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Reading over these 2 classes I found myself initially thinking "these are both OP", but changed my mind by the time I was finished. It's not that they are OP, but that they look very functional and fun to play. I think back to the playtests for Psychic, Magus, Gunslinger, and Inventor which were all underpowered and (my opinion only) underwhelming. The Oracle, Witch, Swashbuckler and Alchemist whose feats and abilities are so dull in comparison to these newer classes. The playtests here actually feel pretty good! Plenty to work on which I will leave to the actual playtesters instead of random opinion dumpers like myself but exciting stuff nonetheless.
I am hopeful that the revised PF2.5 will breathe some new life into some of the lackluster older classes. Some of them just need a few more feat choices, some of them need a bit more, but it looks like Paizo is headed in the right direction!
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I'd be happy if the remaster Wizard feats on average turn out to be half as good as the Animist's feats. Not holding my breath, though.
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I'd be happy if the remaster Wizard feats on average turn out to be half as good as the Animist's feats. Not holding my breath, though.
It is pretty hard to say right now. We know wizards got rid of Silent Spell and kept Conceal Spell, so it is safe to assume it works like the Animist version. Witch feats have some duds that survived like Murksight, but we also are getting the phenomenal Spirit Familiar and Coven Spell. It could be the case that the Animist reflects the new flow up we can expect for caster feats. It could also be that stronger class feats is considered part of the class budget. Or that they went with an overtuned package they intend to dial back, rather than an undertuned version they could dial up like the kineticist.
I'm quite puzzled by the direction of classes since the Thaumaturge. My impression is in complete opposition to the OP: I feel that Paizo finally embraced power creep.
It's so problematic that I'm even wondering if I won't forbid newer classes (starting with Dark Archive). Something that is entirely new to me in PF2 as I never thought about blocking common content (and even for less common content, I'm in general quite nice).
I'm not sure the Remaster will change much, but who knows...
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I'm quite puzzled by the direction of classes since the Thaumaturge.
It mostly just feels like they've finally figured out how to make classes. Thaum, Psychic, Kineticist, and now these two all manage to be flavorful, interesting, and reasonably well balanced.
It's a really nice change of pace from how bad some of their early misses were.
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It mostly just feels like they've finally figured out how to make classes.
I have a very different point of view. The new classes are stealing other classes things, they can cover nearly all the roles, and they have power issues when you take versatility into account.
Their success comes greatly from their power level, in my opinion.
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I mean those are good things. We like role flexibility and classes that feel effective and good at what they do.
Ultimately this is still a game for classes like fighters and bards, we just have more horizontal space in the new classes instead of classes that are just obviously worse.
I mean those are good things. We like role flexibility and classes that feel effective and good at what they do.
Ultimately this is still a game for classes like fighters and bards, we just have more horizontal space in the new classes instead of classes that are just obviously worse.
When a class is released, especially a complex one, it takes time for players to get used to it and get the most out of it. The Starlit Span Magus issue hasn't been raised right away (it's true the release of the Psychic increased it), similarly the Summoner has been criticized a lot before having players starting to praise it. It takes in general a few years.
When a new class, especially a complex one, is released and seems "good at what they do", you can be sure there are ways to make them "broken at what they do". The Thaumaturge already has the most problematic feat in the game.
I'm expecting the new classes to steal everyone's thunder very soon (well, maybe not Bard and Fighter, but balancing against Bard and Fighter is definite power creep).
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I don't feel like any of the newer classes break the game (so far). They are at the higher end of the tier list, but not past anything we've seen before. Fighter still rules surpreme in combat, rogue for skills, cleric for healing, bard for action economy and overall design.
The big question is: Will the remaster see the other classes catch up in design quality, versatility and power?
rogue for skills
Thaumaturge is miles ahead.
It's even worse than just skills, as on top of beating the Rogue hands down when you spec a Thaumaturge for skills, it also has very nice combat abilities (remember than only 2 Rogue Rackets are considered solid in combat) and it is more versatile when you start having more implements.
The Thaumaturge clearly outshines the Rogue, it's the new skill monkey.
rogue for skillsThaumaturge is miles ahead.
Miles ahead is a bit of an exaggeration. Thaumaturge can be better at certain skills (and it's abililty to Recall Knowledge with Diverse Lore needs to be toned down) but that requires him to have specific Implements, which limits his combat abilities. The rogue gets most off his skill stuff for free on top of its quite substantial combat abilities.
