Pathfinder 2 says that Paizo will be doubling the space assigned for the iconic characters.
I respectfully ask that Paizo change this policy. My group does not use pregen characters and I feel that this is a complete waste of space at best and a bad way to pad out the page count at worst. Adding more info on the iconics lowers the value of the book for me.
If Paizo feels the need to devote a lot of page space to the iconics, I would prefer they just release the iconics in their own product (sort of like the old Rogue's Gallery). Please do no have the iconics clogging up scarce page real estate in Pathfinder 3+.
I think you have been out voted.
Actually DF, your post only brings the vote to a tie, one vote for either side . . .
But now, with my vote, he's outvoted . . :)
Creative Director
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We'll be sticking with a two-page presentation for our iconics starting with Pathfinder 3. Technically, that does mean that we're robbing the book of a page of "content," but since it was our intention to do a 2-page iconic section all along (we couldn't do it in the first few simply because we didn't have art for all three and didn't have the time to build a different layout from the GameMastery adventures), since there HAS been a huge outcry for names and stats and stories for our iconics. PLUS: As they get higher level, they simply need more space than the initial quarter-page format allows.
If there's an even bigger outcry that they're taking up too much room, of course, we'll switch things around.
But one page out of the back of the book isn't going to impact the quality of the adventures and back-matter we're putting into Pathfinder At All.
Respectfully, have you seen how many requests there have been over the years for stats on the iconics from Dungeon?
While I also hate to see any space lost in these books, Paizo is nothing if not attentive to their constiuents. I think you have been out voted.
I'm not opposed to iconic stats being offered. I'm just opposed to them being offered in Pathfinder. I think all those people looking for stats for the Dungeon iconics would buy a Rogue's Gallery type book if they are really interested in getting stats for characters.
James Jacob's forward in Pathfinder 2 says that
we’ll expand the section on our iconic adventurers (currently Valeros, Seoni, Kyra, and Merisiel) from their one-page formats into a two-page format. Not only will this allow us to keep presenting their statistics as they grow more powerful (and take up more and more space on the page), but it’ll give us some room to tell you a little bit about their personalities, histories, and goals. These characters are more than just collections of stats, after all—they’ve got their own secrets, their own flaws, and their own triumphs. For now, the choices we made in building their stats that might not make sense from a number-crunching standpoint can serve as clues to their personalities: Merisiel’s unusually low intelligence for a rogue, Seoni’s preference for flashy evocation spells, Kyra’s scimitar obsession, and the tankard Valeros carries on his belt next to his swords all have stories waiting to be told!
That sounds a lot to me like going to a convention and listening to strangers telling me about their characters.
If these characters and their writeups and stories were in a book about Golarion, or a Rogue's Gallery type book, or some other place where they fit in, I would probably love them. As pregen characters in an adventure path, I really don't care much for them.
I'm okay with being outvoted, I just felt like getting my viewpoint across to the people that matter.
I can see your viewpoint, doppleganger, but for me, every stat block, background, and personality I don't have to come up with myself is that much less of my valuable free time I don't have to spend prepping for an adventure.
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I can see your viewpoint, doppleganger, but for me, every stat block, background, and personality I don't have to come up with myself is that much less of my valuable free time I don't have to spend prepping for an adventure.
100% agreement. Even if you don't use pregen characters, everyone can use some extra fleshed out NPCs for when the PCs start a barfight with some rough looking dude, or stumble upon a rival adventuring party, or a disreputable contact that trickles info to the PCs.
Sure you might not want to run through the game with these guys but having ongoing stats for a party contact can be pretty valuable.I challenge you to use the stats presented to represent a valuable friend, mentor, or confidant for your group's party. Heck, they could even make good reoccuring villians if needed(alignment change and all).
If the 2 pages that are used to flesh-out and stat-out those 4 Characters isn't valuable after that test then complain about it.
FH
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I enjoy the iconics if for nothing more than they let me imagine the adventure in action, at least until my group finally decides what they want to be.
As for the Pathfinder Chronicles, that was the second thing I read all the way through (right after Thassilon), and I loved it. Of course, this could all be due to my being a fluff sponge.
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Creative Director
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In fact, in Pathfinder 3, the PCs come across one of those classic D&D elements: The bad guy's jail cells. We suggest in that encounter that if the PCs need some help, to put an NPC in there to join them for a bit. And if you need stats, the pre-gen characters at the back are there to help!
