I wouldn't bet on 3.75 personally. Despite the numerous protestations of loyalty unto death, the majority of players and Paizo customers will switch to 4E next year or the year after that. People want the new hawtness, they want to be part of the majority, and most of them don't want to be considered eccentric fringe groupies. They will convert unless 4E is a total writeoff, which is unlikely. I won't be committing to 4E personally because I don't play much anymore, but from a business standpoint it's smartest to go with the pack.
I believe the question wasn't whether they would switch to 4E or not but would you still buy the third Pathfinder adventure path if it was 3.5 and not 4E (due to not having the 4E SRD in enough time to complete it)?
I do think Paizo will need to switch to 4e eventually. However, if you dont have time to playtest or see the OGL, I would say wait until you can. Dungeon helped get my group back to playing and we love Pathfinder. Might we want to switch after the third AP, sure. However Im sure you all will have a better feel by then for 4e. Id rather not see a poor 3rd AP because you were forced to rush.
Since you asked, here's where I stand: I would be much more likely to subscribe to Pathfinder and your other D20 lines if I knew Paizo were sticking with v.3.5 or was launching its own compatible "3.75" RPG. To date, I've been reluctant to sign on because of the uncertainty regarding whether your materials would convert to 4E next year. I have zero interest in 4E for reasons many and varied and, while I fully understand why Paizo and other third party publishers would see the economic necessity to convert, there is no such necessity for me, as either a player or a DM. So long as there was a good chance that Pathfinder's 3.5 days were literally numbered, I've refrained from committing myself to it, even though it's almost exactly what I want in a D20 support magazine.
If you stay with v.3.5 or produce your own compatible RPG, count me in for the long haul. I'll happily pull the trigger and subscribe to both Pathfinder and GameMastery, both of which I've hesitated on doing, because of the specter of 4E. If you go 4E, you have my best wishes and perhaps the occasional purchase here and there but that's all. I'm only one cantankerous guy, however, so take this as you will.
Contributor
|
Until then, own the 3.5 adventure market, m'boy... own it.Yes. What he said.
And also, to add my hubby's voice and thoughts..."Have any of the normal contributing authors offered to write something to make Pathfinder a separate RPG?"
Just a thought. :)
I did, as soon as the Dragon/Dungeon licenses lapsed. Mostly I was ridiculed at the time for seeing it as a sign that 4E was coming.
Personally, the route I would go would be to fill in the blamks in the SRD (character gen, experience etc.) and fix some of the rougher patches, and just go. That way, people can keep using their compatible material from other publishers. And, you know, the people who want a whole new system are already getting one.
I've built a new card-driven character generation system with themes based on the seven sins, similar to my 3DA sytem, but much more detailed and yet streamlined. You don't need tokens, everything gets read right off of the cards, and I've included options for race, class, flaws, traits, and a few other things.
My group and I are sticking with 3.5 for *at least* another couple of years. I'd be thrilled if Paizo did too. You guys have proven again and again that you "get" our style of play more than Hasbro does. Y'all can count on our support for as long as you stick with 3.5. (and most likely even if you don't.)
It's like with comics: I read comics based on the creative team attached; not because of the character or publisher. You guys have the best writers. I'm sticking with you guys.
I'll be quick, as I'm at work. Otherwise I'd give this the more indepth response it deserves.
I'll continue my GameMastery and Pathfinder subs (and continue buying supplemental material like Flip-Mats, Map Packs, Item Card, etc) as long as Paizo keeps on putting out consistent high quality products like you have over the last 3+ years.
If you go to 4th, I'll follow. If you stay 3.5, I'll keep on buying too.
And if you make a 3.75 version, I'd buy it too, as I would expect it to be high quality.
*And this deserves more of its own thread, but what would you "fix" in 3.5 if you made a new edition? Perhaps make gnome ninjas a core class? ;-)
|
Let me first thank Erik for being forthright as always, and having the courage to ask questions WOTC might not want him to. I am amazed and impressed by the awesomeness that is Paizo.
My vote? I have spent thousands on the game of D&D since my parents bought me the AD&D 1st edition core books over thirty years ago. I was a 1st Ed stalwart for five years after 2nd Ed. came out; then I switched. I embraced the coming of 3rd Ed (and consequently 3.5) as it melded D&D with my other favorite system, Rolemaster. Trust me when I say that I have no intention of buying any 4th Edition materials. 3.5 is the perfect system for me; I see no need to tweak the system any further. Not to mention that I have no more desire to spend more hardearned dough on yet another set of core rules. The buck stops here.
I want Paizo to stay 3.5 to the end. I will continue to buy Gamemastery and Pathfinder modules if this is the case. In fact, Paizo's stuff would be the only gaming materials I would continue to buy.
