Two questions.
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XAB
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Scenario 1: PC A stands between PC B and opponent X. They are in a 5' wide hallway. Can PC B move through PC A's square to grapple opponent X? If he is successful, he would move into the opponent's square. But if unsuccessful, he would be displaced into PC A's square, which doesn't work. My player's argue he could do it. I say no. What do YOU guys think.
Scenario 2: Same people. Same position. Can PC B move through PC A's square to perform a Bull Rush on X? Again, I argue no,they say yes.
Thoughts?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Scenario 1: PC A stands between PC B and opponent X. They are in a 5' wide hallway. Can PC B move through PC A's square to grapple opponent X? If he is successful, he would move into the opponent's square. But if unsuccessful, he would be displaced into PC A's square, which doesn't work. My player's argue he could do it. I say no. What do YOU guys think.
Scenario 2: Same people. Same position. Can PC B move through PC A's square to perform a Bull Rush on X? Again, I argue no,they say yes.
Thoughts?
1: Grapple? No. The character does not move into the target's square until the second round of a grapple. Since character B cannot occupy character A's square, he cannot initate the grapple from that square.
2: Bull rush? Yes. However, character B would not gain the bonus from charging (since you cannot charge through occupied squares). If the Bull Rush fails, see the SRD:
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.
(Emphasis mine.)
Two questions.
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XAB
-----Scenario 1: PC A stands between PC B and opponent X. They are in a 5' wide hallway. Can PC B move through PC A's square to grapple opponent X? If he is successful, he would move into the opponent's square. But if unsuccessful, he would be displaced into PC A's square, which doesn't work. My player's argue he could do it. I say no. What do YOU guys think.
In my opinion yes, as long as PC A is not in melee combat with opponent X. If PC A is not in combat with opponent X, then I say PC B can go in and initiate a grapple. According to Fatespinner PC B has to wait until the next round to move in and grapple. Fatespinner is probably right, he knows his stuff. But, I'm not waiting two rounds to grapple. That's how our gaming group rolls.
Scenario 2: Same people. Same position. Can PC B move through PC A's square to perform a Bull Rush on X? Again, I argue no,they say yes.Thoughts?
I think yes, also, on scenerio two. Again, if PC A is in melee combat with opponent X, then PC B could not move through the same square occuppied by PC A. Yep, no charge bonus, you need an unobstructed approach to opponent X to charge.
Could PC B tumble pass PC A and then initiate a grapple with opponent X, if PC A were in combat with opponent X?
I'm not sure about the two rounds thing in the grapple, I'll get back to that, but nonetheless I feel Fatespinner is correct.
A players turn is broken up into smaller segments involving move actions and standard actions etc. For PC B to try and grapple he would have to move or take a 5' step forward, end that action begin another, in this case a standard or full round action to grapple. The catch is you can't end an action in some one else's square. You can't take a 5 foot step into your buddies square nor may you end a move action in your buddies square - the grappling part never enters the picture - it does not matter what the player wants to do afterward, they can't be in their friends square.
Bullrush is an exception because to do a bull rush you actually physically move into your opponents square as your action and then the rules for bullrushing commence.
OK back to grappling - whether grappling individuals are in the same space at the end of a grapple is a tad confusing. It says that you must move into your opponents square to maintain a grapple in later rounds but does not really say exactly when it is you move into your opponents square. I would think that this occurs actually during step 4 of the grapple process but Fatespinner feels it takes place at some point later - presumably at the start of the grapplers next turn. In truth I figure either interpretation is fine as long as one is consistent.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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In truth I figure either interpretation is fine as long as one is consistent.
Jeremy, you are correct. The wording from the SRD is a little bit vague on exactly when this movement happens. Here are the grapple rules as written in the SRD (spoilered to avoid obnoxious scrolling):
Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.
In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.
Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.
