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Ok, I'm having a few problems with the Daggerspell Mage prestige class.
First the description of their first level ability states that "A daggerspell mage can deliver a touch spell with a dagger attack (either a melee touch attack or anormal melee attack, but not with a thrown dagger)" (Complete Adventurer, 32).
Now defined harshly I would take it as only melee touch spells could be used in conjunction with the melee touch attack or normal melee attack).
But defined generously I would take it as any touch spell could be used in conjunction with the melee touch attack or normal melee attack channeled through the dagger. Herin lies the problem.
Spells such as scorching ray, which create multiple rays, all of which require an attack. Does only the first ray go with the said attack, does the caster make seperate melee attacks for each ray. Or does the caster/attacker get to let loose all of the rays within in that single attack?
Secondly, and one that I'm willing to make exceptions for because of the nature of the class.
If you cast a standard action spell, you cannot attack with a dagger normally? Now taking the Daggercast (Ex) ability, it kind of says you can make a normal melee attack with that dagger and I would assume it does normal dagger damage as well as doing the damage of the channeled spell.
Now taken into account, can you make a regular melee attack on the same round as casting a standard action spell with the Daggercast ability. Still a problem with multiple rays. If you get multiple rays, you get to make multiple attacks. So a daggerspell mage with a caster level of 7 could cast scorching ray and make two melee attacks with a standard action?!!! Wtf? Broken???
My feeling is we are really talking about spells one can normally do with melee touch attacks. Defined this way you will pretty much solve the rest of the issues. attacking some one with a melee touch spell is part of the spell casting process. Presumably the ability to add this to the dagger makes attacking some one with a dagger thats got a touch spell on it part of the spell casting process.
Furthermore adding touch spells to a dagger is not going to lead to much confusion rules wise. These spells where designed to be delivered in melee. Doing so through a dagger should be a piece of cake to adjudicate. Just add the dagger effects on top of whatever the spell does - dead easy.
But once you start trying to deliver range touch attacks through a dagger things are going to get very confusing. Spells made to be used as Range Touch attacks are obviously not designed for melee and their rules won't line up for how things work in melee. Furthermore players will likely want to enhance this ability through choosing feats - but feats designed to deal with ray type spells are not designed to be used in melee - especially coupled with a dagger - so things just get ever more confusing.
I'd just not allow rays to be delivered through the dagger and save yourself the headache.
"Touch spells" are spells with a range of touch; "ranged touch attacks" are something completely different. This ability allows the daggerspell mage to cast shocking grasp, and other spells requiring the caster to touch the target, through a dagger attack (either a normal attack, doing dagger damage in addition to the spell effect, or a touch attack with the dagger, which allows the daggerspell mage to retain the dagger in hand instead of dropping it). Normally, spellcasting and touch spells require a free hand, the Daggercast ability allows a daggerspell mage to ignore that requirement when using a dagger in each hand.
Agreeing with Dragonchess Player - "Touch spells" have a range of touch. There is no such thing as a "Ranged Touch spell". Spells that require a ranged touch attack roll are typically "Effect: Ray" spells, and have a different range entry entirely.
That said, the daggerspell mage would never get a spell and a melee attack, and particularly not two attacks with a standard action (it takes a full round action to get multiple attacks).
Casting the spell is (in this instance) a standard action. Part of that action would be attacking with the dagger to deliver the spell. All that remains is a move action - no additional attacks.
I'm not sure if the rules account for a quickened touch spell - does that give a quickened dagger attack? ... if so an epic daggerspell mage with Multispell several times would be unstoppable.
{Mumblingo to self: Silly broken classes.}
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{Mumbling to self: Silly broken classes.}
I can’t say it's really broken, just not well defined enough.
My issue was I had a potential Sor4/Rog2/DSP1 with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer), that's a BAB of +2 but an (Arcane Caster Level of 7)
But he would have access to Scorching ray as a 7th level caster thus two rays that are both touch attacks.