But as I've mentioned on another thread, the actual content of a 40-50 page adventure isn't going to notice losing one or two possible pages of content, at all. And in any event, the adventures themselves will always be Pathfinder's first mistress; they'll be allowed to be as big as they need to be. If anything has to be trimmed to fit, it'll be one of the back-matter supporting articles, and honestly, since we plan these things out well in advance, we generally DON'T have to trim content to make it fit, since we don't order stuff we can't print.
Which is, of course, why it's so very important for our authors to write to their word counts.
I don't think it would be a waste of space to flesh out the iconic characters. You can always use them as NPC's if your players prefer to make their own characters.
Besides, it's only one extra page.
Tell it to Queen Doppelpopolus, Doppelganger!
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I don't think it would be a waste of space to flesh out the iconic characters. You can always use them as NPC's if your players prefer to make their own characters.
Besides, it's only one extra page.
as a 'deadly' DM with a few notches on the obituaries threads, having stats to hand to someone who dies 'dead-dead' as a temporary character until the body can be brought back (esp in lower levels) is a big plus. Otherwise my girlfriend might start singing 'the floor song'
"I'm the cleric and I am
looking at the floor
floor floor floor floor
because the bad guy hit me and
I'm bleeding on the floor
floor floor floor floor
and my blood is pooling
getting in my eyes on the floor
floor floor floor floor"
That was her AOW song whenever she went into negatives - it went on for at least 20 minutes.
as a 'deadly' DM with a few notches on the obituaries threads, having stats to hand to someone who dies 'dead-dead' as a temporary character until the body can be brought back (esp in lower levels) is a big plus. [snip]I don't think it would be a waste of space to flesh out the iconic characters. You can always use them as NPC's if your players prefer to make their own characters.
Besides, it's only one extra page.
Exactly! Otherwise you have only two options:
1) halt the game while the player makes a new character...2) the player is out untill his character is brought back. This can lead to said player wandering around in your appartment, flipping through your CD collection, messing with your comics, or even turning on the tv (the ultimate mood killer... "I'll just watch some sports while you guy fight on...")
The Pathfinder Chronicles on the other hand...Gotta say I agree there. That was the only section I didn't read all through in Burnt Offerings.
At least give Book#2s a read, I'm certain you will find it more appealing. Book#1 was just laying the sement about the organization.
#2 Has a lot of good fluff about Varasia. If you like Fluff.
Personally, if the rest of the books will have entries like #2. I will greatly look forward to it. I think it's a great addition, and a way for us to learn more about the world Paizo is constructing aside from what we see in the adventure paths.
Otherwise my girlfriend might start singing 'the floor song'
"I'm the cleric and I am
looking at the floor
floor floor floor floor
because the bad guy hit me and
I'm bleeding on the floor
floor floor floor floor
and my blood is pooling
getting in my eyes on the floor
floor floor floor floor"That was her AOW song whenever she went into negatives - it went on for at least 20 minutes.
That is, quite possibly, the funniest thing I've read on these boards.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Considering how much I enjoyed the background/stats on Tyralandi, I'm all for 2 pages for characters to give a feel for characters, even ones that I may never use.
Where were the backround/stats for Tyralandi?
Is there a place that lists all of the names/races/classes of the Dungeon Iconics? I have seen them all in pictures, but other than Tyralandi i have no idea who any of them are.I'm not talking abourt full stats (although that would be super), but a little idea of who they are would be nice.
EDIT: And hey, I just realized that this is my 100th Post... Yay Me =)
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Creative Director
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Considering how much I enjoyed the background/stats on Tyralandi, I'm all for 2 pages for characters to give a feel for characters, even ones that I may never use.Where were the backround/stats for Tyralandi?
Is there a place that lists all of the names/races/classes of the Dungeon Iconics? I have seen them all in pictures, but other than Tyralandi i have no idea who any of them are.
I'm not talking abourt full stats (although that would be super), but a little idea of who they are would be nice.EDIT: And hey, I just realized that this is my 100th Post... Yay Me =)
I based my character in Erik Mona's Age of Worms game on the art for the iconic cleric, and keep a campaign journal for that game over on our campaign journal part of the messageboards. I've posted her stats elsewhere around here as well. That's pretty much what folk are talking about, I believe.
Wes Schneider built a character named Abelard for the same campaign off of our Dungeon paladin, but he died to the acid beetle swarm (those who've played Age of Worms know what that means), which is why Sean Glenn and I had the paladin getting beat up or killed in so many illustrations.
