I feel that drow are CE because that's what whoever made them.OMG! This is an argument? What school do you go to? I'm going to e-mail this to your English prof!
I'm afraid you've misquoted me. There's a large amount of information in parenthesis after this, commenting on my knowledge (or lack thereof) regarding who actually created the archetype of drow which we now find ourselves discussing. After this section, I continue with the sentence, completing my thought.
So no, that's not an argument. That's a misquote.
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Whoever made them wrote down "Chaotic Evil," and it's been that way ever since for no other reason than D&D players tend to be of the same mindset as those who got upset when some Jedi has the wrong colored lightsabre in one of the prequel movies. Essentially, there's no good reason for it whatsoever.
You're right, sir. I did stop reading after Gygax's name and mention of the word "drow" being older than D&D.
All apologies!
Moreover, I'm the one who started the Thread implying it heresy to call the drow LE instead of CE despite the fact that I've been thinking it for years.
Hmm, so traditional D&D fluff doesn't have to be sacrosanct. The only reason drow are still Chaotic is because some will scream at the destruction of the Great Wheel-- I mean, drow alignment.
Yes, this is the overwhelming argument against changing drow from CE to LE. But truth be told, it's radically different than the Great Wheel destruction. (Something that, had WotC not spent the previous 5 months making HUGE and HORRIBLE changes to the game, may have gone over a little better. It's even slightly different than the succubus/erinyes makeover. But I still, justifiaby, despise WotC.
-W. E. Ray
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Thanks. Now I have to go dig out D3 and read it before I jabberjaw any more on this.
I read maybe 1 Driz'zt book, so I don't know what I think his alignment is. I also read 1 Gord book halfway through, so I'm not the world's expert on Eclavdra.
Hell, I'm going back to the 4.0 thread. ;) (just kidding).
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So let me ask you, had you never known the drow were alignment C or L or N, what, based on reading novels, supplements, and modules, would you classify the drow -- overall -- as?
Chaotic Evil.
There's no question about the Evil. Real no-brainer.
Lawful Evil is like a mob family (at least, a mob family on TV and the movies). There's rigid order and structure, and you simply don't break it. No one kills a family member unless an order is given. Someone who does that is a rogue, and has thrown his life away if he's caught.
The drow? They'll kill one another without a thought. That sort of action is the essence of Chaos. People scheme and plot for power. These are the real heart and soul of drow society; the rigid order is a facade.
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I don't recall what the published G/D Series says about Eclevdra. I don't recall her alignment in the Epic Level Handbook. Does it matter?
Drizzt in the FRCS is CG; though I disagree.
By the by, I was wondering if anyone would smash an obvious hole in one of my points but no one ever did. So I'll give it to you.
My whole, there are no drow barbarians thing is bogus. It's a simple fallacy: all Bbns are C -- not all C societies must have Bbns.
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The drow? They'll kill one another without a thought.
No! They have no remorse, certainly. So they kill without thinking of it as bad -- without a thought. This makes them evil. BUT they definetly think long before they kill. "Drow of the Underdark" states this emphatically throughout the text. They will not rashly or foolishly murder because if they don not succeed, or if they leave themselves vulnerable, they're toast. They plan; they enter conspiracies; they develop contingencies, etc. They ARE LAWFUL.
People scheme and plot for power. These are the real heart and soul of drow society; the rigid order is a facade.
Your two statements seem contradictory to being Chaotic.
I think the whole "all barbarians are chaotic" thing is bogus, but that's another subject entirely.
Yeah. You know -I may just tell alignment to leave my games completly. If only so many spells and things didn't hinge around it. :(
Much of the alignment problem stems back from the 1stE and AD&D drow perception as a vile monster race. They were invented to be mean and evil, thus they got the respective alignment out "culture". As this did not work in 3E and after a deeper look into their civilization's workings, it was sensibly changed to NE. And if you look carefully, you'll find that much of what we know of drow society is just about the clergy (of Lolth) as well as the ongoings amongst the nobles in the drow houses - which in Forgotten Realms terms represent about 5 to 10 % of society.