By his argument he could cast the ray, and then make the two ray attacks as melee attacks with his dagger to hit targets with the rays. (This wasn’t pointed out to me until now what he was attempting to do). He put up a vehement argument in his own favor for using the ranged touch spells with the dagger but it nonetheless seemed ridiculous to even consider a potential multiattack/spellcasting standard action at this point. Until 10th level in the DSP Mage class.
Sometimes it takes the weight of logic from the masses before someone will even consider that their request is ridiculous.
I'll go with the spells with a "Range of Touch" descriptor only, he'll pitch a fit, but I feel like he tried to pull one over on me.
-Stabbity
{Mumbling to self: Silly broken classes.}
I can’t say it's really broken, just not well defined enough.
My issue was I had a potential Sor4/Rog2/DSP1 with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer), that's a BAB of +2 but an (Arcane Caster Level of 7)
But he would have access to Scorching ray as a 7th level caster thus two rays that are both touch attacks.
By his argument he could cast the ray, and then make the two ray attacks as melee attacks with his dagger to hit targets with the rays. (This wasn’t pointed out to me until now what he was attempting to do). He put up a vehement argument in his own favor for using the ranged touch spells with the dagger but it nonetheless seemed ridiculous to even consider a potential multiattack/spellcasting standard action at this point. Until 10th level in the DSP Mage class.
Sometimes it takes the weight of logic from the masses before someone will even consider that their request is ridiculous.
I'll go with the spells with a "Range of Touch" descriptor only, he'll pitch a fit, but I feel like he tried to pull one over on me.
He did try to put one over on you.
1) Practiced Spellcaster only applies to the effective caster level; it does not enable additional spells per day or higher level spells. He only has the spell slots/spells known of a Sor 4, although any spell he casts is as a 7th level caster.
2) Touch spell vs. ranged touch attack; covered above.
Note, however, that ranged touch attacks within 30 ft. can still get sneak attack extra damage against targets that are flat-footed/denied Dex bonus. Also, BAB is +3 (+2 for Sor 4, +1 for Rog 2).
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Um, the spell in question is Scorching Ray.
Scorching Ray is a 2nd Level Sorceror Spell
4th Level Sorcerors get 2nd Level Spells.
A 4th Level Sorceror/With Four Hit Die of anything else with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorceror) will bump the Sorceror caster level up by up to four levels.
Therefore Caster Level is >7th.
Therefore 2 Scorching Rays...
I know he can sneak attack with it, that's not the question, its the number of melee attacks (not touch attacks) he can make with his dagger if he uses Daggercasting to cast Scorching Ray...
Since Daggercast obviously allows you to make one attack with your dagger to impliment a touch spell. What happens if that spell allows for multiple targets with multiple attack rolls?
1. Does the caster get to make additional melee attacks to use those extra rays? (Rediculous as per the example I gave).
2. Does the extra ray just dissappear?
3. Does the caster get to use the extra ray as the spell normally describes?
4. Or can you even use a spell that says you make a ranged touch attack to use it but is not defined as a touch spell by spell mechanics. Earlier you were very correct that in a spells description there are pretty much only about five range types of spells.
Personal
Touch
Short/Medium/Long
So are we limited to only spells with a range of touch which is what I'm beginning to believe strongly in due to complexity of higher level spells.
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So are we limited to only spells with a range of touch which is what I'm beginning to believe strongly in due to complexity of higher level spells.
Yes, only spells with a range of "Touch" can be used by the ability. If the spell allows multiple touches (such as chill touch), the character can only deliver one touch in the round he casts the spell. Thereafter, as long as he maintains the spell, he can deliver as many touches as his BAB allows.
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My current character is a Rog 1/Sor 5/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 1, and I started playing him at first level, in our Age of Worms campaign.
The concensus here is correct; the Daggercast ability lets you deliver a touch spell, which is a spell with the "touch" range. Spells that require a ranged touch attack are different.
