Are there any rule precedents for using a spear as a "Double Weapon" like a quarterstaff or longstaff? Such as, one end as a slashing damage weapon, and the other as a bludgeoning damage weapon? I haven't found anything, and it seems reasonable, but it also feels like having cake and eating it too. And what would the damage and crits look like? 2d4 slashing/1d6 bludgeoning x3 crit, like a guisarme/longstaff, or 1d10/1d6 x3 like a glaive/longstaff? And what about the reach? Perhaps it broken and that's why I cant find it.
What do you guys know?
First I would say exotic weapon pro. then on damage I would say 1d8P 1d6B and I'm temped to say two crit ranges x3 for the spear head and x2 for the staff. On reach: knee-jerk reaction no, but I guess you could say reach only with one end. It can't be used as a double weapon and reach weapon at the same time.
Fizz
Are there any rule precedents for using a spear as a "Double Weapon" like a quarterstaff or longstaff? Such as, one end as a slashing damage weapon, and the other as a bludgeoning damage weapon? I haven't found anything, and it seems reasonable, but it also feels like having cake and eating it too. And what would the damage and crits look like? 2d4 slashing/1d6 bludgeoning x3 crit, like a guisarme/longstaff, or 1d10/1d6 x3 like a glaive/longstaff? And what about the reach? Perhaps it broken and that's why I cant find it.
Spears usually both cut and stab (IRL). As for being used as a double weapon I would say sure no problem. But it is not a large cutting blade like some of the halberds. I would write it up as the following:
Two handed used as designed:
Longspear | 5 gp | 1d6 | 1d8 | x3 | — | 9 lb. | Piercing
This weapon has reach & applies 1 1/2 strength modifier to damage.
Used as a double weapon:
Longspear | 5 gp | 1d6/1d4 | 1d8/1d6 | x3 | — | 9 lb. | Slashing on one end/ Bludgeoning on one end
This weapon is a double weapon and does not have reach.
If you wanted to make it in game more consistent allow the spear to be used for piercing damage or for slashing damage (at a -1 to hit). This would reflect its true usage and why it is primarily used for stabb'n.
I'd be tempted to rule that a spear (not a short spear or a long spear, just a spear) can be freely used as a double weapon, but doing so would make it strictly superior to a staff. I think in the end I'd require an exotic weapon proficiency like Fizzban said. 1d8/x3 piercing damage for the spear end and 1d6/x2 bludgeoning damage for the 'staff' end. No reach though, as a long spear would just be too unwieldy to use as a double weapon.
I'd be tempted to rule that a spear (not a short spear or a long spear, just a spear) can be freely used as a double weapon, but doing so would make it strictly superior to a staff. I think in the end I'd require an exotic weapon proficiency like Fizzban said. 1d8/x3 piercing damage for the spear end and 1d6/x2 bludgeoning damage for the 'staff' end. No reach though, as a long spear would just be too unwieldy to use as a double weapon.
I looked over the difference between a spear and a long spear. I would revise my previous post to be more like this:
Two handed used as designed:
Spear | 2 gp | 1d6 | 1d8 | x3 | 20' | 6 lb. | Piercing
This weapon applies 1 1/2 strength modifier to damage for being a two handed weapon.
Used as a double weapon:
Longspear | 5 gp | 1d6/1d4 | 1d8/1d6 | x3 | — | 6 lb. | Slashing on one end/ Bludgeoning on one end
This weapon is a double weapon and does not have reach.
I know from experience that the difference between a staff and a spear is essentially that you strap a knife on one end. A spear is superior to a staff but it also has a cost associated with it unlike a quarterstaff. (BTW the difference between staff and spear is 16 moves or so. Everthing you can do with a staff you can do with a spear.) This is IRL and I do not want to start one of those "it's more realistic if..." debates. Just using it as a bases.
I'm thinking of something like one of these
http://www.slam.org/exhibits/armsandarmor/staff.html
with a 6-8 foot strong pole attached.
I'm thinking of something like one of these
http://www.slam.org/exhibits/armsandarmor/staff.html
with a 6-8 foot strong pole attached.
This was the closest to what I was thinking from those examples.