Thanks again for being the only gaming company so far to have the bravery not to blindly embrace the 'new, improved' system that is being shoved down our collective throats by the WOTC PR machine.
|
Just in case you forum watchdogs are keeping track out there, I am breaking my vow not to post here on the 4e board because it is Erik asking. :>
Erik, the short answer is that if you produce it, I will buy it. If you stay 3.5, then that is what my players and I will do as well. If you move to 4e, then I will move with you, even if I continue with an AP from Dungeon for a year or more before joining you at the 4e table.
I do not say this because I am some blindly loyal lapdog, but because Paizo produces a superior product, primarily game content and the meaningful rules extensions that accompany it. The core rules can change; I trust you and the rest of Paizo to make the right decision for your business and the game as a whole when the time comes because for years you have shown me that that is who you are. As long as your goals are clear, your reasoning explained and your product superior (and right now WotC has a HUGE hill to climb in that department), I will buy your products regardless if I am using them at the moment. I was proud to support Paizo when WotC ended its business relationship with Paizo, knowing that my money was going to the people that would make the best use of it for the betterment of the game. I have been thrilled with the Gamemastery and Pathfinder products that resulted from that support and have purchased a number of accessories since that time and encouraged my friends to do the same. If WotC once again decides to freeze Paizo out of the market, either directly (no OGL/SRD) or indirectly (publishing the OGL/SRD too late to allow 3rd parties to make splashes at GenCon in an effort to grab market share), then you can expect yet more support from me.
Mr. Mona,
Being of a certain curmudgeonly age, I would prefer to stick with 3.x (be it 3.5 or 3.75) for the rest of my life.
That said, I agree with those posting above who say think that 4.0 is inevitable unless it is seriously sub-standard. I also think that out of the gate it will be riddled with flaws.
I just hope that Paizo chooses a prudent time to make the switch and can maintain the fine quality of your product.
Inflammatory
You can count on my continued custom should you change.
Thank you.
I'm for staying with 3.5 and/or a Pathfinder RPG that functions as 3.75
4th Edition may turn out to be a decent game - but I'm not going to be able to have an opinion until maybe a year after they release it (as one person on these boards put it 4E is the Vista of Gaming, it' going to be months if not years before it is steady on its legs). From what WotC has said it will be a different game by far than 3.5 and I have a hard time seeing how they are going to make Eberron fit into the new rules - already they're doing major changes to Forgotten Realms to deal with rules changes. #.5 has flaws, but you know - with a good gaming group they're not a problem for me.
And that brings me to content & trust. I like what Paizo does. I trust they'll keep me informed so I can make a timely decision how to spend my money. I can't guarantee my business will keep Paizo afloat, but I can say I like Golarion & Pathfinder enough I'd rather spend money on Golarion/Pathfinder 3.5 stuff I know I'll like instead of "4dventure" I have deep misgivings about. And if Paizo switches to 4E, my doubts about 4E will outweigh my liking for Golarion/Pathfinder.
It's a moot point to be sure, but I think WotC/HASBRO would have been better off to keep 3.5 as it is with maybe somewhat reduced production of new material - and put out a new game on it's own merits with it's own name/Brand. They seem to think they can keep the Brand name while changing the content of that Brand. It's not working that way for me. I was hesitant about 3.0 when it came out, but it managed the difficult task of updating the rules while keeping the spirit of things, winning me over. Paizo was a large part in that in the guise of Dragon & Dungeon magazines. 4E seems intent on killing the spirit first and trying entirely new rules. Gleemax and the online magazines leave me cold at best and disgusted at worst (anything related to "Gleemax" is like driving an icepick thru my eye).
Anyway, I'm voting for 3.5 as Paizo's future. 4E is to me functionally a new system and I don't want to change.
|
As it stands now, I expect that we'll finish up Rise of the Runelords about the time 4th edition ships (we play slowly, what can I say?)
I've found Paizo's adventure paths to be of very high quality, in Dungeon and now in Pathfinder, and it's how I like running adventures - sure, I may wish I still had the time to design them myself, but I don't. I was hoping that path 3 would be 4th edition, making it easy to switch over at that time. I'm very tired of 3.5 at the moment.
If you don't switch, I'm honestly not sure what we'd wind up doing. We might stick with the 3.5 adventure paths, and do Second Darkness, or the second one (name escapes me at the moment...) Or we might try some random 4th edition stuff. I'm no more sure that Erik is, at the moment, or so it seems...
Drew Garrett
Erik,
Paizo has my loyalty and support. To be truthful, I do not want to buy a single 4E product from WoTC. I may not even if Pathfinder is converted, but I will still support Pathfinder & GameMastery. Would I love to see a Pathfinder RPG? Yes. Is it feasible to split the market at this crucial juncture and stay profitable? I wish I had a time machine to answer that.