The ambiguous part to me is whether or not you can cast the touch spell and then immediately make the dagger attack to deliver it. It seems that most touch spells allow you/require you to immediately touch the target, but when playing my Daggerspell Mage, I've always had him cast the touch spell, and then hold the charge on his dagger to deliver it with his next successful attack. I'm not certain that's the right way to handle the ability, but it seemed balanced and appropriate to me.
I don't think it would be gamebreaking to allow the Daggercast ability to effectively turn a touch spell into a move-equivalent action and then use a dagger attack to deliver it, as has been suggested, but the rules seem ambiguous to me on this point.
I certainly wouldn't treat it as Quickening the spell and thereby allow a full-attack action with the daggers plus the touch spell; that's basically what the level 10 ability "Daggerspell Flurry" does. (Though it's worth noting that Flurry allows any spell to be cast with the full-attack action, not just touch spells.)
Even with these restrictions, daggerspell mages are fun to play, and can become shockingly effective at high levels, especially if other splatbooks are allowed (a safe assumption if you're playing with daggerspell mages, which themselves are from a splatbook).
Personally, I can't wait until my max level Daggerspell Mage gets a chance to hold a maximized "Night's Caress" spell on both daggers (Spell Compendium; it's a lvl 5 touch spell which caps out at 15d6 damage plus 1d6+2 Con damage) using the double daggercast ability, then deliver them both in the same round along with a maximized disintegrate spell (36d6 damage--would be 40d6 but multiclassing prevents a daggerspell mage from reaching caster level 20) as part of a daggerspell flurry. Oh, and I'd be sure to cast true strike the round before the attack, for +20 on the disintegrate spell's ranged touch attack...
90 (maximized night's caress) + 90 (maximized night's caress) + 216 (maximized disintegrate at CL 18) + 16 Constitution damage (maximized night's caress x2).
Assuming all strikes hit and all saves are failed: that's 396 unclassified damage (non-energy, so no resistances/immunities apply), plus an additional loss of hit points equal to 8 times the victim's hit dice due to Constitution damage.
And that's before you add the damage from the dagger hits (1d4, plus strength, magic, etc bonuses for each), enchantments on the daggers themselves, and sneak attack damage, if applicable (6d6 for a maxed out rogue/sor/daggerspell mage/arcane trickster).
Yummy. :)
Now, consider this: each of these spells requires an attack roll, which means they can crit...
Unbelievably perfect serendipity of failed saves, critical hits, etc: 792 damage + Con loss + dagger damage (can also crit), plus sneak attack. If the target is a 20 HD creature, the Con loss strips away 160 hit points, bringing us very close to 1,000 damage in a single round.
Savage Tide spoiler:
Woot.
Perhaps so, but what are the chances of failed saves on that particular target...not to likely. ^_^
I have also played one. Mine is a Rogue 3/Warmage 6/Daggerspell Mage 10. Bear in mind this character is at this point retired and is a recurring NPC in my games now and has been for some time.
I essentially played him, as the rules were interpreted. After casting a Touch range spell, the daggerspell mage can then use an attack with a dagger to deliver the attack.
Letting a DsM do this is really not that much different from letting them use a melee touch to deliver the spell. Yes, there is the possibility of sneak attack damage, basic dagger damage, etc, but over all, this is the core ability of the class. Its not overpowered.
As for using a spell that requires a 'ranged touch attack' to hit, but is not a spell with a range of touch? NO, a definate no. I certainly did not try to deliver Orbs of Acid with my daggers. That is a blatant misinterpretation of the rules.
As far as Double Daggercast is concerned, the rules, to me, as both a DM and a player seem quite clear, two seperate spells are required, no dividing or doubling a spell to both daggers or any nonesense like that. The benefit is to be able to go into battle with your daggers charged by a spell that is essentially already cast and is delivered on your attack(s). Bear in mind that with this ability, you could Full-attack and discharge both of the held spells on the same or different targets, provided they are both in melee with the DsM.
And Daggerspell Flurry was already discussed by Master Cartographer Chris West. In my understanding, it functions as he described. Bear in mind though, to have two Night Caress' going, you would have to cast both in rounds previous to your daggerspell flurry attempt and then hold them on your daggers until the time comes.