Essentially, the drow have a militaristic and very hierarchical society, lead by a church which appears to be chaotic from the inside, but which does indeed follow a rigid dogma too. It's not like the drow - including the priestesses - indulge in slaughter each and every day. Lolth herself is said to be "chaos" personified too, but she does indeed care for her race and once it gets into difficulty, she is quick to order ceasefires or the like. Mind you, she even dictates that mindless slaughter amongst the drow to enhance one's own position is not approved by her ... and those who commit it will eventually stand before her throne and have to justify their deeds. Not that happy a thought, aye?
That said, I never been strict with the alignment rules of 3E, one-step and all, as it does not always represent the specific deity in question. Hence, I went back ... ahem ... never went away from the alignment rules on clergy and worshippers as given in the books of the Faiths & Avatars series, with regards to the Forgotten Realms. And they say: LE? No problem, even for the clergy.
I think the whole "all barbarians are chaotic" thing is bogus, but that's another subject entirely.
It is bogus. The PHB doesn't require barbarians to be Chaotic. They simply must be non-Lawful. It just seems that no one ever chooses to play a non-Chaotic barbarian.
Now, whether you think barbarians should be allowed to be Lawful or not is another matter, and what I think you were driving at. But it is a fact that they are not all required to be Chaotic.
So what would a Drow Succubi be?
Really hot!
Can't disagree with you there Screenmonkey.
We are talking a race of elves with a serious leather fetish and affinity for whips and slaving being crossbred with a demon (not devil!) of lust.
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groping toward some kind of definition;
lawful - likes to use pre-existing systems, structured organisations, hierarchies and authority figures. If these things don't exist they try to create/embody systems, hierarchies, etc.
neutral - takes a pragmatic approach and uses whichever tools seem most likely to get the job done.
chaotic - instinctively favours working outside of established systems, structured organisations and rejects the assumed status of authority figures and hierarchies. Also unwilling to accept such authority or a place in a structured organisation/hierarchy.
on the basis of which most fantasy societies are lawful, and most of the people within those societies are neutral.
The drow? They'll kill one another without a thought.No! They have no remorse, certainly. So they kill without thinking of it as bad -- without a thought. This makes them evil. BUT they definetly think long before they kill. "Drow of the Underdark" states this emphatically throughout the text. They will not rashly or foolishly murder because if they don not succeed, or if they leave themselves vulnerable, they're toast. They plan; they enter conspiracies; they develop contingencies, etc. They ARE LAWFUL.
Your two statements seem contradictory to being Chaotic.
People scheme and plot for power. These are the real heart and soul of drow society; the rigid order is a facade.
So being a good planner means you are a lawful person? So a terrorist is a lawful person? A criminal is a lawful person because they planned their crime to perfection? MMMM not so sure I buy that. I have an alarm on my house so a criminal must devise a way around it so they plan - would they just open my door up and take my stuff if they could? You bet but there are counter measures that prevent it so the criminals plan and plot.
Drow don't kill each other unless they have an advantage and wont get caught but they do it without real regard either. Since folks are quoting books the War of the Spider Queen books - a party of high level Drow go on a plane hopping mission. At all points they scheme to kill one another for some personal gain - even when the mission is in the service of helping their patron goddess and benefitting the society as a whole. Definitely doesnt sound lawful to me .... ill take jim down because I dont like him even though it puts at risk not only myself but possibly all my fellow citizens.
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I think the whole "all barbarians are chaotic" thing is bogus, but that's another subject entirely.It is bogus. The PHB doesn't require barbarians to be Chaotic. They simply must be non-Lawful. It just seems that no one ever chooses to play a non-Chaotic barbarian.
Now, whether you think barbarians should be allowed to be Lawful or not is another matter, and what I think you were driving at. But it is a fact that they are not all required to be Chaotic.
Right on.
A bit more on Law vs Chaos ...lifted from wikipedia
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
Dwarven societies are usually lawful, while Elven societies are most often chaotic.
So using this info .... Drow arent trustworthy or honorable but they do grudgingly respect authority and at times are reliable (when it suits their ends). But they are also adaptable and resentful of authority. Drow are CHAOTIC in nature.
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Much of what we know of drow society is just about the clergy (of Lolth) as well as the ongoings amongst the nobles in the drow houses - which in Forgotten Realms terms represent about 5 to 10 % of society.
