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Yes, I read about it in an article years ago. It is believed that the original gypsies [or Roma or Romany] might have migrated from India. The name "gypsy" was attached to them by Europeans that weren't aware of where they came from.I believe that "gypsy" is actually a corruption of the word "egyptian."That's my understanding as well. I did read a book ("Bury Me Standing", IIRC) that traced the history of the Rom gypsies back to India, the tinkerers there, whose name I cannot recall at this time.
Yup. Romany, the language of the Romany people, is an Indic language that evolved from Sanskrit.
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What it would be is variation among a species. Possibly a new race. A human population developing a new skin color is still a human population. Africans, Asians, Europeans, etc. might have different skin colors, but they're still all the same species. None of them have evolved past human.
It seems you're mistaking speciation for the whole of evolution. However, there are other outcomes of evolution like structural adaptation (which is where the production/reduction of melanin in a population generally falls under). Also, "race" is really an outmoded concept as applied to human populations, but that's a whole other topic.
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That is what I would like to see. So even if the Shoanti are culturally like X with some Y and Z mixed in, they can be ehtnically like A, B, and C. I now have a shortcut to how they behave and what they look like, and I am not locked into them being just some cheap fantasy knockoff verging on stereotype of any of those groups.
Personally, I like this approach. (Then again, it's kinda what I did with the setting I created--I wanted to ensure that none of the cultures/ethnicities matched-up exactly with any real world cultures/ethnicities while still drawing inspiration from them.)
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It seems you're mistaking speciation for the whole of evolution.
Sometimes when I ask a question, someone will say to me, "But I thought you knew everything." To which I reply, "Asking questions is how I learn." So please don't think me stupid, ignorant, or uninformed when I ask... What does this mean?
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Why are we necessarily looking at this from a evolutionary perspective? The Varisians, Chelaxians and Shoanti likely have parables as to why they look the way they do which, unlike the theories of early RL cultures, could be entirely true. In a magical world cultural self identification isn't book-ended by Darwinism. These are people for whom wives tales and racial biases could be entirely fact.
Why are Varisians olive skinned and dark haired? Because Desna is.
Why are Chelaxians pale and raven haired? Because they're all descended from just one man, Aroden, and that was his coloration.
Why do the Shoanti look so diverse? Because the totems of each tribe calls to them people whose image pleases them.
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Why are Varisians olive skinned and dark haired? Because Desna is.Why are Chelaxians pale and raven haired? Because they're all descended from just one man, Aroden, and that was his coloration.
Why do the Shoanti look so diverse? Because the totems of each tribe calls to them people whose image pleases them.
Winner.
Contributor
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Winner.
Why are Varisians olive skinned and dark haired? Because Desna is.Why are Chelaxians pale and raven haired? Because they're all descended from just one man, Aroden, and that was his coloration.
Why do the Shoanti look so diverse? Because the totems of each tribe calls to them people whose image pleases them.
Agreed. That's some good thinking, Selk. :)
Selk wins the thread! *passes out cookies*
1]A change in pigmentation isn't evolution.
It is if the change was driven by selective pressures with in the population (keep in mind there really isn't a difference in micro and macro evolution other than an arbitrary time component).
2]10,000 would be enough time for a separate gene pool to change pigmention. But yes, I agree that it wouldn't necessarily HAVE to happen.
Once again, it would only happen if there was a form of selective pressure applied to the population AND if there was not the (re)introduction of these traits back into the population through other sources (like even a small influx of dark skinned travellers mixing with the population, for instance).
The problem with humans is that they no longer really on just their natural adaptations to deal with the environment, so unless there is a non-natural selective pressure applied (genocide, selective breeding, etc.) they wouldn't really have any selective pressures to deal with (since we adapt relatively quickly using just technology) and so you would be unlikely to see any change in humans due to evolutionary forces.
Sean Mahoney
Sometimes when I ask a question, someone will say to me, "But I thought you knew everything." To which I reply, "Asking questions is how I learn." So please don't think me stupid, ignorant, or uninformed when I ask... What does this mean?
The term species is a confusing and poorly defined term. Rather than going into the whole thing here, I would recommend listening to the following:
Listen to episode 104 specifically for the issues with species and its definition (actually a really good series as a whole to listen to if you are interested in hearing about what evolution actually is and the data supporting it... agree or disagree at least you won't have straw man ideas about what it is).
Sean Mahoney
I think I need to revise the title of my thread.