Also do bear in mind, essentially any character class can be tweaked like this given the right magic items, spells, feats and suitably genius player, or DM for that matter.
If you have a player that insists on miusing the rules as the DsM player in the original post seems to be trying, turn the tables. Have him fight an old rival, a daggerspell mage, or shaper for that matter, who has a beef to pick with him. Use his interpretation of the spell type rules. Do not make it a fair encounter.
After the smoke clears, ask him/her if they really think this interpretation is right or too powerful. I'm not advocating killing them outright, but if it happens it happens. This is a player who needs to learn the lesson that the DM is always right. They might think they are getting one over on the DM, but the DMs job is to understand and make ruling to improve gameplay and balance. Make sure they know that and show no more mercy.
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Bear in mind though, to have two Night Caress' going, you would have to cast both in rounds previous to your daggerspell flurry attempt and then hold them on your daggers until the time comes.
Quite right. So my statement about "doing this much damage in one round" might be a bit misleading, since it assumes that the Daggerspell Mage comes into the fight with spells pre-cast.
I envision my character as a sneaky bad-guy-slayer with a few too many scruples to take the assassin class. That said, Night's Caress is an [Evil] spell, so his moral high ground is shaky indeed. While I haven't had much of a chance to use him in this way in our Age of Worms campaign, I relish the thought of taking him on a stealth mission to kill an enemy commander while the rest of the party unleashes a full-frontal assault on the minions. Improved invisibility + daggerspell mage with touch spells charged on both daggers, plus metamagically silent True Strike = one heck of a sneak attack!
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On a related note, how would you folks adjucate the use of a Wish spell to create the following effect: "I wish for all of my attacks to critically hit my intended target next round." (Rephrased to work in-character, of course, but you see what I'm getting at. In character, it might be something like: "I wish for my next three attacks to strike my enemy with perfect precision.")
Too powerful? Or appropriate to the intended power level of a ninth level spell? My gut tells me it's fairly tame compared to other uses of the spell, but then you need only read above to see just how deadly it could become...
On a related note, how would you folks adjucate the use of a Wish spell to create the following effect: "I wish for all of my attacks to critically hit my intended target next round." (Rephrased to work in-character, of course, but you see what I'm getting at. In character, it might be something like: "I wish for my next three attacks to strike my enemy with perfect precision.")
Too powerful? Or appropriate to the intended power level of a ninth level spell? My gut tells me it's fairly tame compared to other uses of the spell, but then you need only read above to see just how deadly it could become...
As long as the XP requirement is enforced, I'd say that it's not over the top. It's not something that would be a common tactic (5,000 XP is a steep sacrifice), but as a way to one-shot an opponent in a critical fight it would work.
One comment on true strike, though: it only adds to one attack roll ("Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus"), so if the disintegrate gets the bonus, the dagger attacks don't. Also, the DM can be a stickler about the Daggerspell Flurry ability allowing the casting as part of a full attack action, meaning the first dagger attack would technically come before the disintegrate spell.
Improved invisibility + daggerspell mage with touch spells charged on both daggers, plus metamagically silent True Strike = one heck of a sneak attack!
Wait... can you hold the charge on your daggers and still cast other spells (in this case, true strike)? If so, couldn't a DsM just walk around all day with, say, shocking grasp on his daggers, just waiting for some fool to jump him?
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As long as the XP requirement is enforced, I'd say that it's not over the top. It's not something that would be a common tactic (5,000 XP is a steep sacrifice), but as a way to one-shot an opponent in a critical fight it would work.
Thanks. I felt that way, myself, but I wasn't sure if others would view it in the same light.
One comment on true strike, though: it only adds to one attack roll ("Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus"), so if the disintegrate gets the bonus, the dagger attacks don't.
True.
Also, the DM can be a stickler about the Daggerspell Flurry ability allowing the casting as part of a full attack action, meaning the first dagger attack would technically come before the disintegrate spell.