I could swear I've seen a feat for this somewhere, it let you use a shortspear or a spear as a double weapon and the blunt end did the same damage as a club? Probably out of a Dragon magazine? I think the one with all the polearms in it.
::edit:: I think the intent was to use it like a quarterstaff, so I wouldn't see a problem with the odd end doing quarterstaff damage.
Fairly sure there is a reference to this in the Dragon "All about pole-arms" article some 2 years back.
Two points:
1. The blunt end should decidedly only have a x2 crit. Much as a hate it, blunt weapons just about never have a x3 crit, and there's no reason a sub-optimal staff use of a haft would be better than a staff on its own.
2. The only double weapon that is not exotic in the SRD is the quarterstaff, with both ends identical. I don't see much of an issue with using a spear as a double weapon without any feats. However, if unless a feat is used (exotic of weapon style) I think the blunt end should be treated as a staff *for all purposes* (weapon focus, spec, etc.), semi-negating the "single weapon doing multiple things" benefit of the exotic double weapons being given to a simple one.
Personally, I'd drop the spear end damage to 1d6 as well, but I'm pretty hard-nosed about things.
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I've allowed the use of the butt end of a spear as one end of a quarterstaff in the past. I didn't (and wouldn't) allow a character to use it as a double weapon.
I've also thought about giving a -2 circumstance penalty to the use of the butt end, because you have to worry a bit about cutting yourself with the blade if you try to use it with quarterstaff technique. (I'd allow a feat to negate this, though I wouldn't spend a feat that way.)
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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I see it listed as a Feat from Dragon magazine: Spear Master.
You may choose to wield a Spear or Shortspear as a Double Weapon. The blunt end does Bludgeoning damage in the same amount as the Piercing end. Each end must be Enchanted separately.
My source says Dragon 330 p. 89.
I'd like to take this topic is a slightly different direction and ask what's to stop a person using a spear as a quarterstaff if you only attack with the blunt end (say you're facing a skeleton and have no other bludgeoning weapon)? Would you receive a -2 attack penalty because using a spear as a quaterstaff in this way is unbalanced?
Thoughts?
I'd like to take this topic is a slightly different direction and ask what's to stop a person using a spear as a quarterstaff if you only attack with the blunt end (say you're facing a skeleton and have no other bludgeoning weapon)? Would you receive a -2 attack penalty because using a spear as a quaterstaff in this way is unbalanced?
Thoughts?
improvised weapon -4. There's nothing from stopping you.
Fizz
If you wanted to create rules yourself, and interesting place to start might be watching the movie Troy.
Back when the movie came out I actually queeried a Spear & Shield fighter as a fighter variant for a class acts. It was a no go but I still think it was a good idea.
The spear is (IMO) underrated as a weapon pretty much every culture had the spear as its core weapon system at some point
Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Celts, even Knights spent time with and were commonly countered by spears (of some flavor).
But I wouldn't just have a feat, I would have a progression of feats or a class (or PrC) that advances spear fighting.
I'm gonna chime in as a guy who can use the spear like this. I learned it and teach it in martial arts. It certainly isn't unbalanced and using it as a double weapon takes a lot more practice than swinging a sword and a little more than using a staff because you need to be conscious of the facing of your blade when you are slashing. A long spear couldn't be used like this, as pointed out above, because flankers and allies in adjacent squares would block your swings and you couldn't cycle attacks... unless you are Jackie Chan.
Around my table all spears can be used like this, and I suspect the only reason it's not in the rules is that western war fantasy movies only show the weapon being used in formations. I don't believe that European spear-fighters did not know how to use both ends.... we've just never seen it.
I see it listed as a Feat from Dragon magazine: Spear Master.
You may choose to wield a Spear or Shortspear as a Double Weapon. The blunt end does Bludgeoning damage in the same amount as the Piercing end. Each end must be Enchanted separately.
My source says Dragon 330 p. 89.
Yes, I recall this. But like a poster above mentioned, I would make the blunt end do "Quarterstaff Damage" (1d6 /x2). It just feels like the right ammount. If anyone asks about it in my game this is how I would run it. And I also agree that spears are very underrated as weapons in D&D. Half the "savage races" in the monster manual should be using them!