None of the other iconics from Dungeon have, as of yet, inspired Paizo employees to make characters.
Another vote for iconic character write ups. As long as they are only done once in the series for each iconic character.
Everyone loves and hates something different about every part of the magazine, errr book. Personally, while I'm not a huge fan of the pregens, as I brushed by them in the .pdf, I was talking to the guy behind me at work discussing the level range of the adventure, and the pregens were all 4th level. Consensus, I guess this is for fourth level pc's.... So having them there did come in handy.
I'd just like to chime in to say that I like the idea for giving a 1/2 page writeup (each) to the iconics. Others have already covered most of my reasons more eloquently, but I like ready-made NPCs/substitute PCs & I agree with Mr Jacobs that the statblocks will need the extra room in later issues.
One thing I didn't see raised however is the appeal of using a pre-gen PC with cool color artwork available for new players. Or even casual/infrequent players who don't necessarily want to build a character from scratch.
When I started playing in AD&D days, I used pre-gen characters. And I used them to see how characters could be used. Not everyone wants to go online to see examples of how to make a character, and IMHO, the PHB is really lacking in that it doesn't have examples or a sample party.
I like the extra space used for the iconics. Though, one thing seems to be missing from their character sheets... They don't appear to have a list of languages known.
That sounds a lot to me like going to a convention and listening to strangers telling me about their characters.
I'm with you. I read that part of the forward, and simply raised an eyebrow. Boring!
I like the extra space used for the iconics. Though, one thing seems to be missing from their character sheets... They don't appear to have a list of languages known.That's because they're all mute.
Ah. That should have been obvious, what with the lack of speech bubbles and all in the pictures. ;-)
Exactly my thoughts as well. They will get a use, either as PCs or NPCs.
I can see your viewpoint, doppleganger, but for me, every stat block, background, and personality I don't have to come up with myself is that much less of my valuable free time I don't have to spend prepping for an adventure.
Contributor
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Ah. That should have been obvious, what with the lack of speech bubbles and all in the pictures. ;-)
Yes! Exactly. ;D
Does Seoni take the full-round action to cast all her spells silently then?
Umm...
*tries to think of a clever answer*
*thinking*
Aha!
Look over there!
*ninja smoke*
personally, as someone who was (more or less) required to play pre-gen characters for about a year, and is just now getting his first chance to build his own character, having iconics to look at and refer to during the process has been really helpful.
Perhaps they just speak in mathematical code... or some sort of complex pheremonal sign language.
I rather enjoyed the Pathfinder Chronicles section in Pathfinder 2. If that's representative of what we'll see in the future, I'm all for it.
Yes indeed - the Pathfinder's Journal in #1 was really just to set up the background of the organization, which plays a pretty significant role in our world (hence the title of our Adventure Path book :). From #2 on, the Pathfinder's Journal will be a continuing narrative following Eando Kline that lets people explore our world outside of what's strictly useful in running the adventure itself (though you will undoubtedly notice certain ties and easter eggs between the two, so that hopefully each will be enhanced by reading the other). For instance, in #3, Eando visits Kaer Maga, and in #4 he heads down to Korvosa - both important places in Varisia that RotR doesn't get to visit much. My idea with these is that the more entries you read, the more you get out of them - each one is intended to be enjoyable on its own as a sort of short story, but if you read all six in a given adventure path, you'll realize that there's also a greater arc there as well, and if you read the next AP you'll realize that the first AP story arc was actually part of an even BIGGER story arc, all of them expanding our world in significant ways while still skirting the edges of the various adventures.
I know some people will open Pathfinder and go "Fiction? Fluff? WTF?! I could have a couple thousand more words of adventure here!" But to that I say: isn't there more to running a good game than just having a badass adventure? Having a gorgeous 50-page adventure is awesome for the DM (which is why we'll always provide one :), but 98% of the time the players aren't going to get to look through it and get the feel of our world. With the Pathfinder's Journal, we wanted to make sure there was something in each book that the DM could photocopy and hand out to his players to help get them into the swing of things, something that wouldn't have spoilers, exhaustive detail, or rules text, but which would get the players engaged and also make them go "Oh, I recognize that!" when the adventure and the journal cross paths. After all, these characters are from Golarion, and might potentially have access to a volume of the Pathfinder Chronicles (that's what they're there for). And how much more fun is it to read a story set in the world than to be told "read this gazetteer of Varisia... but your character shouldn't know any of the secrets!" I know that in my own games, I have the most fun when players pick up on things themselves rather than having to roll Knowledge (local) - when someone suggests cutting through the mushfens and someone else says "You fool! Don't you know that place is chock-full of boggarts?!", I get that warm fuzzy feeling that comes from knowing the setting is no longer just in my head, but something shared between everyone at the table.