This is a really good point. I have no idea if the 5-10% is accurate but even if it's not, it doesn't change the validity of the argument.
So here's my question: Looking at all the posts describing the drow society, there seems to be a "trickle down" effect indicative of a LE society. The church DEMANDS its dogma and everyone must follow it or be "tested" by Lolth (that might hurt!) Does a LE alignment "trickle down" to the majority because of fear -- like in a LE dictatorship run by a tyrant?!
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I've not gotten even a feeling of Chaotic tendencies for the drow as a whole. Maybe I'm too biased.
Here's what I see as the CE supporters' argument:
A) Drow are by nature Chaotic (and VERY Evil)
B) Their society is in a vulnerable position because the other Underdark races, with a far greater total population, want vengeance against the drow.
C) Lolth (and thus her church) is either 1> insistent that the drow be "lawful" because the "order" and its comprehensive effects will create a stronger society with unlimited potential for power AND / OR 2> (this will really be heresy) Lolth IS LE and imposes her belief on her chosen people.
I have a hard time buying this.
If a small number of typical drow were moved to a neutral place (the Outerplanes, maybe, or a new world in the Ethereal) would they begin a CE or LE "society"? I don't think we can answer this question at all -- it's an individual DM and campaign thing.
We can look at the 4 drow in the Hunter's Blades Trilogy. In that 1 example they are most certainly LE.
-W. E. Ray
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Essentially, the drow have a militaristic and very hierarchical society, lead by a church which appears to be chaotic from the inside, but which does indeed follow a rigid dogma too. It's not like the drow - including the priestesses - (to) indulge in slaughter each and every day. Lolth herself is said to be "chaos" personified too, but she does indeed care for her race and once it gets into difficulty, she is quick to order ceasefires or the like. Mind you, she even dictates that mindless slaughter amongst the drow to enhance one's own position is not approved by her ... and those who commit it will eventually stand before her throne and have to justify their deeds. Not that happy a thought, aye?
And they say: LE? No problem, even for the clergy.
This is how I see it
PS. It's going to take a few minutes for me to catch up on these posts. I'll be behind for a little while.
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You know -I may just tell alignment to leave my games completly.
I've always had Players write out a BRIEF description of what makes them a particular alignment. I don't mind AT ALL when 2 or more LNs, for example, are radically different.
As a DM my campaigns are often deeply envolved story lines in which the Players spend much time trying to figure out the nature of the BBEG: his plans, his resources, his weaknesses, etc.
One way they can use to figure things out is by the BBEG's henchmen. If the PCs fight gnolls, orcs, ogres, minotaurs, a Hezrou, etc., but never a Hobgoblin, Mind Flayer, or Xill -- they can be on to something.
To back up what I've said earlier (/make more sense)...
Lawful evil is described by PHB as doing whatever you think you can get away with. This fits Drow society to a "T." Even though the drow "laws" do a poor job of preventing crime, it still is true that laws are in place AND (most importantly) that these laws (to some extent) prevent crimes. If these sorts of practices did not exist in Drow society, it is certain that the Drow would simply attack opposing houses at will, creating a truly chaotic environment.
As it is though, the society IS partially controlled, resulting in a community where Drow do commit crimes, but are limited from randomly (and thus chaotically) attacking or raiding.
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Feel free to read through the whole Thread if you're just joining; it'll help eliminate redundancies as well as other undesirables.
groping toward some kind of definition;
Clearly, the Law/Chaos axis is semantically ridiculous BUT, for the sake of the D&D game, let's try to keep it. Most importantly, let's use the descriptions in the PHB as canon and use supplements as, well, as supplements.
Feel free to look at my earlier post quoting text from the PHB on LE and CE as well as other posts citing or paraphrasing supplements such as FCII
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So being a good planner means you are a lawful person?
In D&D (just a game) terms, yes that's one of the MAIN criteria. At least, until a comprehensive argument trumps it.
So a terrorist is a lawful person? A criminal is a lawful person because they planned their crime to perfection? MMMM not so sure I buy that. I have an alarm on my house so a criminal must devise a way around it so they plan - would they just open my door up and take my stuff if they could? You bet but there are counter measures that prevent it so the criminals plan and plot.