If/when Pathfinder/Gamemastery switches to 4.0, I'll probably end up cancelling the subscriptions. Here is my reeasoning:
1) I've got too much money tied up in the 3.5 material, so it's not worth it to me to buy material that isn't 3.5.
2) I don't have the time I would need to do the conversions (if it's even possible) from 4.0 back to 3.5.
3) Our group doesn't play often enough to make it worth it. Right now, it's once a month if we are lucky. Having family responsibilities makes it difficult to play more often than that. Now, once my daughter is a couple of years older, we'll see if I can change that!
4) Right now, my wife is cool with me subscribing to them, but if I attempt to throw in new books when I have at least 30 on my shelf, I may end up needing a proctologist to have the ones she gets ahold of removed (if you understand my meaning) ;)
I love Pathfinder so far, and the Gamemastery modules are great. I'll be there as long as Paizo is with 3.5 or '3.75'. If not, I've got 3 great APs from Dungeon and at least 2 or 3 Pathfinder APs to use.
No matter which way Paizo goes, I hope it works out well.
Thoughts (numbered just because):
1) On some level WoTC is Dungeons and Dragons . . . I understand that each group, DM, player, and 3rd Party publisher add to the game; however, WoTC owns the name and has the money. This worries me on two accounts -- I think despite what a lot of anti-4e people feel, WoTC has the marketing clout to make 4e the biggest RPG. Chances are, that withing a year or two, many more people will be playing 4e than 3.5. Secondly, I would hate for a schism to erupt between WoTC and Paizo. By that I mean, I would hate for the owners of the game I love be unable to work cooperatively with the what I think is the most passionate/skilled set of designers in the game.
2) Let us assume that the bulk of RPG (pen and paper) spending in the next few years will be 4e and 4e supplements. Is there a large enough slice of the pie for Paizo to flourish with 3.5, 3.75 material? Or does it only work for, lets say, 1 1/2 years before they realize that 4e is really, really gaining steam?
I guess I am concerned about the viability of not switching, and can offer no definite answers because it seems like such a 50/50 proposition right now. Either 4e will blow people away and be super popular, or there will continue for the forseeable future to be enough people interested in the 3.5 ruleset and Paizo's take on it. Both can be true, but not concurrently methinks.
I cannot say that I will continue or not continue to purchase 3.5(3.75) material though. It depends on my group, they are the people who tell me what game they want to run. They are very torn right now. That being said, I will always find a way to finacially support Paizo products because of the level of passion and creativity in their games, and the completely unrivaled customer service they offer.
|
|
I will follow Paizo regardless of the decision.
Why? Because it is a campany putting out quality product with a great customer support and a crew that LISTENS to its customer base.
Even though I might switch to 4.0 at a date of my convenience (something like 2009 or 2010), I will continue to support Paizo, because I know that (nearly) everything I buy will be extremely good.
I haven't bought Downer and some of the Map Packs and Compleat Enconters... I have a COMPLETE run of Dungeon and a HUGE amount of Dragon magazines + everything of Pathfinder and the GameMastery modules so far - except for any issues still in mailing limbo, but at least the PDF's are there). I do not need to buy anything new for the next 50 years or so, but I want to, because I see the need for a company like Paizo (and Green Ronin and Necromancer and Fiery Dragon and Goodman and Troll Lords and... you get my drift).
Companies that produce quality stuff get my money.
|
Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around?
...
But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?What do YOU want Paizo to do?
For sure. Badly. Absolutely not. Go for 3.75 and rule the market.
As I'm firmly sticking to the 3.X ruleset, Paizo can count me as a customer for any future products written with the current system.
I'm very interested in the possibility of a Paizo custom-built 3.75 manual.
The Pathfinder world will be my default game setting, and as such any AP will be a products of interest.
To be honest I hope that Paizo goes independent, as the declared power creep for the core classes and faster-game changes announced for 4e are quite abhorrent to me.
I'm quite on the fence regarding any future Paizo 4e products, as I'll have to give a serious look at the rules and how they affect third-party gaming material.
Finally, Erik thanks for involving the community in this kind of discussion. It's what makes Paizo a great company.
Luca
I like what I have seen of 4e so far and I am not that much concerned about sacrificing cows (although I've been playing since 2e). There will be lots of changes but I'm not afraid of them since I have hopes that the new edition will make my job as a DM easier.
So I guess I'm one of the ones who wish that Paizo will convert soon so they can show Wotc how to do it properly.
I'll go back and read the rest of the thread in just a minute, but I already have my answer to your question Erik.
PAIZO GOLEM FOR PRESIDENT!
