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I think one thing the revampers at wotc have forgotten is that just because demons are chaotic, that doesnt mean stupid rampaging 'hulk smash' (as someone so correctly put it earlier). The important thing to remember about chaos is, it's chaotic, meaning it can be ANYTHING. That's kinda the point, not just destruction. Chaos is the power to do/be anything. That it the true power of chaos.
I dunno, both 1st and 2nd edition MM's describe the lesser demons as often attacking without question and fighting until slain. Which is very "hulk smash-like". The mariliths are listed as being charged with coordinating the actions of the demons but due to the chaotic nature of the creatures it is not really possible to do.
So, I don't think this new stuff is too off base in this regard.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Again, slow down and read my post guy. I was being tongue-in-cheek and basically turned an amalgam of phrases that I have had to suffer through from 3e fans due to me being a fan of previous editions. It was showing the irony of what numerous 3e'ers have been saying over the past several years back on them.
Let me begin by saying you're completely wrong for hating 3e, which is in fact the best thing to happen to the game since the d20.
But, that being said, I am laughing my ass off at your dispension of comeuppance. Well played.
MM's describe the lesser demons as often attacking without question and fighting until slain. Which is very "hulk smash-like".
But that is low level grunts. That's true for most groups. My point is upper levels in the demon ranks (if ranks even applies anymore).
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But that is low level grunts. That's true for most groups. My point is upper levels in the demon ranks (if ranks even applies anymore).
Yeah, but I think many folks are missing that from the DDI article. Let me point out this snippet from it:
Most demons are savage and fearless engines of annihilation. Although sometimes driven by unspeakable yearning or by horrifying demon lords to gather in groups, demons have no real organization and no singular aim.
See, very little change in that regard and very fitting with the original descriptions of them in previous editions.
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I have been extremely open minded about 4th edition and early on spent quite a bit of time defending the decision. That said, with each new announcement I am getting more and more disappointed with what it is shaping up to be. I mean why even call it Dungeons and Dragons at all? Why not just admit that they are trashing the 30 magnificent years of the games lore and history, and don't give a flying dog feces about what their customers want. Seriously, the game they are describing so far sounds like some sleep deprived wacko up playing WoW and Evercrack while simultaneously sniffing Crank and drinking 37 cases of jolt and not taking their Ritalin for ADHD just decided, "hey, tabletop D&D is so suck, it should be more like this" right before getting a stroke from his 72 hour crank/sugar induced gaming bender.
The fact that they are wrapping this pile of dog excrement in a box and calling it D&D pisses me off. If you want to make some new game because you think the market for traditional D&D is dead, by all means do so, but sell the freaking license to real gamers who love the game so that real D&D isn't sacrificed at the altar of whatever idiot is running this circus.
Just read the latest info on ENWorld and, as usual, their summary of the various blog posts by the 4e designers is more informative and interesting than the articles posted on the WotC website.
Which means it's just a matter of time until WotC buys ENWorld and shuts it down to preserve the information monopoly.
My point exactly. As 4e shows why would they possibly stick to tradition. It is time to think outside of the box Aberzombie, trust me they may make mistakes, there is no such thing as a perfect game, but they will not make the same gaffe as they did with 3.0--3.5. They are aware the stand on tenuous ground, and a quick revision in the form of 4.5 would be disastrous. It will not happen.In your heart of hearts, you and I both know there will be no 4.5. A fifth edition eventually, of course, but no 4.5.Of course, it isn't like they haven't set a precedence for it. Oh wait, they have....
Harrrumph! They just made the same bloody gaffe again. 3.5--4.0. A mere 3-4 years after 3.0--3.5. If they don't repeat the same mistake for a third time, it'll be because they're bankrupt and Hasbro has sold the brand to someone else!
Just read the latest info on ENWorld and, as usual, their summary of the various blog posts by the 4e designers is more informative and interesting than the articles posted on the WotC website.Which means it's just a matter of time until WotC buys ENWorld and shuts it down to preserve the information monopoly.