Despite the fact that I see this as COMPLETELY LE -- I really don't think bringing real life values into D&D arguments is a good idea. I mean, we're all C and L and N. Humanity is FAR too dynamic and complicated to shoehorn into D&D Law and Chaos. Semantically, we can not pin down Truth. Additionally, this could turn into something personal and unpleasant.
Drow don't kill each other unless they have an advantage and wont get caught but they do it without real regard either. Since folks are quoting books the War of the Spider Queen books - a party of high level Drow go on a plane hopping mission. At all points they scheme to kill one another for some personal gain - even when the mission is in the service of helping their patron goddess and benefitting the society as a whole. Definitely doesnt sound lawful to me .... ill take jim down because I dont like him even though it puts at risk not only myself but possibly all my fellow citizens.
Doesn't the "without real reagard" mean they're evil -- not Chaotic?
Your text example could be the best argument against my LE stance, yet. I have to admit ignorance, here, as I've not read the texts. My comments just on your summation:
You use the word "scheme." Thus the drow are planning their murders out, not chaotically attacking.
You say a drow will "take Jim down" even at the expense of putting himself and the mission at risk. Does the individual drow consider the risk/reward balance? Does he attempt to manipulate, methodically, the situation to reduce his risk and enhanse his reward? This sounds LE.
Finally, it's done at the possible expense of the mission, I assume. Well, 1: are the drow more concerned with their own advancement or the success of the mission? A good (CG or LG) group would likely put the mission first, but this is a good/evil aspect, not Law/Chaos. And 2: Even if the mission is more important than personal gain, is it really ever at risk? Or, at least, what is the degree of risk and does the individual drow calculate it and then manipulate the situation and/or be patient?
(no time to proofread, sorry)
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Personally, I don't read D&D novels.
The only Drow material I've read is from AD&D 1st Edition, so Fiend Folio, Vault of the Drow, etc.
I'm a Core Books, Dungeon and Homebrew kinda guy
Maybe that means I shouldn't be in this discussion
BS! You know the drow!
I just play the game.
There you go!
Joe Pesci from Goodfellas is CE
Hmm -- I don't know how "real life" it is. And I think it's ultimately an example of individuals in a society that are different from the norm. A CE advocate could certainly make this point.
Now GO GET YOUR SHINE BOX!
I began to think of Drow as LE over the past couple of years after re-reading GDQ and Dragon #298 in preparation for my camapign. I got the overall impression that they are like the mafia, at least the aristocracy is, as someone had mentioned above. I think their penchant for slavery and domination favors LE, too.
Just for fun, it would seem fitting that they would be diametrically opposed to surface elves who are traditionally CG.
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I strongly disagree that a being of Chaotic alignment has a chaotic mental state while one of Lawful alignment is mentally ordered. I believe a person who is CN can be organized and a methodical planner while a person who is LN can be a scatterbrain.
I do not believe that Alignments are definitions of one's mental state, but rather one's view and preferences towards the make-up and relative structure of society as well as the nature of their interactions with other beings.
This is certainly a valid interpretation of D&D Lawful and D&D Chaotic. Sure, others (including me) may have other interpretations but I don't see anything in here that contradicts the (necessarily poorly defined) PHB descriptions.
And using this interpretation (for those CE supporters still out there) of D&D Law/Chaos, drow are LE.
And using the generic PHB definition in its most simplistic terms, drow are LE.
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'So being a good planner means you are a lawful person? So a terrorist is a lawful person? A criminal is a lawful person because they planned their crime to perfection?'
REZDAVE: "Yeah ... what he said !!! A couple more times, even !!!"
Stand by...
I completely disagree that real-world examples shouldn't be part of the arguement. The characters in my games are treated as real, complex, dynamic beings rather than caricatures, stereotypes or undimensional.
< I'm having some technical dificulties copying quotes deep into a post so I'll have to settle for this. >
The reason I think real life examples can be dangerous is that we will use issues for examples. The terrorist issue, specifically, has already been used. And because I FEEL VERY STRONGLY that the planning and discipline (not to mention self sacrifice) of terrorist leaders is VERY LAWFUL in nature -- and others FEEL VERY STRONGLY otherwise, this has the likely potential turning from a nice discussion of a game aspect into an explosion of anger and politically charged (not to mention religious) outbursts.