I'm with Paizo all the way. I still am working on convincing my wife to allow me to do preorders and subscriptions, but I am buying all your products right when they hit stores in my area. I have not been disappointed by something you guys have published yet. Even if it something that I am not going to use, I still think, 'Hey, D-boy could use this (a fellow DM and friend).'
I do not base my rating of a product solely on whether the content is suited just to my style of DMing. Besides, for Dungeon, there was always one adventure in each issue that I have plans for...far too many plans.
I will stick with Paizo for 3.5, 3.75, whatever you guys go to.
Even *shudder* 4th edition, should you guys transition. I need excellent content, adventures, theme and personality from the products I buy. You guys deliver it all with attitude. Besides, just from your online attitudes and posts, I actually like you guys. A novel approach to keeping players and DMs interested in the production company that WotC should consider.
|
Erik,
Thanks for asking. My group's current plan is to stick with 3.5e for the foreseeable future. Any transition to 4e would likely not occur until 2-3 years into the new edition.
The various reasons voiced by my group are:
- "I've spent too much money on 3e/3.5e books to start over next year."
- After playing 3e/3.5e since their launch, we just don't feel like switching over. Sure 3.5e has problems. 4e will also have problems. They'll probably just be different problems.
- Thanks to the Dungeon AP's and 2 or 3 pathfinder AP's, we have enough gaming material to last years. Why switch when we have a long-term supply of viable material?
Regardless of my group's upgrade status, I plan to continue buying Pathfinder and Gamemastery modules. Mostly because I like reading them and I'm really digging the setting.
If Pathfinder doesn't switch to 4e until AP4 or even 5, I'm perfectly happy with that. I'm not a fan of the 3.75e idea. It doesn't make sense to me to come up with a set of "Paizo House Rules" that a number of gamers probably won't use anyway. I mean, if I (or my group) doesn't agree with something, then we have to go and house rule the house rule. I think it creates a mose confusing jumble of rules that are probably temporary anyway.
I think the transition to 4e is inevitable. Paizo's question in my mind is, "how long should we take until it happens?" My answer to Paizo would be, "take your time and transition when you're comfortable with the new rules."
-Skeld
Chief Technical Officer
|
Should make this into a poll...It kinda already is.
I proposed that poll at lunch without knowing Erik was working on the first post in this thread!
Please do go vote over there, even if you've already chimed in here. You're allowed to change your vote whenever you like, and we'd like to be able to get a sense of what people are thinking as Wizards reveals new information.
Personally, I'm really leaning towards not converting right away - perhaps never. I've purchased a lot of 3.5 books and adventures and I'm not really looking forward to buying a whole slew of new books filled with rehashed stuff with a new spin. If Paizo were to stick with 3.5 or create their own upgraded rules that were compatible with the old rules I think I would be supremely happy.
Where ever Paizo goes, I will go. I am with you all for the long haul.
|
|
Should make this into a poll...It kinda already is.I proposed that poll at lunch without knowing Erik was working on the first post in this thread!
Please do go vote over there, even if you've already chimed in here. You're allowed to change your vote whenever you like, and we'd like to be able to get a sense of what people are thinking as Wizards reveals new information.
Done and done!
The only thing I like so far is the new warlock, and that doesn't push me to new system--just steal that hubcap and put it on my own 3.5 mobile.
What do you like about the new one Heathy? Just curious.
|
Director of Narrative
|
In the nearly two decades I've been playing D&D not a single group I've played with has immediately switched over to the newest edition. We have eventually. It has usually been a minimum of 1.5 years before the transition. I didn't switch to 3e until right before 3.5 came out. Damned bad timing and lack of news! So I can't imagine the groups I game with switching anytime soon.
That said, I am going to buy the new edition when it comes out for the same reason a few of my fellow freelancers have mentioned. You've got to know the system to write for it.
With the slow response from WotC it looks like y'all are being left with a mess, and I'm not going to chime in with business advice other than to say that if the quality of product continues, you'll see my cash support on a regular basis.
|
|
Erik - I will be continuing my subscription either way.
I think WotC does not want ANY 3rd party competition at the lunch of 4e. IF they do decide to release a 4e OGL I think it will be after GenCon. If that holds true, I can see Paizo continuing with 3.5 for Pathfinder until they see a copy of the OGL and have a chance to integrate it into their publishing schedule. I am guessing that might be another year after 4e releases...
I will not be dropping 3.5 the second 4e comes out. I will be waiting to see how other people like it before spending time beta testing 4e.
Bottom line - Paizo seems to treat the game the way I want to see it treated. Once the 4e rules are out there, if Paizo decides to adopt them, I have a feeling I will like what they do with them. If on the other hand, Pazio sees the new rules and does not think they feel like the D&D we currently know, and decides to stick with 3.5 for the foreseeable future, I have a feeling that will be my reaction to the new rules too.
|
|
The only thing I like so far is the new warlock, and that doesn't push me to new system--just steal that hubcap and put it on my own 3.5 mobile.What do you like about the new one Heathy? Just curious.