Hmm. I'd need to review the rules to be sure, but doesn't a full attack action let you designate targets one at a time and resolve your attacks in the order you wish? If you have a dagger in one hand and a sword in the other, you decide which weapon takes priority, so I would assume that the same logic applies if a spell is one of your attacks in that same action: you could choose to give it priority instead. The DM would always have the final say on this, of course, but I think if the Disintegrate spell is a part of that full attack action, the acting player could choose to resolve it first, thus expending the True Strike on its attack roll. Nothing in the ability description suggests that you have to resolve the melee strikes first; it simply says that the spell is treated as part of the same action.
That said, there are some reasons why one might want to apply True Strike to the melee attacks instead: The ranged touch attack of the spell is probably more likely to succeed on its own than the melee attacks, because it uses the target's touch AC instead of the regular AC. Plus, if the dagger strike misses, its associated touch spell held on the dagger also misses, causing you to lose two sources of damage that round.
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Wait... can you hold the charge on your daggers and still cast other spells (in this case, true strike)? If so, couldn't a DsM just walk around all day with, say, shocking grasp on his daggers, just waiting for some fool to jump him?
Yes, technically. :)
The touch spell on a dagger is lost if it leaves the DsM's hand for any reason (other than an Arcane Throw to deliver the spell via a thrown dagger), but DsMs can cast spells while holding daggers in both hands so they rarely need to worry about that.
If you interpret things in such ways, yes.
Being reasonable, which is something I require from all players in my games personally, that is completely not feasible.
Even the DsM would forget they were charged and zap themselves before long. Not to mention if somebody bumped you. I essentially rule that using Daggercast lasts for basically a scene for non-combat, or 1 round per class (note: Class, not Character) level of the DsM for in combat.
Please note also: Nowhere in the text of the class does it say that you can hold a charge in your weapons for an extended period of time. The Class assumes that the spell is held for the purpose of using it soon. No spell has its duration held in abeyance by this ability. As has been stated, the language is rather unclear on this. The class is great, the authorship is missing some points.
Compare the ability to that of the Soulknifes Psychic Strike. They can also go around with that charged, all day by the rules, and it even states that pretty specifically for that class. When someone tries something that goes against the 'Spirit' of a rule I tend to punish/train them in creative ways, especially if they want to harp on something after a ruling. Anyone who plays a character that wants to walk around with a lightning crackling dagger (visual effect only, spell immaterial in this example) in their hand is asking for all kinds of trouble.
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I essentially rule that using Daggercast lasts for basically a scene for non-combat, or 1 round per class (note: Class, not Character) level of the DsM for in combat.
This duration seems fairly reasonable to me, since a DsM in combat is unlikely to need to hold the charge longer than a few rounds anyway, but it does put a restriction on the ability that wasn't apparently intended. Double Daggercast does say that the DsM can hold the charge for one touch spell in each dagger, and that he/she needs to specify which dagger holds which spell when the spells are cast. That ability clearly assumes that the spells can be held longer than the "Instant" duration of most touch spells.
As you point out, no new duration is specified by the ability, other than to say that the spells dissipate when the daggers leave the DsM's hands. Assigning a new duration (rounds equal to the character's class levels, which is a minimum of 5 with this ability since it's a 5th level DsM class ability) is certainly within the purview of the DM, but it is pretty arbitrary. In my opinion, this is where good roleplaying comes in. You can't assume that a DsM always walks around with spells held on the daggers, because there are a lot of situations where walking around with blades out will get you into deep trouble, and others where it is simply impractical. Eventually that DsM will need to go to the bathroom, or want to rummage around in his pack for something, reach for a potion, and so on. But if a DsM is patiently stalking a villain and waiting for the right moment to strike, it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that he could safely hold a charge on his daggers for more than five to ten rounds. If the character is focused on the task at hand, I wouldn't arbitrarily penalize him for preparing for the fight well ahead of time.