Certainly those of us who prefer deep, story immersion games strive for dynamic, realistic, even human traits in all of the characters -- PC and NPC; humanoid and MOST non-humanoid.
And this carries over to alignments. I mean, would I have ever started this Thread if I hadn't thought deeply about alignment and realism -- let alone gone this deeply into it?
-W. E. Ray
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Can any large society be Chaotic? I imagine a "Chaotic" society as many separate groups or bands that occasionally congeal into larger tribes but then disband again as soon as possible. Kinda like surface elves. The rigidity of Drow screams Lawful to me. Look at devils for a great example of LE. Sure, they scheme against each other, but most of their schemes take place within the system; they make each other look bad, they disrupt each others' plans, they betray. But all of that is system-dependent, and so, Lawful. Chaotic would be turning and attacking an allied rival in the middle of a battle, just because he turned his back on you, i.e., demons.
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The other part of my "please no real life definitions" is indeed that D&D characters are less dynamic.
Now, while I -- and Dave and many others -- try our best for humanity-like realism, we can go only so far. This is a game, and a fantasy game at that. Players would have to spend far more time than is reasonable, even possible, to detail PCs, and especially all those NPCs, to be as dynamic and complicated as even a 10 year old.
Somewhat like "holo-deck" characters, PCs -- and especially NPCs -- are only in existence for a few hours a week. And then most of their time is segued.
But this is not NEARLY as important as the other reason.
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Well, looks like the Thread is slowing down so I skimed through and tallied the opinions.
LE DROW
Ray (Molech)
Dave (Rezdave)
Mosaic
Waltero
Mr. Jason (Halfling DM)
Saern
Zanan
Heath (a changed mind, right??)
Lathiira (another changed mind, ?)
Xuttah
Lord Vile (I assume)
BenS
CE DROW
Razzle
Iconoclastic Scream
Rambling Scribe
Lilith (right?)
baron arem heshvaun (haven't heard from him since the beginning...)
Ghettowedge (despite having a trumped argument)
NE or Undicided or No real opinion given
Geraint Elberion
8th Pagan (Demon Not Devil) <is this a hint?>
R-Type
pres man
Tequila Sunrise (talk about a relaxing post!)
Taliesan Hoyle
-and those asking about the drow succubus!
Put me in the Drow are LE category please.
Their society has far too many rules of conduct (even if they spend thier whole days trying to break them without getting caught) to be chaotic....at least that's my take on it.
Can any large society be Chaotic? I imagine a "Chaotic" society as many separate groups or bands that occasionally congeal into larger tribes but then disband again as soon as possible. Kinda like surface elves.
This is completely tangental, but I really disagree with the "elves are chaotic" theory in general. They're typically portrayed as composed, patient, and thoughtful, if a bit whimsical (which hardly counts). I see (surface) elves as much more Neutral Good. I'll avoid going so far as to say Lawful Good, both because we have an excellent example of that with dwarves, and elves don't match that description at all, and because I don't want to make it seem like everything really good is LG (as it seems to be the stereotypical opinion that the real evil is Chaotic Evil; i.e., anytime something evil gets made, and it's supposed to be really, really bad, it seems to just get thrown to Chaotic Evil, as if Neutral and Lawful Evil were somehow better).
Anyway, back to drow. I've read in Salvatore that the only "real" rule of the drow is "don't get caught." Isn't that the rule of most Lawful Evil societies? Couldn't you see that as being the real, ultimate rule of the Hells? The devils seem to be willing to do anything, so long as they don't leave any concrete proof linking them to the deed(s). Now, sometimes someone may do something bold and Asmodeus or another high ranker may look favorably upon the bold action, but that bears the stamp of authority (and it may well turn out they knew about the plot virtually all along and even covertly helpd it here and there).