It's got those infernal powers from...elsewhere. It just looks gnarley, wicked fun. I'm reminded of Melniboneans to some extent.
It pumps me with "jacked-up villainesque" vibes, BBEG vibes. Kooky C'thulhu cultis vibes. That kinda thing.I'm seeing a mutant nephew of Chaugnar Faugn going the new warlock route.
This would be a tough decision with too many unanswered questions right now. I like Paizo (probably the best adventure designers out there right now), love the APs and the new world setting, but I do think 3.5 could stand for some improvement. In fact, lately, the few moments I get to play, I am always thinking, "I hope this rule mechanic is improved for 4.0."
I guess it depends on how 4.0 turns out and how a Pathfinder RPG turns out. Then there is the matter that I already have a lot of APs for 3.5 that could last me for several years. If new APs aren't supporting 4.0, I'm not sure I need many more. Add the fact that WotC plans to do something like the APs, then in all honesty, I don't know what I'll do. I guess it's all a matter of quality.
It also depends on my players and what they think. They have no special love for Paizo and probably are only half aware that the Dungeon AP I'm running is published by a company called Paizo. If they want 4.0, then 4.0 they are likely to get. But then again, they have a lot invested in 3.5 too...
Short answer: don't know; too many unknown factors.
Erik Mona, you are the greatest. I have never felt so in touch with any publisher. Paizo regularly keeps in contact with there fans through these boards. WOW!!!
I plan to switch to 4e. next year. Currently my group is playing through STAP and loving it. But we should be playing this campaign until next summer. I hope that Paizo would publish an adventure path in 4e. by that time. But it doesn't look good at this point ,since WotC has not shared the 4e rules with Paizo.
I really don't see myself playing 3.75 next year, even if the wonderful people of Paizo publish it.
Boy this really pisses me off. I think 3rd party publishers was a shot in the arm for D&D as a whole, when 3rd edition was released. For WotC to just ignore Paizo and other publishers, seems just arrogant. I cannot help but think WotC is willing to dump everyone who have supported D&D for years, the old school fans, third party publishers, to attract young TCG and morpg players. If this is WotC approach and they can't produce the quality of supporting material that I have become accustomed too with Paizo, then I may just drop D&D 4e.
But personally I hope WotC gets there act together. I think someone over there is making some bad decisions, based on a really self centered view. It just seems things are poorly managed over WotC. The lack luster debut of Dungeon and Dragon online. The condencending approach to 4e PR, with an apprehensive, sensitive fan base. Now the lack of communication with 3rd party publishers, especially Paizo, A spin off of WotC, to publish periodicals(correct me if I'm wrong).
I would like to see 4e. products from Paizo, if not in 2008 then in 2009. But if WotC doesn't want to do business with you folks or just so out of touch they dropped the ball in intergrating 3rd party publishers in the release of 4e, then I say F&$% them. Produce 3.Paizo D&D, with the same quality as always and compete against WotC. May the best publishers win.
P.S. Boy at this point, my bet is on Paizo.
|
|
I know I'm in the minority here, but if Paizo doesn't eventually shift over to 4.0 I will likely end my subscription to all Paizo products.
Before I say why, I would like to add the following.
I have been a fan of Erik Mona's since the old aol days and the greyhawk groups. He, and some other people who have migrated Paizo's direction, really understood that setting and added wonderful depth to an unsupported milieu. Since "fluff" transcends editions, I have been able to use stuff from back then up until the present day.
I am also a huge fan of Mystara and have lamented the lack of 3.0/3.5 support for the setting. Paizo is as guilty as anyone else here. No, placing the Isle of Dread on Oerth doesn't count, in some ways it's annoying -- even though the adventure path roxxord. It would be like placing Castle Amber in Eberron...oh...wait...I did that in my home game.
Now for the reason I wouldn't continue buying new stuff from Paizo if they don't update at some point, they don't have to do so right away.
Reason #1: I own a game store worth of D&D products including every module for D&D (Mystara), all the classic Greyhawk adventures, and well...pretty much everything ever. There are only a couple of small exceptions, but those items are so rare as to be unobtainable by most people. I also own every 3.0/3.5 book by WotC and a good number from Green Ronin, Mongoose, and Fantasy Flight. I have enough merchandise to run 3.0/3.5 campaigns until I die.
Reason #2: By the time any 4.0 shift would happen, I would have two to three "GameMastery" campaigns that I could run in 3.0/3.5 all the way to 20th level. Given my group, that's 4 years of gaming time just based on the first Pathfinder AP and the first set of GameMastery novels.