So that's our goal with these: Fun AND useful, in a way that adventures and full-on DM-only back matter can't be. Give a couple of them a shot and see what you think!
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Pathfinder 2 says that Paizo will be doubling the space assigned for the iconic characters. Please do no have the iconics clogging up scarce page real estate in Pathfinder 3+.
As a fan of the iconics wanting to see more then just adventures and setting, but some personality and heroes for the setting, I say waste space!
http://paizo.com/image/content/RiseOfTheRunelords/ValerosHalfPageCharacter. jpg
Here's what the "waste" is going to look like. I can't wait to see the other Iconics. Character background is awesome. Keep up the awesome work please!
How can you go wrong with full-sized eye candy?? That's some mighty fine home cooking, right there! Too bad there can't also be full-body shots of the iconics in their Summer wear. I'd vote for evening wear and after-hours as well. Yum-yum, gimme-some!
On a more serious note, pregens with a background help me out tremendously as DM to figure out what kind of typical adventuring blokes populate Varisia, and they've been critical in their use as pre-gen characters. Even though my vote is late, I hope it's noted among supporters nonetheless.
One thing I enjoyed was comparing the background developed for Valeros in my game as opposed to Paizo. I had fun really emphasizing how unaware and dim-witted he was, and that it was the ladies that knew what was what. As they began making a name for themselves and the local lasses where flaunting their hooch in his face, he'd just get a blank stare and keep walking. It wasn't until the encounter with Shayless and the bodice dropped to the ground was he aware that women were swooning around him. I just imagined that thinking about romance made his brain hurt, but boy-oh-boy he won't go to bed without his two swords named "Misha" and "Sweet Kiss."
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Never to late to chime in DarkArt. Just don't go resurrecting posts from 2 moths ago. ;)
See that's a good write up right there, others aren't so capable or experienced enough to fill in the blankets and that's why more thorough character sheets are important. Newbies looking to play him that don't have much experience in the RP now have a guideline of what he's like and where he's been.
... Not gonna ask.I meant blanks. I don't know why I was thinking blankets.. oh yes I do.. someone mentioned hero being chained up and made to watch in another thread. :P
I plead . . . *innocent*
(giggles under breath)
to chime in - basically the "pre-gens" are fluff. I can live with them, they might even draw an interested glance but they should not get into the way of more facts about and hooks for Golarion based campaigns.
Since I haven't run pre-gens anywhere but on cons, they are basically as much wasted space as a comic or nice, if not quite relevant artwork.
As for the "blankets"... Sir Urza pray tell us more, the Holy Inquisition is, hmmmmm...... _very_ interested in your ramblings ?
I have two complaints about the Iconics.
1) My players were running D0 and D1 and the PCs didn't have the necessary skills to play the game. Can we get iconics with feats and skills that are needed in the game?
2) I'd rather have them in a PDF download. Just pop up a PDF that has characters ranging in levels and a little bio at the end. Although I'm not opposed to the sheets being in Pathfinder (my players actually liked the fact that the sheets were so consolidated and RPed more).
::Tosses two coppers on the table::
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I have two complaints about the Iconics.
1) My players were running D0 and D1 and the PCs didn't have the necessary skills to play the game. Can we get iconics with feats and skills that are needed in the game?
2) I'd rather have them in a PDF download. Just pop up a PDF that has characters ranging in levels and a little bio at the end. Although I'm not opposed to the sheets being in Pathfinder (my players actually liked the fact that the sheets were so consolidated and RPed more).
::Tosses two coppers on the table::
I noticed that too. Not a single one with Knowledge:Local or Gather Info.......in an 4th level Murder mystery/Investigative quest.
I love the iconics but how the hell are they supposed to find out anything in the Skinsaw Murders?Sense Motive, Knowledge:Local, Diplomacy, and Knowledge:The Planes, all would've been useful skills for the 8th level adventure Gallery of Evil but the iconics have not one single rank in any of them.
What arcane caster wouldn't have a single rank in Knowledge:Arcana by 8th level?
Why doesn't SOMEONE have a couple ranks in diplomacy?
A Rogue who can't Gather Info or Knowledge:Local? By 8th level? That is just stupid.