How does "Who Has The Bigger Brain Contest" sound?
or
We can go with "I'm smarter than you - and I have LOADS of extra time to prove it!"
... The way some (i.e. most) threads go/evolve/end-up - does at the minimum, give me a good laugh...
Are there any blond, blue-eyed humans in Golarion? What ethnicity would they be? Chelaxian?
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Winner.
Why are Varisians olive skinned and dark haired? Because Desna is.Why are Chelaxians pale and raven haired? Because they're all descended from just one man, Aroden, and that was his coloration.
Why do the Shoanti look so diverse? Because the totems of each tribe calls to them people whose image pleases them.
Agreed. That's exactly how I feel: How fantasy races came about is less important than how they think they came about.
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Sometimes when I ask a question, someone will say to me, "But I thought you knew everything." To which I reply, "Asking questions is how I learn." So please don't think me stupid, ignorant, or uninformed when I ask... What does this mean?The term species is a confusing and poorly defined term. Rather than going into the whole thing here, I would recommend listening to the following:
Listen to episode 104 specifically for the issues with species and its definition (actually a really good series as a whole to listen to if you are interested in hearing about what evolution actually is and the data supporting it... agree or disagree at least you won't have straw man ideas about what it is).
Sean Mahoney
Thanks, Sean! I will listen to the podcasts as soon as I'm able too. :)
Sometimes when I ask a question, someone will say to me, "But I thought you knew everything." To which I reply, "Asking questions is how I learn." So please don't think me stupid, ignorant, or uninformed when I ask... What does this mean?The term species is a confusing and poorly defined term. Rather than going into the whole thing here, I would recommend listening to the following:
Listen to episode 104 specifically for the issues with species and its definition (actually a really good series as a whole to listen to if you are interested in hearing about what evolution actually is and the data supporting it... agree or disagree at least you won't have straw man ideas about what it is).
Sean Mahoney
Thanks for the heads up on the podcast. The topic interests me and podcasts are a great for work.
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It seems you're mistaking speciation for the whole of evolution.Sometimes when I ask a question, someone will say to me, "But I thought you knew everything." To which I reply, "Asking questions is how I learn." So please don't think me stupid, ignorant, or uninformed when I ask... What does this mean?
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you're stupid/foolish/whatever. Nobody here is all-knowing--certainly not me (oh, how it pains me to admit that). ;) Learning is good, so always ask questions. :)
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Sometimes when I ask a question, someone will say to me, "But I thought you knew everything." To which I reply, "Asking questions is how I learn." So please don't think me stupid, ignorant, or uninformed when I ask... What does this mean?The term species is a confusing and poorly defined term. Rather than going into the whole thing here, I would recommend listening to the following:
Listen to episode 104 specifically for the issues with species and its definition (actually a really good series as a whole to listen to if you are interested in hearing about what evolution actually is and the data supporting it... agree or disagree at least you won't have straw man ideas about what it is).
Sean Mahoney
Kickass! Thanks for the link, Sean. :)
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I believe that "gypsy" is actually a corruption of the word "egyptian."That's my understanding as well. I did read a book ("Bury Me Standing", IIRC) that traced the history of the Rom gypsies back to India, the tinkerers there, whose name I cannot recall at this time.
Yes, I read about it in an article years ago. It is believed that the original gypsies [or Roma or Romany] might have migrated from India. The name "gypsy" was attached to them by Europeans that weren't aware of where they came from.
As for the Terminology you are looking for, as for Indian proto-gypsies, the two indigenous groups you are probably looking for are either known as the banjara or the vagri (though the last one is often an epithet associated with thievery).
I found out when I got into the LARP scene and Ren Faires that I was actually "playing reality" as I have family ties to the Banjara.
Go figure. Nothing really too concrete in so far as living relations, but it was a very cool revelation as my primary PC is a gypsy in Ravenloft.
If you like I can go on .... my group got heavily into researching and studying the real-world gypsies to model a fantasy equivalent off of them and various other nomadic traditions not included by the term. So we hit a couple college libraries, the internet, local bookstores and managed to piece together the most popular and substantiated theories:
Anyways, if you have further interest in the topic in question, what may help your research is understanding that a BUNCH of Nomadics from Indigineous Indian population(s) went out in all different directions throughout variou periods, in various waves of migrations due to religious persecution, state oppression, simple migration or following herds, as well as trade/commerce.