Reason #3: I will be purchasing 4.0 and I will be in dire need of GOOD adventures. I work a full time job, hence why I am less price sensitive than many on these boards, and I don't have time to "add levels" to NPCs or "advance monsters" let alone write detailed adventure plans. The flowcharts I currently write are as far as I can delve into design, other than that I need some stat blocks and adventure ideas are a bonus as well. And for those who say, "you really do have the time." Um...no, I don't. 50 hours a week at work, 20+ hours a week attending/studying for graduate school classes, a wife who I like to date, and twins on the way. Sorry, no time to spend 10+ hours a week designing adventures of any where near Paizo's quality.
Reason #4: Which is an extension of 3. Though "fluff transcends editions," crunch doesn't and I need those stat blocks. I really like Varisia, and would love to run adventures in it using the 4.0 rules.
Reason #5: I will be shifting to 4.0. Why? Because 3.0/3.5 character creation and bookkeeping has attained a Gurps-like level of options. I want to start over, from scratch, with some new options, but with a lot fewer of them. I don't like telling my players that I "just don't want to deal" with feat a or feat b, it's just not my personality. Besides, I also like to try new things.
All of this comes from someone who has, if you include the archive, every issue of Dragon and every Paizo issue of Dungeon.
I write this knowing that my opinion likely doesn't really matter, that I will likely be flamed, and that my love of the d20 mini-games in Dungeon didn't save those either. It's amazing how many people thought "whole games are out of place in Dungeon or Dragon magazine." I guess the once a year I pull out Crimefighters from Dragon 47 isn't most people's experience.
I love the game, and I love a lot of what Paizo is doing, but what I will need in the future is 4.0 stuff and not great 3.5 stuff that can be adapted. I don't have time to adapt.
Christian Johnson
It also depends on my players and what they think. They have no special love for Paizo and probably are only half aware that the Dungeon AP I'm running is published by a company called Paizo.
that sounds like my players. Honestly, concerning D&D, my gaming group will follow my lead and go where I go. Fi I switch to 4e. then so will they. If I decide to stay 3.5 or go 3.Paizo, so will they.
The only thing I like so far is the new warlock, and that doesn't push me to new system--just steal that hubcap and put it on my own 3.5 mobile.What do you like about the new one Heathy? Just curious.
So I'm a Nick Logue fan. Will Mr. Logue write for Paizo, if Paizo decides to produce 3.Paizo?
|
What do you think?
I do think that in the past few years, Paizo has delivered what I consider the best value in the RPG industries. As long as you publish this kind of quality, I'll be buying it.
Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around?
As long as I'll find players willing to play 3.5, I'll stick around. And I'd rather convert the AP to 4E than to dismiss it. I don't care for the rules so much. What I care for is the love and the respect with which you treat your products.
I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days?
I scan WotC's page for the daily news, but in fact, I'm not so eager to spend my money even on the Core Rules (which I'll for sure do nonetheless). As I said rules aren't my main concern. What concerns me more is that nearly all books published by WotC in the recent past which I consider to be a real value to the game are written by Paizo Staff members. So even if 4E is a blast they'll probably have to hire you guys to write books I want to spend my money on. ;)
Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
Most probably not. At the moment I'm not able to play at the table so what I'm doing instead is to run some play-by-post games. For my Forgotten Realms campaign, I use some Dungeon Adventures (mostly 3.5 but I use some older pearls as well), the second is an Eberron Conversion of the Age of Worms and the third is a newly started RotRL campaign playing in Varisia. I don't intend to stop these campigns and I don't plan to convert them to 4E neither, so it may take years before I actually take a shot at 4E.
This said, should you start the Second Darkness as a 4E campaign, chances are that I take the opportunity and use it to introduce my players to 4E.What do YOU want Paizo to do?
I want you to be as successful as possible, so if that means to go the 4E route (and I think that eventually you'll have to do it) than by all means do it, I think most of us would go the way with you.
But if you decide to stay 3.5 (or 3.75 or whatever) I'm totally fine with that. If necessary,I can make any conversions I want to, be it setting- or be it systemwise.So please do whatever YOU think to be the best thing to do. As long as you keep your standards high, I'll follow.
|
|
I'm in as long as you decide to stay with 3.5 I honestly have little to no interest in 4ed which to me feels like "Dungeons and DragonzBall Z". Dragon tail sweep. meh.
After a switch to 4ed, i'd likely still be interested because of the outstanding quality of your product, but paying pathfinder's cost for what would essentially amount to a half completed product would be difficult to justify in the long run. Bear in mind that from my viewpoint it would be 1/2 finished, as I'd have to reverse convert everything to 3.5 and use reams of print outs with the book (even if you gave us conversion docs).
If 4ed turns out as I expect (and I agree with you Erik) I'd love for Paizo to stay with 3.5ed.