Long story short: I wouldn't curtail the duration of the ability unless the player was abusing it or events in the game naturally intervene.
As has been stated, the language is rather unclear on this. The class is great, the authorship is missing some points.
Granted. :)
Yeah I do agree with you on that Chris. Thats kinda why I stated that I use various rules on this.
Hmm...this comes across rather arbitrary too....
By in combat, I mean cast in combat. Things are a little to fast and furious to really leave the spells on those dagger (and I as a DM am just a willing to try new variances as anyone). I think my using the term 'scene' might not have come across right though.
By scene I mean the nebulous type scene implied in WW games. So yes, if a DsM is hiding out waiting for a BBEG with spells charged, it basically will last until he uses it in that scene. I wouldn't all of a sudden change it to 1 round per level once the battle started.
As this said, I really only stated the 1 round/level time as a guide. I personally haven't had to use it. No PC I have come across has tried to abuse the rules in such a way for me, so there really hasn't been a need to set strict rules for it. It was how I would probably handle it to start if someone was abusing it, and expand to find a proper balance from there.
And yes, you're right, I was being totally arbitrary. I apologize for that. Don't deny me your awesome maps. Just like you I love this class.
Of course, now having written this (and the previous post) and heard feedback, I am reconsidering my position on this. The simple duration for daggercast essentially cracks the class of its Core ability. Daggercasting is what the class does.
As I said before, maybe just use the Soulknife for a guide. They can walk around with a charged ability without restriction, who are we to gainsay the Daggerspell Mage for a similar ability?
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Wait... can you hold the charge on your daggers and still cast other spells (in this case, true strike)? If so, couldn't a DsM just walk around all day with, say, shocking grasp on his daggers, just waiting for some fool to jump him?
Yes, technically. :)
The touch spell on a dagger is lost if it leaves the DsM's hand for any reason (other than an Arcane Throw to deliver the spell via a thrown dagger), but DsMs can cast spells while holding daggers in both hands so they rarely need to worry about that.
Take a look at PHB, page 176...
Touch Spells and holding the Charge
...if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can postpone the discharge of the spell indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
(Goes on to say that for spells with multiple targets, you must touch all recipients same round as spell is cast; makes sense with teleport, since you'll have left the scene...)
This is further complicated by the fact that some spells are one-shots, which are dissipated once the one touch is delivered, while others (such as Produce Flame) allow the caster to make multiple attacks within a specific time-frame.
So, (until you gain the Double Daggercast ability) you can cast a spell, and hold it, in your dagger-hand, but that's it. As soon as you try to cast another spell (even if it's free, swift, immediate, still, silent, etc), you stop concentrating, and the first dissipates, so that 3-spell combo that (theoretically) deals 1000hp damage in a round is a non-starter.
You could, however, deliver the single Night's Caress, via an attack, and follow it up with a quickened Disintegrate, which would benefit from their now-possibly-reduced Fort bonus...which is still nasty.
First Rule of Player-Combos: check every step of the maneuvre.
First Law of Player-Combos: If It Looks Too Good To Be True...It Probably Is!
Of course; I'd have to read up on the specifics of the DSM (I'm at work right now). If their Double Daggercast class ability specifically states they can cast, hold the charge, cast again, and hold both, then forget what I said. But the above should still apply if the second spell is not a touch spell, or the caster chooses not to store it.
Once 2 spells are held, again the same rules apply, that no further spells can be cast, without dissipating both.
So the same tactics apply to dealing with a DSM, as for any caster with a Shocking Grasp, etc held. Namely, you force them into a situation where they have to choose between saving themselves with another spell, or losing the charge on the one they hold (or both, in the case of a DSM).
Sorry..... 8-)
We have been Snorted
Thanks Snorter for clarifying that point about Touch Spells. Its ridiculous what things you forget sometimes when trying to consider a rule. ^_^
I am such a dork sometimes.
