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As I read the higher level adventures for Savage Tide, sometimes my eyes go dry from being opened so wide and I have to blink.
For instance, freeing Shami. A torrent of Styx 40 feet wide dumps into her prison pit (assuming she is still there in the few rounds after she regains herself), which just happens to be... 40 feet wide. On the second round, anyone in the area of effect is automatically hit by the water. Teleport and planar travel are blocked. And, PCs are supposed to avoid this... how?
That's just one example of encounters that can be severely nasty in the 16+ level portions of this campaign. Granted, I've never run a campaign past 14th level, so I don't know what high level play in 3.x can really be like. But holy cripes, I can see where PCs that just passively allow situations to happen and deal with them will suffer a TPK from complications if they don't have the foresight to prepare beforehand, and prepare correctly at that!
Is this common in high level play? How have the higher level portions gone? Has anyone beat it yet?
well, WoD has received some severe critiques in another thread a while back, and much will depend upon personal GMing style.
But yes, some encounters can be pretty harsh unless the group is quick on the uptake and pretty resourceful.
To be honest, I will be pretty satisfied if my group makes it through SoS and into Divided Ire, getting Lavinia out. If they manage to pull that one off, I am tempted to call it an end, unless the players really want to press on.
And I will likely change a lot of stuff in WoD ( there is too much "you open the door and ..."roll for initiative" stuff in it for me, besides all the problems Ahazu etc. presents )... EomE looks very interesting though and well, PoD, now that will be one epic one-of-a kind chance to really change something about the planes as tehy know them. Which I am tempted to offer !
Seems the right way to handle the pit is to leave most of the part up, one flier goes down to do the ritual... combat starts, and flies up, while the rest do ranged attacks.,..
Once shes regained, none are in the pit anymore.
As I read the higher level adventures for Savage Tide, sometimes my eyes go dry from being opened so wide and I have to blink.
For instance, freeing Shami. A torrent of Styx 40 feet wide dumps into her prison pit (assuming she is still there in the few rounds after she regains herself), which just happens to be... 40 feet wide. On the second round, anyone in the area of effect is automatically hit by the water. Teleport and planar travel are blocked. And, PCs are supposed to avoid this... how?
A cube of force, a hemispherical wall of ice, or shaped wall of stone can provide protection to those within it. A wall of force can protect the entire shaft (the spell description says "vertical," but most DMs would probably allow the caster to choose the orientation of the plane). Once protected, they can use passwall or a limited wish to turn the party incorporeal to leave the shaft.
High level play is all about advance planning and preparation. Creative use of common spells, especially, can mean the difference between breezing through "difficult" situations and TPKs/near TPKs. This is one reason why spellcasters (who understand the spells they can cast and choose accordingly) are so vital to high level play.
As I read the higher level adventures for Savage Tide, sometimes my eyes go dry from being opened so wide and I have to blink.
For instance, freeing Shami. A torrent of Styx 40 feet wide dumps into her prison pit (assuming she is still there in the few rounds after she regains herself), which just happens to be... 40 feet wide.
What is the climb DC for those trees? Even at the minus for rushing a climb check I would think one can simply 'walk' out of the way. I too thought it might be difficult, but decided that 40 feet is a double move for slow characters and knowing my players they will all have some magical movement by then, especially after the advantage flight will grant in the City of Darkness or for someone washed overboard in SWW (or any other adventure).
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Well, at the very least I'm assuming that the rift opens up above ground, over the pit. At first I also assumed that if Shami was in the pit at the time, that it would appear centered over the pit, not allowing any place in the pit to avoid being hit with water for the entire 100' depth, since the radius of the torrent equals the radius of the pit. That's a lot of water to fly through and avoid losing your memories.
As I read it again, however, that 40 ft wide column of water appears directly over Shami, and wouldn't perfectly cover the pit if she isn't standing in the exact center. So if I rule it that way and assume she is off-center, or at least on her way out, PC's could in fact dive out of the way of the initial dump then quickly work their way up as the water line rises.
The players can thank me later, if I ever run this thing :(
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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A cube of force, a hemispherical wall of ice, or shaped wall of stone can provide protection to those within it. A wall of force can protect the entire shaft (the spell description says "vertical," but most DMs would probably allow the caster to choose the orientation of the plane). Once protected, they can use passwall or a limited wish to turn the party incorporeal to leave the shaft.
You most definitely cannot choose the orientation of a wall of force, any more than you can a wall of iron.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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There was a picture in some WotC book about high-level play (maybe the Epic Level Handbook, but maybe not) that forever turned me off to the notion of high-level play.
The picture featured the party venturing down a hallway. Towards the end of this hallway was a spiked pit with a beholder in the bottom (using the antimagic cone to prevent PCs from simply flying across) and an illusory wall that was concealing an elder black dragon. This kind of scenario is just downright absurd if you ask me and all of my high-level games have simply featured larger groups of enemies instead of convoluted trap sequences like this.
My group really wants to finish out the AP, but we raely play above 14th level. They tend to be not very focused and not always the strongest on rules including spells, so my guess is I'll either have to change a lot or they will die. I haven't decided which as of yet.
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My group really wants to finish out the AP, but we raely play above 14th level. They tend to be not very focused and not always the strongest on rules including spells, so my guess is I'll either have to change a lot or they will die. I haven't decided which as of yet.
In that case I would say F the rules.The game is about having fun and your fun at this point in the campaign is being ruined the go with the flow and adlib things to suit your groups tastes.