The three major groups by which Self Professed Gypsies are divided academically and internally are the Rom, Dom and Lom, short for Romani, Domari and Lomavren. This of course leaves out external elements like the Irish Travellers, and the Pikees, to name just a few.
The Lom are known for running around the Southeast Asian region, if I'm not mistaken and have much indian blood in them as well. A bunch of proto-Indians (post Aryan conquest and Indus Valley) ran up to Russia and influences can be seen in Kossack culture amongst other strains. Finally the Domari are the Middle-Eastern Native Gypsies who bounced back and forth to-and-from India & Persia and then finally Westward through Iraq/Iran and assimilated the local culture(s) as they went. The Dom stayed whilst those known as the Rom continued through to Egypt. By the time they reached Rome, they were asked from whence they came, and given persecution recieved all around replied "Egypt", hence Gyptians and eventually Gypsies.
When reaching the rest of Europe, the same question incited replies of "Rome", begetting the term "Romani"
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I figured I could resurrect this thread - now that the Chronicles Gazetteer is released and the side-bars of the various human ethnic groupings are displayed with a short description and picture - perhaps those of us who do benefit from having some comparisons to real-world parallels can use that as fodder for discuss on our takes on things....
Robert
Well,
If we're all done talking about evolution and other distractions from the actual thread topic - I'd for one, still like to know what the He!! a Varisian looks like.
I love the flavor of the different Pathfinder races - still don't know what they look like.
Well,
If we're all done talking about evolution and other distractions from the actual thread topic - I'd for one, still like to know what the He!! a Varisian looks like.
I love the flavor of the different Pathfinder races - still don't know what they look like.
I suspect they should look like whatever you want them to look like.
I know a guy who could pass for an Irishman (red hair, pale skin) who is from Portugal, and another who could pass for Spanish and speaks with a Yankee accent who is actually Vietnamese.
In a land not separated by significant physical barriers and where war has raged for a long time, a lot of human racial mixing and traveling is bound to occur. Given such, any human color/language/physique combination could reasonably be found anywhere.
Distinction may be drawn by cultural elements, but these are typically regional and situational, not physiological.
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Well,
If we're all done talking about evolution and other distractions from the actual thread topic - I'd for one, still like to know what the He!! a Varisian looks like.
I love the flavor of the different Pathfinder races - still don't know what they look like.
there's are beautiful pictures of them throughout many of the books. Curse of the Crimson Throne part 1 had a good write up on them (pathfinder 7), theres an attractive picture of one on page 15 in the new Gazetteer.
To give you my impression - the pictures look like Vistani of Ravenloft - very stereo-typed gypsy types from Hunchback (disney animated movie) or those on the Bram Stokers Dracula movie w/ Keanu Reeves.
Robert
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That's pretty much what we were aiming for. :)
And you have succeeded!
I have had Vistani as a race of humans in my homebrew world for years - having been a big fan of Ravenloft setting, it was one of the aspects I really did enjoy and thus carried it over.
So for me, the existance of the Varisians is a seamless transition for combining aspects of my homegame with Golarion. I also have a Persian/Byzantine Empire type race called Shalosian who are master horselords which is very similar to the Kellishite - with perhaps a little cross-over with your Garundi. Again would be able to crossover without too much difficulty. I also have a viking culture of the north called Tordish (put the little double dot symbol over the O) which mirror the Ulfen of course. The one thing that I have trouble matching up would be a race within the Gazetteer that would best resemble the people of Gondor from Lord of the Rings - which I also have that type as an influence.
Robert
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Contributor
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The one thing that I have trouble matching up would be a race within the Gazetteer that would best resemble the people of Gondor from Lord of the Rings - which I also have that type as an influence.
Yeah, we don't really have one of those noble sort of Roman-esque type peoples. Such a person would probably be a mutt of Chelaxian and Taldan, bu without all the ego and snobbery of those two ethnicities.
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The one thing that I have trouble matching up would be a race within the Gazetteer that would best resemble the people of Gondor from Lord of the Rings - which I also have that type as an influence.Yeah, we don't really have one of those noble sort of Roman-esque type peoples. Such a person would probably be a mutt of Chelaxian and Taldan, bu without all the ego and snobbery of those two ethnicities.
Ah, thanks Mike. then I will have to import my Astorian race (which is a mix of the Shalosian and Tordish. - so it is interesting that you said such a race could be a mix of Cheliax and Taldan.) :-)
Thanks
Robert