Oh, and since I missed this point from the OPer. No you cannot make multiple dagger attacks just because the spell would say you make multiple touches. I don't think there are any spells with Touch range that grant multiple simultaneous attacks anyway. Just your player trying to get you to allow Scorching Ray as a Touch. Hes wrong, definately.
Once 2 spells are held, again the same rules apply, that no further spells can be cast, without dissipating both.
So the same tactics apply to dealing with a DSM, as for any caster with a Shocking Grasp, etc held. Namely, you force them into a situation where they have to choose between saving themselves with another spell, or losing (keeping?) the charge on the one they hold (or both, in the case of a DSM).
Yeah, that was my ruling as well. Once those daggers are charged, you can't just go around casting other spells and expect them to stay charged. The DsM player had no problem at all with my logic; just wondered what you guys' take on it was.
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Touch Spells and holding the Charge
...if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can postpone the discharge of the spell indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Thanks for the page reference! I was looking for this entry the other day and couldn't find it right away.
So, you can cast a spell, and hold it, in your dagger-hand, but that's it. As soon as you try to cast another spell (even if it's free, swift, immediate, still, silent, etc), you stop concentrating, and the first dissipates, so that 3-spell combo that (theoretically) deals 1000hp damage in a round is a non-starter.
Actually it's not. Double Daggercast allows you to hold a different touch spell on each dagger, which plainly establishes that casting the second touch spell into the second dagger does not discharge the first one.
So the three-spell combo described above does work, even if you rule that a third casting would dissipate one (or even both) of the held touch spells: the acting character would simply have to use the dagger strikes first during the Daggerspell Flurry full-attack action. It nerfs the use of True Strike for the disintegrate (a dagger would get the bonus instead), but the damage potential outlined above is unaffected.
You could, however, deliver the single Night's Caress, via an attack, and follow it up with a quickened Disintegrate, which would benefit from their now-possibly-reduced Fort bonus...which is still nasty.
Actually, spontaneous casters (my character is a sorcerer) can't use Quicken Spell by the standard rules, because metamagic feats require longer casting times for them. You'd probably need a magic item that allows them to quicken it; the feat alone wouldn't do it. A DsM based on wizard levels instead of sorcerer would be able to quicken one, though.
That said, Daggerspell Flurry is quite clear that it allows you to use your dagger attacks in the same round as another spell; if the daggers are holding touch spells already, you just need to strike with those first to avoid having the disintegrate discharge one. (I'd even suggest that discharging one of the touch spells on the enemy would allow you to cast the disintegrate next, without losing the other touch spell, but that depends even more heavily on the DM's interpretation. The rule isn't as clear on this as it should be.)
Double Daggercast [Ex] As a daggerspell mage advances in level, the connection between his spellcasting abilites and his two-dagger fighting style strengthens. At 5th level and higher, amage can hold the charge for one touch spell for each dagger he is holding in his hands. He must designate which dagger holds each touch spell at the time the spell is cast. If one of these daggers leaves the daggerspell mage's hands, the spell immediately discharges harmlessly (unless the dagger is thrown by a mage with the arcane throw ability; see below).
I can see how a DM might rule that further spellcasting would still discharge a held touch spell, even with this ability, though as a DM I don't think it would break the game to let a DsM to hold those charges while casting other spells. It seems appropriate to the class, at any rate.
Using two Night's Caress spells with this Double Daggercast ability and combining it with a Daggerspell Flurry attack to fire off a Disintegrate on the same round you deliver the touch spells is nasty, and quite munchkiny, but it definitely works within the rules.
Look on the bright side: I could have suggested using this tactic with a dagger-wielding marilith. The ability's name is "Double" Daggercast, but the way the text is written, the maximum number of touch spells is based on the number of dagger-wielding hands...
Now THAT is broken. :)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Actually, spontaneous casters (my character is a sorcerer) can't use Quicken Spell by the standard rules, because metamagic feats require longer casting times for them. You'd probably need a magic item that allows them to quicken it; the feat alone wouldn't do it. A DsM based on wizard levels instead of sorcerer would be able to quicken one, though.