Compare that with the tanar'ri. It's very likely that Grazz't's guards have to stop hordes of (very stupid) dretch from swarming the palace at times. There are hardly even any ranks or positions to be held, except the self-titled nobility and "rulers." Drow definitely have legitimate positions of authority within their culture. (Of course, the tanar'ri are outsiders and thus a much purer brand of Chaos and Evil than is almost ever going to be found in mortals, but I still think the point remains). There's no security. If you follow the "rules" (read: whims of the mighty), there's no guarantee that they or something else won't kill you just for the fun of it, nor is there any guarantee that any action will be taken in response to that. There are no trials; even if you think that the matrons' conclaves are mere lip service, it's definitely more than you're going to find in the Abyss.
The drow are far, far, far more similar to the devils than the demons.
My turn to add fuel to the fire.
You are being too simple. To make sense of this you have to look at this through the layers.
Overview
Drow society is ruled over by Lolth. Lolth uses the female priestess as enforcers. The society itself is run by houses. The houses rule over society in a common prize way. The houses in fight and try to gain dominance over each other (and thus the prize of everyone else). But if an individual house is caught breaking the ¡§laws¡¨ they use this as an excuse to rid themselves of a rival. Drow, when taken individually, believe they should do whatever is necessary to get themselves the most power.
So this means that Lolth is CE. She rules by force, not expecting people to honour her or follow her instead she makes them do that.
Drow society is CE but works within a LE framework. I say this because the drow houses believe the strong should rule it is just their sucky luck that they can't hope to over power their current ruler (Lolth) and thus are forced to work within the rules she presents (though they continually test them which is why they are not LE).
Drow as individuals are mainly NE (50%). Sometimes CE (40%), almost never LE (9%) and never CN. (Never in the term less then 1% of all Drow. As in: Drow are never of good alignment.)
The reasoning are as follows:
CE drow usually sinks or swims. As in they either rise through the ranks or die trying.
LE drow would try to actually follow the laws meaning they would be useful as tools. They would hit a chaotic glass ceiling if you will. Their flaws (ie always keeping your word in drow society) would allow them to be manipulated or eliminated. But these LE drow would flourish on the edges of drow society (as Mercs, assassins, information dealers and merchants).
NE drow are the sheep the will act only if they are safe to do so. They provide all the lower classes and ¡§filler¡¨ drow. The make society run and are (marginally) trustworthy. They fear the consequences more then the laws.
CN, LN, and Good aligned drow are usually turned or elimanted as they are easy to spot and are the targets for (possibly misplaced) aggression. This is because they are safe targets. CN breaks the laws just to break them (ie dead). LN follows the laws to their death (if personal code is used it will clash with the laws at somepoint). Good is just an easy safe target to maim and kill. Everyone hates them :). True neutral could survive but not for long as their balance tendencies would get their arse fried.
And now the one group I left out. The priestesses. I would have to say that they also run the gambit of evils but because of Lolth they actually can only have the NE & CE alignments. Lolth finds honour and law a tool, just like a knife, so being lawful (evil) where you actually consider it to be important is a weakness. Also should would not accept defiance so CN finds themselves on the altar quick enough instead of behind it.
Just thought I'd toss this out there...
What if the Drow females are CE (psycho evil in the extreme)emulating their goddess/demoness and the males are LE (kowtowing to the matriarchal driven society). Lloth, and her female favored, have little use for the males beyond mating or other amusement. The men have no choice but to grin and bear it (more whip references) or be killed. Nothing scientific. Just food for thought.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Throwing my hat into the ring.
One big point that keeps being driven home is that planning actions/considering consequences for actions makes you lawful. I don't buy this. Chaotic doesn't mean stupid.
Even the most Chaotic creature would think twice before doing something that could result in its death.
Look at Demon Lords as an example. They've all got far flung plans to defeat their rivals. Some of these plans take centuries and require great patience. They also rule over minor demons with an iron fist. The demons below them are constantly looking for ways to overthrow the Demon Lord and become more powerful (but none are stupid enough to do this openly). So, they follow the rules set out by their Chaotic Lord until an opportunity presents itself to move up the food chain. If they get caught, they are killed outright. Game over. There is no trust in a Demon's mind.
Does this mean Demons are lawful since they often plan before acting? I don't think so.
Does this make Demons lawful since they have a hierarchical society ruled by fear by the most powerful members? Once again, I don't think so.