How ever with a little preperation Im sure you and your group could over come this difficulty. The AP's provide an excellent oppourtunity to learn the rules. So then the next AP (or whatever) 14+ adventure you play in you will all be better prepared to deal with it.
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Making use of the Action Points in the SRD might ease up on the difficulty a bit.
It gives PC's a few wild cards to play, but they can only use them before you tell them if they make their save, not after. I might preface the call for a saving throw with a certain inflection. "Ok, I need a Fortitude save" means it's a run of the mill saving throw. If I belt out a thunderous "SAVE!", that means it better be a good roll on the class's good save!
How ever with a little preperation Im sure you and your group could over come this difficulty. The AP's provide an excellent oppourtunity to learn the rules. So then the next AP (or whatever) 14+ adventure you play in you will all be better prepared to deal with it.
Yep. Preparation is the key. While my group know the rules well enough we don't have any major arcane or divine spellcasters which means I have to pay extra attention to every upcoming event in the path to ensure that they either have the means to bypass/deal with it or time to equip themselves to do so.
How ever with a little preperation Im sure you and your group could over come this difficulty. The AP's provide an excellent oppourtunity to learn the rules. So then the next AP (or whatever) 14+ adventure you play in you will all be better prepared to deal with it.Yep. Preparation is the key. While my group know the rules well enough we don't have any major arcane or divine spellcasters which means I have to pay extra attention to every upcoming event in the path to ensure that they either have the means to bypass/deal with it or time to equip themselves to do so.
Or you can just let things run their course. PCs always win in the end - Even if you don't play with resurrection type magic and there are only 4 of 'em at any one time there are an infinite number of replacements waiting to fill those 4 pairs of boots. The bad guys don't have reinforcements on that scale.
In D&D dying is a great teacher.
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I figured if I were to run this, I'd make it clear that the players would need to be ready to replace their characters if they don't want the complications of raising them (ie repeated level loss, or whatever variant is used - loss of XP only, or negative levels, etc.). At least that way, expectations could be properly set.
Still, there's something to be said about a PC that survives from 1st all the way to 20th. I remember how attached I got to my 1e characters, but I digress.
You most definitely cannot choose the orientation of a wall of force, any more than you can a wall of iron.
A cube of force, a hemispherical wall of ice, or shaped wall of stone can provide protection to those within it. A wall of force can protect the entire shaft (the spell description says "vertical," but most DMs would probably allow the caster to choose the orientation of the plane). Once protected, they can use passwall or a limited wish to turn the party incorporeal to leave the shaft.
As the wall of force is written, it must be a single vertical plane. However, a DM can alter that to a single plane of any orientation without over-powering the spell, IMO. Alternately, there is nothing preventing a player from researching a variant that allows a choice of orientation as a 6th level spell, if the DM thinks that is too powerful for the 5th level version.
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As the wall of force is written, it must be a single vertical plane. However, a DM can alter that to a single plane of any orientation without over-powering the spell, IMO. Alternately, there is nothing preventing a player from researching a variant that allows a choice of orientation as a 6th level spell, if the DM thinks that is too powerful for the 5th level version.
The way we do things like this is that you need to choose the orientation when preparing it for the day - that way mid casting you don't need to think of corrections to the spell words/componants
Yep. Preparation is the key. While my group know the rules well enough we don't have any major arcane or divine spellcasters which means I have to pay extra attention to every upcoming event in the path to ensure that they either have the means to bypass/deal with it or time to equip themselves to do so.
That's pretty amazing that you'd made it far in a group with dedicated divine/arcane casters. Toward the end of the AP, I have no idea how you're supposed to survive some of the fights without the aid of some pretty spectacular spellcasting.
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One of Otiluke's Sphere spells will easily protect the PCs from the deluge. There's probably lots of other similar options to prevent contact with the water, ranging from the unlikely (reverse gravity!) to straightforward (fly up fast!). Climbing into a bag of holding and having an elemental minion carry it out of the pit might be one (rather bizarre) option, assuming the minion is somehow immune to the memory loss effect or can itself avoid being hit. I'm sure my players would come up with even more off-the-wall ideas.
My point is: at that level of play, the DM basically has to assume that the players will have a solution to pretty much anything, given a round or two to think about it. If you're concerned that they won't find a solution fast enough in this case, just delay the onset of the downpour. :)
Yep. Preparation is the key. While my group know the rules well enough we don't have any major arcane or divine spellcasters which means I have to pay extra attention to every upcoming event in the path to ensure that they either have the means to bypass/deal with it or time to equip themselves to do so.
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That's pretty amazing that you'd made it far in a group with dedicated divine/arcane casters. Toward the end of the AP, I have no idea how you're supposed to survive some of the fights without the aid of some pretty spectacular spellcasting.
Watch your quotes please - I did not write the quoted text. Nothing more disturbing then having people believe you wrote something you did not actually write. Plus if its a brilliant piece of prose the true author deserves the credit.
For the record Acconninja wrote the quoted text.
My point is: at that level of play, the DM basically has to assume that the players will have a solution to pretty much anything, given a round or two to think about it. If you're concerned that they won't find a solution fast enough in this case, just delay the onset of the downpour. :)
Thats how I play it at these levels as well. I barely bother with worrying about how the players will avoid my unbeatable trap - in my experience they always manage to come up with several ways to I had never dreamed of to confound me.