But anyway, other than Recall Knowledge, the Thaumaturge is still within the expected numbers, I think. It's a bit concerning that a single class can get close to the top contender in multiple different areas, but as long as it doesn't get into multiple of those at the same time, I think it's fine.
Miles ahead is a bit of an exaggeration. Thaumaturge can be better at certain skills (and it's abililty to Recall Knowledge with Diverse Lore needs to be toned down) but that requires him to have specific Implements, which limits his combat abilities. The rogue gets most off his skill stuff for free on top of its quite substantial combat abilities.
No. Either you pay for specific implements and the Thaumaturge is miles ahead or you don't pay and the Thaumaturge is very competitive against the Rogue.
With Tome Implement, the Thaumaturge gets to Legendary in all RK checks with Charisma used for the rolls + 5 skills to Legendary including 2 that can be changed every morning. The Rogue is in the dust.Or the Thaumaturge only grabs Diverse Lore and it gets to Legendary (with a -2 so closer to Master) in all RK checks with Charisma used for the rolls + 3 skills to Legendary. In my opinion, still better than the Rogue, but now it's closer.
But anyway, other than Recall Knowledge, the Thaumaturge is still within the expected numbers, I think.
Do you want me to check on what a Bomb Thaumaturge can do? Because I'm already seeing numbers that are superior to the competition.
Broken builds don't come up right at the release of a class, they come later.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I already said Diverse Lore is an issue. If that's ever (hopefully) toned down to let's say Bardic Lore level, the rogue is ahead by a lot again. And while numbers are a big part of a skill monkey, rogue also gets twice as many skill feats. That's far from nothing.
No need for the Bomb Thamaturge. I honestly didn't even know something like that existed. Don't really care, either. Weird interaction fringe builds are not what I consider making or breaking a class.
EDIT: And again, even if the Thaum might be and stay better than the pre-master rogue, that doesn't mean the "old" classes can't be elevated to similar levels/tier as the newer ones. The APG classes always felt like being stuck on a lesser power level compared to many Core classes. Since then the overall power level has been increased, no doubt. Maybe Paizo just realized they undershoot a bit during the early PF2 days and now slowly rectifying it by getting all classes to a new higher level.
I already said Diverse Lore is an issue. If that's ever (hopefully) toned down to let's say Bardic Lore level, the rogue is ahead by a lot again.
Unless they nerf Diverse Lore to oblivion, the Tome Thaumaturge will stay ahead of the Rogue. Also, it's easy to say that the new class is fine when it will be nerfed.
Weird interaction fringe builds are not what I consider making or breaking a class.
The Thaumaturge is the best skill monkey in the game and it looks like it's also the best bomber. It's no "fringe build", it's a class stealing other classes thunder because it's both too good and too versatile.
the "old" classes can't be elevated to similar levels/tier as the newer ones.
I think you put too much faith in the remaster. The remaster is only supposed to review a few, weak, classes, not the whole pack.
Anyway, we see a lot of people complaining about the new classes bringing a new level of OP. Paizo will, hopefully, nerf them a bit. But I still expect them to write a new definition of tier S.
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> The remaster is only supposed to review a few, weak, classes, not the whole pack.
Where was this restriction stated?
> Anyway, we see a lot of people complaining about the new classes bringing a new level of OP. Paizo will, hopefully, nerf them a bit.
So they should off the cuff nerf stuff based on whining rather than credibility? I wish we had Playtests for stuff like this…
> The remaster is only supposed to review a few, weak, classes, not the whole pack.
Where was this restriction stated?
In the blog post about the remaster. Only 4 classes are supposed to be reviewed. They also stated multiple times that the remaster is no new edition. But I guess you read it as much as I did.
So they should off the cuff nerf stuff based on whining rather than credibility? I wish we had Playtests for stuff like this…
I don't expect them to nerf them enough. People love their toys and never admit when a significant part of their fun comes from the power of said toys.
Also, could you avoid insulting people?|
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> In the blog post about the remaster. Only 4 classes are supposed to be reviewed.
Please provide a receipt for that claim.
> I don't expect them to nerf them enough. People love their toys and never admit when a significant part of their fun comes from the power of said toys.
Also, could you avoid insulting people?
I call out whining (you can’t even give a straight answer, just nerfs and more nerfs), and you ask to avoid “insults”… while throwing out insults.