On the flip side, Devils are lawful, and a point was made that they act under "it's ok unless you get caught." This is just not true. Devils follow the laws of the land to the letter. They will look for loopholes, often obeying the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it, and act on those when they can. They will not break the law arbitrarily for personal gain. That is something a Demon would do, not a Devil.
In addition, a Devil Lord has a well organized governmental hierarchy filled with trusted lieutenants who are loyal to the Lord. Each lieutenant has a role, and fulfills his obligation. This doesn't happen in Demon society, where everyone is looking for an edge and trust is a foreign concept. (Not that Devils trust is absolute. If a way to change the laws or different interpretation of the laws is found, then revolution might begin...)
So, if you look at the biggest archetypes of Chaotic Evil (Demons) and Lawful Evil (Devils), which one is more similar to the Drow?
Do Drow use loopholes (Devil), or blatantly break the laws when they feel they can get away with it (Demon)? Answer: Demon
Is Drow society ruled over by the most powerful entity who keeps them in line by fear and power (Demon), or is the powerful entity that rules society have a series of trusted lieutenants in place to ensure the Lord's will is done (Devil)? Answer: Demon
Looking at the Drow society through these lenses makes me assert the position that Drow are, indeed, Chaotic Evil in nature.
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Man, do you guys realize how far behind in work I'm getting because of this Thread?!
Heath, how do you do it -- stay on the boards, I mean?
I get 1 hour around this time of day (but REALLY shouldn't be using it for this) and an hour or two in the evenings.
I've gotta prep my Saturday session for my SCAP w/ AoW (modified homebrew) campaign tonight. Now, how am I gonna do that if I'm this far behind in work already AND have to read these fabulous posts you are putting out?
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Hey, thanks for joining, Archlich!
You are being too simple. To make sense of this you have to look at this through the layers.
Well, in one sense all this will be simple because it's a fantasy game aspect -- this has already been discussed.
However, without having yet read your argument, "layers" already makes me think this will be a LE argument that's being called CE.
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Man, do you guys realize how far behind in work I'm getting because of this Thread?!
Heath, how do you do it -- stay on the boards, I mean?
I get 1 hour around this time of day (but REALLY shouldn't be using it for this) and an hour or two in the evenings.
I've gotta prep my Saturday session for my SCAP w/ AoW (modified homebrew) campaign tonight. Now, how am I gonna do that if I'm this far behind in work already AND have to read these fabulous posts you are putting out?
I just check in every once in a while when I have time to kill.
I got a newborn, and I was up at 3 a.m. so I checked the boards; and let my wife sleep 5 hours while I took care of the fussy little thing.I don't like much of anything on t.v., and I don't have a lot of cash to go do stuff. I love reading, but can never slap together the time to read a book. The last book I read was the Ananzi Boys on a plane to North Carolina and back for work.
Work's not that slamming most of the time, but when it is....
I can pop in every once in a while, say some dumb crap, and get back to it. My posts are usually one or two lines; I can't compose a diatribe at work, but I can usually read something then say something cornball about it.
It keeps my head together at work.
Well, in one sense all this will be simple because it's a fantasy game aspect -- this has already been discussed.
However, without having yet read your argument, "layers" already makes me think this will be a LE argument that's being called CE.
Ouch! Dismissed and classified and not read beyond the first sentence or two.
Work's not that slamming most of the time, but when it is....
I can pop in every once in a while, say some dumb crap, and get back to it. My posts are usually one or two lines; I can't compose a diatribe at work, but I can usually read something then say something cornball about it.
It keeps my head together at work.
Puppy!!!
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Drow society is ruled over by Lolth. Lolth uses the female priestess as enforcers. The society itself is run by houses. The houses rule over society in a common prize way. The houses in fight and try to gain dominance over each other (and thus the prize of everyone else). But if an individual house is caught breaking the laws they use this as an excuse to rid themselves of a rival.
Sure enough, this is exactly how the PHB and FCII describe evil at its MOST Lawful.
* A strict hierarchy -- Lawful
* Using Laws (working within the "code of conduct" {PHB}) -- Lawful
And obviously evil.
Drow, when taken individually, believe they should do whatever is necessary to get themselves the most power.
But the methods they employ are strictly and almost universally lawful
So this means that Lolth is CE. She rules by force, not expecting people to honour her or follow her instead she makes them do that.