Good luck,
The 'Ling
I will buy Pathfinder for the forseeable future, as long as it is 3.5. Should it go to 4.0, my default decision would be to unsubscribe though I'd have to consider the value of keeping it for the 2nd half of the book.
I don't favor a "3.75" edition to clutter the field, but I will buy any Pathfinder RPG/Setting released. Period.
What do I want Paizo to do?
Who am I? nobody, really. Just another nerd from the herd. I dont know much about business, or the gaming industry (I wimped out of the Open Call because of the tight schedule, despite long harboured ambitions). I confess I skipped most of this thread, too (its late here, I have work in the morning).
But its a big question, and I'd say - what your doing now, thats what I'd want Paizo to do. Editions come and go, but great material is great material. I will probably never run Rise of the Runelords as written. Or Savage Tide, or Shackled City, or Age of Worms. Or any of the other AP's, and probably the Gamemastery series, too. But I love them all. They are just full of great ideas, intersting characters and locations, useful plot hooks and mcguffins. And they're just plain fun to read.
And for as long as that continues, I'll buy whatever Paizo goodies I can get my hands on, because editions come and go, but whatever I'm running, I can never get hold of enough good material, and the lions share of the good stuff I do have comes from Paizo.
If I really gotta choose an edition, I'll be with 3.5 'til my current campaign ends (hopefully not for 2-3 years yet - hey we dont game as often as we'd like, and I never was one for "fast track" level progresion). 4th? I'll wait and see - if the rules are good, maybe I'll switch, but not mid campaign.
But that wont affect wether I buy Paizo stuff or not. If Paizo's stuff maintains the quality I see now, then I'll keep on buying it.
Sorry, I rambled a bit (did I say it was late? ;-) ), but hopefully you got the idea.
|
|
At the 4E announcement, my gaming group discussed it & decided to remain 3.5E. I've seen almost nothing about 4E that I like.
Same with my group. There is no plan to convert at all until the psionics book were to come out and a rogues/skills book.
I will stick with Paizo, whatever their decision, though as long as Golarion does not become Worlds of Warcraft like 4e is shaping to be (but much, much slower), I'll stick with Paizo.
|
|
I certainly sympathize with your situation.
While I certainly find aspects of 4E interesting I am by no means sold. I do plan on buying a copy when it comes out to check it out. However, the idea of a PHB 1-XX makes me quite skeptical of the whole thing.
That being said I have a LOT of money invested in 3.5 So much so that I do not plan on converting any of my games for years. In all honesty I wish more third party companies would choose to continue supporting 3.5 I have no doubt of what-so-ever that a substantial number of gamers will continue to use 3.5 for several more years.
Personally I see the industry divided into three camps.
1st being younger kids who will want something flashy. They will be the future of the game (god help us all). Without appealing to them, a business' long term success is unlikely.
2nd crunchy rules fans are going to rush out and buy 4E right away (like me). Many will switch right away for the shiny new package. Many will decide they like the 3.5 ruleset better.
3rd is the group who play in order to play. I think it is most gamers out there. They will inspect the new system and take a while to pass judgement. However, until they come to something that they just cannot live without I think most of this crowd will stay with what they know. I also figure about 5 years to convert this group.
So as a short term project I think Paizo should go ahead and make 3.75! If you redesign it well enough, I think it could be a real viable competitor to 4E. And let's be honest there is no real competition out there anymore. The industry NEEDS the competition.
Do it and I will support you.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
Erik I would love to see Pathfinder rolling along in 3.5 or 3.paizo edition for as long as possible. Will it end up that way, probably not. The juggernaut that is 4E will likely sweep all the 3rd party publishers along in it's wake (unless the thing is a stillborn abomination which a small part of me wishes).
I've subscribed to both Dungeon & Dragon for the past 13 years and the last 5 have been my favorite under Paizo. I've picked up the crit deck and some equipment decks, like the look of the map packs too. As long as you keep talented writers like Richard Pett, Nicholas Logue, Stephen Greer, Greg Vaughan, James Jacobs, James Buhlman, F. Wesley Schneider et. al. I'll keep snapping up Paizo products. WotC's put a nasty taste in my mouth recently that I'll not soon forget.
|
|
Firstly, I am not a huge buyer of RPG products, so I probably do not represent your ideal target market. BUT, I really really enjoy Paizo’s talent and output, and you guys get the lion’s share of my (admittedly not large) gaming dollar.
I have enough gaming material to play an enjoyable game, and keep playing it for years to come. My main purchases of RPG products are to read the story presented in them, and as such I find Paizo’s products (such as the Gamesmastery modules and Pathfinder) to be far superior in that regard to what I have seen from WotC or most other publishers. I imagine that this will be true regardless of edition.