> I don't expect them to nerf them enough.
That does not show your viewpoint as credible, rather it gives implications that you want nerfs for the sake of nerfs.
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@Rysky: The product pages for Player Core and Player Core 2 specifically call out 4 classes as getting a major overhaul: Witch, Oracle, Alchemist and Champion. That much is true.
@SuperBidi: They already buffed classes other than those 4 with the remaster. The Cleric's Divine Font and the Bard's and Wizard's improved weapon proficiencies are buffs, however minor the ultimate effect of some of them might end up being. And we haven't seen enough of the remaster to tell where the overall powerlevel of the player core classes will end up.
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@Rysky: The product pages for Player Core and Player Core 2 specifically call out 4 classes as getting a major overhaul: Witch, Oracle, Alchemist and Champion. That much is true.
@SuperBidi: They already buffed classes other than those 4 with the remaster. The Cleric's Divine Font and the Bard's and Wizard's improved weapon proficiencies are buffs, however minor the ultimate effect of some of them might end up being. And we haven't seen enough of the remaster to tell where the overall powerlevel of the player core classes will end up.
I wasn’t contesting that those 4 out of the 8 were getting big overhauls, just the notion the other 4 weren’t getting touched at all.
As the second part of your post backs up ^w^
Yup, I share OP's excitement. It'll be cool to see how it all shakes out. I love the feat selection of newer casters and would be happy for just a tiny portion of that to make its way to the older ones. Witch preview gives me some confidence
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@Rysky: The product pages for Player Core and Player Core 2 specifically call out 4 classes as getting a major overhaul: Witch, Oracle, Alchemist and Champion. That much is true.
@SuperBidi: They already buffed classes other than those 4 with the remaster. The Cleric's Divine Font and the Bard's and Wizard's improved weapon proficiencies are buffs, however minor the ultimate effect of some of them might end up being. And we haven't seen enough of the remaster to tell where the overall powerlevel of the player core classes will end up.
I wasn’t contesting that those 4 out of the 8 were getting big overhauls, just the notion the other 4 weren’t getting touched at all.
As the second part of your post backs up ^w^
Fair enough. :)
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@Rysky: The product pages for Player Core and Player Core 2 specifically call out 4 classes as getting a major overhaul: Witch, Oracle, Alchemist and Champion. That much is true.
@SuperBidi: They already buffed classes other than those 4 with the remaster. The Cleric's Divine Font and the Bard's and Wizard's improved weapon proficiencies are buffs, however minor the ultimate effect of some of them might end up being. And we haven't seen enough of the remaster to tell where the overall powerlevel of the player core classes will end up.
I wasn’t contesting that those 4 out of the 8 were getting big overhauls, just the notion the other 4 weren’t getting touched at all.
As the second part of your post backs up ^w^
Point of Pedantry, Other Me. It’s 4 out of 16 as of those four, only the Witch is in Core 1.
@SuperBidi: They already buffed classes other than those 4 with the remaster. The Cleric's Divine Font and the Bard's and Wizard's improved weapon proficiencies are buffs, however minor the ultimate effect of some of them might end up being. And we haven't seen enough of the remaster to tell where the overall powerlevel of the player core classes will end up.
I fully agree, as I said: I think you put too much faith in the remaster. The remaster is only supposed to review a few, weak, classes, not the whole pack.
Wait and see. We'll see if they went to greater lengths than what I expect.
I am excited by the design direction for new classes. I feel the design team is now more confident how they can bend and push the mechanics. The original core classes feel very stale and flavourless by comparison. Numbers wise its mostly balanced and its hard to break the raw numbers game. Bard, cleric and fighter still dominate for raw power.
Versatile classes are good, classes locked into only be good at 1 role become stale fast. 1 dimensional design is simple and easy but rarely rewarding for replayability.
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@Rysky: The product pages for Player Core and Player Core 2 specifically call out 4 classes as getting a major overhaul: Witch, Oracle, Alchemist and Champion. That much is true.
@SuperBidi: They already buffed classes other than those 4 with the remaster. The Cleric's Divine Font and the Bard's and Wizard's improved weapon proficiencies are buffs, however minor the ultimate effect of some of them might end up being. And we haven't seen enough of the remaster to tell where the overall powerlevel of the player core classes will end up.
Wizard isn’t on that list, and yet their subclass structure is changing completely. I expect the Remaster to look at everybody.