There's a simple fix for this: In the PHB2, there is a variant sorcerer that sacrifices the familiar (something that isn't often used by multi-classed casters anyway) for the ability to cast metamagicked spells normally!
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Yeah, that was my ruling as well. Once those daggers are charged, you can't just go around casting other spells and expect them to stay charged. The DsM player had no problem at all with my logic; just wondered what you guys' take on it was.
In all the time I've been playing my DsM, this has never really come up as anything more than a theoretical situation. I have all kinds of ideas for using quickened True Strike and Wraithstrike (a swift spell) and other spells, silently and while invisible, etc, to enhance the attacks of daggers bearing touch spells, but circumstances have never allowed me to do it.
This one would be a good question for Sage Advice, and I might have to run it past Andy sometime. A literal reading of the rules may very well support the idea that even a Daggerspell Mage can't cast further spells while holding charges on his/her daggers. I think that would be a shame, though, as it would detract a bit from the flavor and potential of the class.
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There's a simple fix for this: In the PHB2, there is a variant sorcerer that sacrifices the familiar (something that isn't often used by multi-classed casters anyway) for the ability to cast metamagicked spells normally!
Ah, very interesting! My Daggerspell Mage actually started as a wizard who took a Forlorn flaw (no familiar) from Unearthed Arcana in exchange for a feat. Shorlty after the midway point in the campaign, I introduced a major artifact that allowed the players to rebuild their characters from the ground up, one time only. Basic character concept had to remain the same, but each player was free to choose different class levels in a different order. My DsM, who is an in-party NPC since my group only has two other players, swapped out his Wizard levels for Sorcerer. In essence, his spellcasting ability was burned into his blood while his ability to prepare spells in an academic way was stripped away. Very painful.
I allowed this for a couple of reasons: First, the players were all new to high-level play, and this let them go back and make different decisions to prepare their characters for prestige classes they hadn't considered earlier, etc. Second, I realized that I wasn't using my wizard to his full potential because as DM I had to prepare all of the adventures and I never had time to pick out a new spell list each morning based on changing circumstances (the core strength of a wizard is the variety of available spells, and I wasn't able to take advantage of that). Getting through the Age of Worms with only three characters requires everyone to play to their strengths and optimize their characters as best they can.
Anyway, I like that variant sorcerer idea. It seems balanced to me, but then I've always allowed sorcerers to get Quicken Spell anyway. I figure if anyone should be able to manifest a spell in a heartbeat, it's a person with magic in their blood...
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By the way, Stabbity raised a point in the original post to which I'd like to add another observation:
Now taking the Daggercast (Ex) ability, it kind of says you can make a normal melee attack with that dagger and I would assume it does normal dagger damage as well as doing the damage of the channeled spell.
This is true, but it's worth noting that this attack would need to use the target's normal AC in order to deliver the dagger hit. Normally a touch spell uses the target's touch AC, so linking the touch spell to a dagger attack actually makes it slightly harder (in most cases) to successfully deliver the touch spell.
That said, I would personally suggest that the touch spell might still trigger if the attack was good enough to hit the touch AC, even if it wasn't good enough to hit the standard AC. This would describe a situation where contact was made (and thus, the touch spell discharged) but the target's armor turned away the blade. Anyone else think this is a fair way to handle it?
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I would personally suggest that the touch spell might still trigger if the attack was good enough to hit the touch AC, even if it wasn't good enough to hit the standard AC. This would describe a situation where contact was made (and thus, the touch spell discharged) but the target's armor turned away the blade. Anyone else think this is a fair way to handle it?
That's certainly the way we always ran Shocking Grasp from 1st Edition onwards; ie, we were onboard with the concept of 'touch AC' and 'flat-footed AC' even back then.
Eg; you can miss totally, connect but not get through armour (doing just spell damage), or totally hit (doing spell damage, plus weapon damage on top).
This was also the way we ran Mirror Images; ie only Dex applied to AC.
This is obviously the 3.5E way, but it wasn't always the official rule...