Morrus might sell ENWorld for the right price...but then he could just launch a whole new site and do the same thing. At least, I know that's what many of us 3rd party publishers would encourage him to do. ;)
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Check out the Desert of Desolation thread (scroll down) for a link to the latest preview which shows the 4E version of the Osyluth (still a devil).
Wow. I can't say I've read all five pages of posts (just the first and last really...) but from what I'm reading here the overwhelming impression is that White Wolf trashed their World of Darkness to make a setting more like Dungeons & Dragons and D&D trashed their setting to make it more like the World of Darkness.
It's interesting. Special power trees are right out of Exalted (well actually from Diablo II, but that's just the pedigree of plagarism). The deathly plane is just like the Shadowlands from WoD. The planes are just like the umbra. The primordials? Exalted. The Hells as a realm where devils are locked away in a strict heirarchy striving to escape into the mortal realm? The Yozi. The Abyss as a seething hole rotting away at reality full of kill crazy demon monsters? The Wyrm. It's really interesting. All we need now are for the races to be replaced with Mage, Fairy, Vampire, Werewolf, Ghost and Mummy and we'll be good to go!
I am very glad that Paizo gets to go its own way on the "story" aspect of our products (even if we do convert to 4.0), and we no longer must follow Wizards of the Coast lock, stock, and barrel. I have a great deal of trust in Wizards of the Coast's mechanical abilities. Not so much on the story side of things.
I am looking forward to the "story" aspects of Paizo's products!
The "re-imagining" of the cosmology as presented by WoTC does not seem to be needed to enhance the D&D game. I hope that the rules' presentations for their new Core Rulebooks are sufficiently entertaining to keep D&D a successful game for the future.
But if not, I'm sure glad there's going to be plenty of Paizo products to keep me entertained!
Okay here's the thing. Demons are fine. Granted I would imagine with them being some world eating cancer of the multiverse, that they should feel a bit more like alien Lovecraftian Far Realm awfulness than anything they're likely to become. Frankly I would love them to just be sick and nasty in ways that make my skin crawl, but I think the designers are probably just going to backpeddle and make demons be pretty much what demons have always been, which seems a shame with the fresh cosmology and all, but hey at least I like the demons the way they are so not as big a deal.
No my problem really is with devils. You basically have this plane--the only one ever--where the celestials decided to kill their god. Now you'd think that with evil gods at least, you'd see quite a bit of this, wouldn't you? But fine, they're the only ones to ever do this and they get cursed and bound to the Hells. So how would anyone on the Prime Material planes ever find out about them? There's only the one plane among what, thousands? Not only that but the inhabitants of the plane can't leave. So how do infernalists ever discover them?
Oh and how could you ever summon one? I mean presumably a god bound them to their plane, right? And Summon Monster Level I is going to do what? Outdo a dying god's curse? Whatever. So you get this devil and pact with him. What good does that do the devils? Mortal power? Souls? It seems like mostly they just want out of Hell. I'd imagine a devil once summoned would laugh his butt off and split as soon as he could, or else might try to get other summoners to bust out more of his brethren.
I certainly don't see this turning into diabolical manipulators signing blood pacts for souls. It just seems like the idea falls apart more the more you look at it. Bleah.
Or KFC and chips.Ugh! KFC! Why would you put that garbage in your mouth? Popeyes is way better.
I agree spinach is good. Especially with a nice balsamic vinaigrette, a bit of crumbled bacon and sliced egg.
No my problem really is with devils. You basically have this plane--the only one ever--where the celestials decided to kill their god. Now you'd think that with evil gods at least, you'd see quite a bit of this, wouldn't you? But fine, they're the only ones to ever do this and they get cursed and bound to the Hells.
<snip>Oh and how could you ever summon one? I mean presumably a god bound them to their plane, right? And Summon Monster Level I is going to do what? Outdo a dying god's curse? Whatever.
Apparently the reason they over threw their god was the fact that it wasn't quite as powerful as a 16 year old magic user.
"I'm a god blah blah blah. Look I can make candles that burn for hours! Blah blah blah. I am soooo powerful. You go get me a sandwich!" I mean I would kill that punk too.