Like I said, I love the iconic's premise but they are almost unusable in the adventures that they are placed into without at least some useable skills. Kinda hard to defend the iconics getting more space when they are mechanically pathetic.
At least give them the proper skillset that a group of adventurers would have.
FH
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Creative Director
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Keep in mind that the four Iconics we're working with DO have to pull duty over a wide range of adventures. Not only the various installments of Pathfinder (which has different themes in each volume; the murder mystery theme of 2 is quite different from the hack-and-slash tactics and battle of part 4, for example), but the GameMastery adventures have an even WIDER range. We needed our first for iconics to be relatively standard as a result. In addition, when Jason Bulmahn first statted up the iconics, he wasn't able to look over the Pathfinder adventures to see that something like Gather Information would have been necessary for part 2. I doubt he would have made any changes if he had.
And anyway, it's poor adventure design to rely on one or two skills. If Skinsaw Murders REQUIRED skills like Gather Information or Knowledge (local) to advance, a lot of groups playing through it would crash. Having investigative skills certainly makes the adventure easier on the players, but it's far from the only way to complete it. That's what the murderer's letters to the PCs accomplish, for one thing; they're supposed to get more and more blatant about revealing clues if the PCs simply don't catch on to what's going on.
In any case, I still don't feel that space used on the iconics is wasted, anymore than space used on the cover page or the ads in the back is wasted. Especially given the overwhelming amount of requests for information about our Dungeon iconics we received.
Honestly, I find the worries about "losing" a few pages of content to be a huge compliment, since that means that you're SO into Pathfinder that the thought of losing what amounts to about 2% of the product angers you enough to make messageboard posts.
And then again, I personally don't feel that an iconic spread DOES rob content. They ARE content. Their descriptions add value to the world we're building. They can be used as NPCs in the adventure in a pinch. Or as replacement characters. They CERTAINLY add more content than the title page, credits page, and table of contents. It's arguable that they actually provide more gaming content than the foreword or even the Pathfinder Journal.
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And then again, I personally don't feel that an iconic spread DOES rob content. They ARE content. Their descriptions add value to the world we're building. They can be used as NPCs in the adventure in a pinch. Or as replacement characters. They CERTAINLY add more content than the title page, credits page, and table of contents. It's arguable that they actually provide more gaming content than the foreword or even the Pathfinder Journal.
Thats how I feel about it too. I may or may not use the iconics but reading their stats helps paint the picture of other heroes one might encounter in Golarion. I enjoy the iconics, keep em coming. Those two pages entertain me as much if not more than any other two pages in the books.
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Especially given the overwhelming amount of requests for information about our Dungeon iconics we received.
Phew.. it's not just a few annoying fansboys doing all the requesting. ;)
Honestly, I find the worries about "losing" a few pages of content to be a huge compliment, since that means that you're SO into Pathfinder that the thought of losing what amounts to about 2% of the product angers you enough to make messageboard posts.
And then again, I personally don't feel that an iconic spread DOES rob content. They ARE content. Their descriptions add value to the world we're building. They can be used as NPCs in the adventure in a pinch. Or as replacement characters. They CERTAINLY add more content than the title page,...
Exactly, whether PCs, stand-ins for missing players, or NPCs to help along the way, they're a representation of the campaign setting. Which is why we want to see more loving for the Iconics. By having Iconics with fluff attached to them, we can create deeper characters of our own that better fit into this setting.
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I know James answered these questions but I'll throw out some ROLEPLAYING answers since most of them seem ROLLPLAYING issues.
What arcane caster wouldn't have a single rank in Knowledge:Arcana by 8th level?
I would say any Arcane caster that doesn't spend their time studying tomes. You know, Sorcerers.
Why doesn't SOMEONE have a couple ranks in diplomacy?
Because Valeros can bash people with his mug (+7 Intimidate.)
A Rogue who can't Gather Info or Knowledge:Local? By 8th level? That is just stupid.
A rogue who based on other posts, has an INT 8 for a reason. If she's not very smart, she wouldn't be good at any of those things.
At least give them the proper skillset that a group of adventurers would have.
These adventures are supposed to take place after eachother. That means if these characters go from 1 to 2, their skill set doesn't completely change because something is needed now and not before. It's called continuity. Now would the skills you mentioned be useful, yes, but maybe they don't have those skills because they're not those type of people.
Side note, I've played in a few games were the adventurers weren't good at spotting or listening because they were cross class skills. Or just thought that other skills were more important to the type of character they were playing.
For me, it's wasted space.