Asmodeus rules by force -- LE
Demogorgon rules by force -- CEBane rules by force -- LE
Orcus rules by force -- CE
Thus, ruling by force is not confined to be either Lawful nor Chaotic.
Drow society is CE but works within a LE framework.
Drow houses believe the strong should rule
It is just their sucky luck that they can't hope to over power their current ruler (Lolth) and thus are forced to work within the rules she presents.
Though (Lolth) continually test(s) them which is why they are not LE.
Well, it's the best attempt yet, but...
Believing the strong shold rule -- "believing" mind you -- is more Lawful than Chaotic, though it's not the most conclusive evidence (in other words, it's possible {though difficult} to argue this is Chaotic.). If you make the "believing the strong should rule" argument, explain why it is Chaotic. Don't forget Bane and Asmodeus.Your second point: This is only thing I see as the CE argument, that drow are born CE but Lolth demands them to be LE. . . .
Wow.
Number three: I think tests, especially the kind that Lolth enforces, are indicative of "D&D Law," which is what's under discussion. Now, if this is your evidence revealing the Chaotic nature of drow and the method in which Lolth "forces" them to be Lawful, well, I understand the 'Lolth wants you LE', I don't know that any evidence exists that drow are born CE.
Drow as individuals are mainly NE (50%). Sometimes CE (40%), almost never LE (9%) and never CN. (Never in the term less then 1% of all Drow. As in: Drow are never of good alignment.)
OMG!!
Shame on you, ArchLich. You should know better than to try this -- even on a casual messageboards outlet.
innocently asks And, uh, where did you get these numbers? It's funny, a survey asking about the percentage of C,L,NE drow never made it to my gaming group. Were the results published?
CE drow usually sinks or swims. As in they either rise through the ranks or die trying.
LE drow would try to actually follow the laws meaning they would be useful as tools. They would hit a chaotic glass ceiling if you will. Their flaws (ie always keeping your word in drow society) would allow them to be manipulated or eliminated. But these LE drow would flourish on the edges of drow society (as Mercs, assassins, information dealers and merchants).
NE drow are the sheep (that) will act only if they are safe to do so. They provide all the lower classes and filler drow. The make society run and are (marginally) trustworthy. They fear the consequences more...
Alright, okay.
Devils try to make it through the ranks as well. UPWARD MOVEMENT IN AN EVIL MANNER CAN BE BOTH LE OR CE
It is the manner[/] in which a people strive to move up. The manner in which the drow use [i]is LE.
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Ugh, drow will most certainly break their word in a drow society. It is a part of their moral code -- an evil one, yes, but a code they follow, nonetheless. The code: "whatever works: betrayal, manipulating, spying, whatever -- if it works, it's morally permissable." Sure, it's an evil code, but it's definately Lawful.
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Just thought I'd toss this out there...
What if the Drow females are CE (psycho evil in the extreme)emulating their goddess/demoness and the males are LE (kowtowing to the matriarchal driven society). Lloth, and her female favored, have little use for the males beyond mating or other amusement. The men have no choice but to grin and bear it (more whip references) or be killed. Nothing scientific. Just food for thought.
I like it.
I mean, I remember Vierna and "Brieza"(?) in the Homeland Trilogy -- and Vierna again in the "Legacy," "Passage to Dawn" series.
They seemed more CE.
But Eclevdra, Matron Malice, Xandra Shobalar, Matron Baenre, Triel Baenre, Liriel Baenre(maybe), Shakti Hunzrin, and Adnon "Kareese"(?) among probably many others were more LE.
Maybe some are more NE.
SO, WE MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT PRIESTESSES OF LOLTH CAN BE CE OR LE as long as they enforce and maintain a strictly LE drow society.
Really, this is interesting. I've NEVER liked that a Cleric of a Deity could have an alignment other than his deity. You want Lathander to give you spells -- well, b#!%$, you're LG! (Now go get your shine box!)
I have to think about it.
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Meanwhile, drow males: Gromph Baenre, Jarlaxle, Dinin DoUrden, Drizzt's dad (oops), among others are almost any evil EXCEPT CE.
BTW, great post, ArchLich -- it was the most fun to read, yet.
And that is what matters most.