In your scenario, I would still rule that the grapple couldn't happen, and here's why: Regardless of when the 'special movement' occurs (whether it be after the grapple attempt in the same round or at the beginning of the following round), B cannot occupy A's square to deliver the touch attack from. Characters can move through friendly squares, but they cannot occupy them in order to take actions from. Think about it: what if the grapple check fails? Does B get shunted back to his original square (awkwardly)? Does he fall prone in A's square? It seems that, by forbidding the action, you save yourself some logistical headaches. Still, your mileage may vary.
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My take would be that you can't initiate a combat action while occupying the space of another combatant, even if that combatant is an ally. The initial touch attack would have to take place in the ally's square, and you can't do that anymore than you could (or would expect to be able to) swing a sword.
I'm not sure about the two rounds thing in the grapple, I'll get back to that, but nonetheless I feel Fatespinner is correct.
I'm pretty sure Fatespinner is right. Our gaming group had a discussion about this way back. We decided you can move into an opponents square and initiate a grapple in the same round. The fact that you move through a threatened square is why a grapple provokes an attack of opportunity in our view.
A players turn is broken up into smaller segments involving move actions and standard actions etc. For PC B to try and grapple he would have to move or take a 5' step forward, end that action begin another, in this case a standard or full round action to grapple. The catch is you can't end an action in some one else's square. You can't take a 5 foot step into your buddies square nor may you end a move action in your buddies square - the grappling part never enters the picture - it does not matter what the player wants to do afterward, they can't be in their friends square.Bullrush is an exception because to do a bull rush you actually physically move into your opponents square as your action and then the rules for bullrushing commence.
OK back to grappling - whether grappling individuals are in the same space at the end of a grapple is a tad confusing. It says that you must move into your opponents square to maintain a grapple in later rounds but does not really say exactly when it is you move into your opponents square. I would think that this occurs actually during step 4 of the grapple process but Fatespinner feels it takes place at some point later - presumably at the start of the grapplers next turn. In truth I figure either interpretation is fine as long as one is consistent.
Again in our gaming group, to initiate a grapple you need to be in your opponents square, if you ever wrestled it's up close and personal. So in our interpretation, as long as PC A is not in melee combat you can move through his square and initiate a grapple. For us it works the same for a bullrush. Im not sure if this is actually in the rules, but in our group, your movement has to end in your oppenents square if you initiate a grapple or bullrush. In other words if you have a movement of 30' then opponent x could not be more than 30' from PC B, in order for PC B to initiate a grapple or bull rush.
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.(Emphasis mine.)
I would rather push everyone back one square, leaving the grappler standing in front of his opponent.
Of course both falling prone under an ally and everyone getting pushed back a square could happen in the same game and in the same fight.I'm a capricious DM like that.
According to the rules, for player B to get to opponent X, he can freely pass his ally to get to the opponent, at which point the opponent gets an AOO. If the AOO hits, the grapple fails. In the case of the failure of the grapple, the DM must adjudicate whether Player A or Player B is displaced back to Player B's starting position, since you cannot end your movement in the same square as another creature that is not at least three size categories larger than your character.
According to the rules, for player B to get to opponent X, he can freely pass his ally to get to the opponent, at which point the opponent gets an AOO. If the AOO hits, the grapple fails. In the case of the failure of the grapple, the DM must adjudicate whether Player A or Player B is displaced back to Player B's starting position, since you cannot end your movement in the same square as another creature that is not at least three size categories larger than your character.
Within the rules player B may pass player A but he cannot actually be in players A's space.
He can't get within reach to actually start the grapple. Breaking player B's turn up into its component parts make that clear.
He starts his turn and he would like to grapple - he must be beside his opponent to initiate the touch attack that starts a grapple. So how does he get beside the bad guy? Well he has two options he can take a 5' step or he can take a move action.
Neither works, a look at the rules will show that you may not end your 5' step in some one else's square unless you or they are two size categories larger then you. Same deal with the move action - can't end your move action in another players square. Its not possible for the player - by the rules, to get into range to actually roll the dice to even see if he hit.
If your not allowed to roll to hit your not going to successfully start a grapple.