Having said that, at this stage and for the foreseeable future I intend not to purchase 4E material. Even if 4E is really good (and it may well be), it just doesn’t interest me at this stage. 3.5 satisfies all my needs in a gaming system. Paizo converting to 4E would be the most likely event to prompt me to change my mind on this, but it would still likely not happen for a few years.
My personal preference would be that Paizo stick with 3.5 or upgrade to a “3.75” (3.Paizo) that would still be easily compatable with the core 3.5 rules. That I would certainly buy. If “3.75” was not easily compatible with 3.5 I would see no real benefit in it (people who wanted a new gaming system could just convert to 4E). What I’m getting at there, is that if you guys come up with a cool new rule or ‘take’ on something, I could use that or just use the 3.5 version and either would work. Having said all that, I would still probably buy the occasional 4E Paizo adventures for the enjoyment of reading them.
Thankyou Erik and Paizo for asking our input and keeping us informed.
Build it and they will come.
...Oh, me too, Eric.
A possibly cogent thought:
While there is no question that converting to 4E is the safer bet financially, it has the downside -- how much of a downside I can't know -- of tying Paizo's future to the whims of WotC and, by extension, Hasbro. Let's face it: the revocation of the licenses to produce Dragon and Dungeon had nothing to do with Paizo's plans and everything to do with the new direction WotC has decided to take the game -- the "monetizing" you mentioned, among other things. Going the 4E route, there's no way you can know what WotC has in store and who's to say that a few years after the new edition they don't make some other unexpected change in direction?
Staying with v.3.5 or, better yet, developing your own 3.5-derived Pathfinder RPG puts Paizo in charge of its own destiny. But of course that destiny is one fraught with peril, since many D&D players, maybe even the vast majority of them, will jump to 4E without question. True, Paizo doesn't need to capture even a large percentage of active players to be successful; it doesn't need to pull down WotC numbers. Unfortunately, there's simply no way to guarantee that this approach would succeed, even if it might allow more creative freedom and serve the company better in the long term.
So, it's a tough call and I don't envy Erik or anyone else who has to make it. For purely selfish reasons, I favor staying with v.3.5/3.75 but it's a very risky option.
I'm a Paizo enthusiast and will be continuing to purchase Pathfinder and Gamemastery products as long as they use the 3.5 rules. I'd also be interested in seeing Paizo's take on revising 3.5 with "Pathfinder D&D". I believe the best way of doing a revision on 3.5 is to produce an alternate PHB (such as Arcana Evolved or Iron Heroes) which allows Paizo's adventure products to remain 3.5 compatible for those who would not be using Paizo's upgraded version.
I am the DM for my group and will be staying 3.5 for quite some time (perhaps indefinitely if I keep getting Paizo 3.5 products).
I think the future of Paizo will most likely have to be with upgrading to 4e, but until then I'm a happy customer.
I'm staying with 3.5, so I will keep buying Paizo adventures as long as they are 3.5.
Frankly, the Necromancer, Goodman, and Paizo writers are the ones which seem the most true to the history of the game. 4E is NOT looking like it cares about that history, so therefore I would like Paizo to stay with 3.5 as this edition DOES respect the game's history.
Erik - business decisions aside, what do you WANT to do, based on what you know now?
I am committed to the first two Pathfinder series, partly due to conversion of my Dungeon and Dragon subscriptions, but partly due to them being 3.5e material. I am so far very happy with the Pathfinders I have received, and I look forward to each month's new issue.
Provided that Paizo maintains this great product, and I have no reason to doubt they will, I will continue to buy them, so long as they are 3.5, even going into the third Pathfinder.
Converting to 4e will halt my subscription, as I have no intention of converting my games. I have way too much material for 3.5 and have no interest in what I perceive as a "dumbered"-down system. I'm old and curmudgeonly, and should I ever dcide to convert, there are back issues and pdfs and all that available on the market.
Converting to 3.75 (or 3.paizo) is a touchier issue. So long as it is not a drastic rules change (like 2nd to 3rd), I would probably go along with it. If 3.75 is easily backwards-compatible wth 3.5, I would like likely continue my subscription through the third Pathfinder series. I would even say it is very likely I would continue, just to support Paizo and "my" DnD. I would certainly give 3.75 the benefit of the doubt, whereas 4th edition is right out.
I understand at some point Paizo will likely have to convert to 4.0, but I do not look forward to the day. I wish Paizo success, where I am ambivalent, and occasionally bitter towards WotC and Hasbro. I will look at Paizo products, and they might be one key factor that would entice me into trying 4e.
So to summarize:
I WILL buy Pathfinder #3 as 3.5e.
I WILL probably buy Pathfinder #3 as 3.75e.
I WIL NOT buy Pathfinder #3 as 4e.