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I was wondering what type of leveling system would be best for RotRL and indeed Pathfinder in general?
My personal preference as a DM is to use training rules for leveling but would it be better for the fluidity of the game to handle leveling instantaneously (or after a night of rest)?
Thoughts?
Note: If your interested, my house rule requires characters to train with a master (or at a training college) for a Period of 1 week every time they gain a feat from their character level (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, etc)
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I was wondering what type of leveling system would be best for RotRL and indeed Pathfinder in general?
My personal preference as a DM is to use training rules for leveling but would it be better for the fluidity of the game to handle leveling instantaneously (or after a night of rest)?
Thoughts?
Note: If your interested, my house rule requires characters to train with a master (or at a training college) for a Period of 1 week every time they gain a feat from their character level (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, etc)
My experience with most Paizo adventures is that if you don't have them level as they earn it, they're going to get smushed. The difficulty ramps up pretty quickly in dungeons which are rather far from town. And time is usually of the essence (take a look at Crown of the Kobold King in particular for that)
Why do I dislike levelling up mid-adventure so much? It's not "unrealistic" to have people in grim situations to really reach down into themselves and find reserves of skill they never realized they had. That aspect is fine. Maybe it just reminds me of video games? Dunno.
I've been wondering about this myself. It's been a long time since I ran a campaign (this will be my first one since 2nd edition) and I've been trying to decide how to handle this. I'd ideally like to allow leveling in a class that the player already has a level in instantaneously, but require at least some training to multi-class in a new class for the first time, just because it makes sense to me that way. I'm just afraid that if I do that I'm going to quash the player's creativity with their character concepts somewhat by making them not want to multi-class at all...
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I was wondering what type of leveling system would be best for RotRL and indeed Pathfinder in general?
My personal preference as a DM is to use training rules for leveling but would it be better for the fluidity of the game to handle leveling instantaneously (or after a night of rest)?
Thoughts?
Note: If your interested, my house rule requires characters to train with a master (or at a training college) for a Period of 1 week every time they gain a feat from their character level (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, etc)
I generally have the same problem. I don't like "spontaneous leveling", yet they sometimes seem called for. Fortunately my party keeps running up from "The Whispering Cairn" just about every adventure so I was able to work it in. "You take a few days to practice some skills you've been working on before returning to the cairn."
One option a friend and I were working on was a fee when you returned to town. Say your level times 10gp (number hasn't been settled on yet). This covers your equipment repairs, room and board, and training. It would require that you give the party a few days/weeks/months downtime in town now and again. Now depending on the time-frame, one might change how much money should be spent. Perhaps something like 10 x level per week in town? Therefore you train all along. So when you level during a dungeon, its the "I finally pulled off that move I've been working on for a month!"
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Generally I believe all the training was done before the adventure started, but with a lot of character concepts the first level of the class can't really get it out. So a mobility type martial person wouldn't need training of any sort to start mixing fighter, swashbuckler, rogue, ranger.
I might require it for prep-casters though, but that's never come up.
What about someone who multi-classes to wizard? Does she suddenly reveal that she's been toting a spellbook around in her backpack all this time? :)
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What about someone who multi-classes to wizard? Does she suddenly reveal that she's been toting a spellbook around in her backpack all this time? :)
This happened in one of our campaigns. We roleplayed it out, and it became a ton of fun since we had the party wizard teaching the new rogue/wizard. As a matter of fact the wizard gave the rogue one of his old spell-books. But multi-classing is generally something you know before you actually level. Very few times do you see someone taking a big jump like that without some prior thought/discussion. I generally decide my progression early. Perhaps not the whole thing, but a "hrm, perhaps I'll add in a level of ___." several sessions before level. So as soon as the player decides, they should reveal this and start carring the spellbook, practicing along the trip.
Or you can do just as you said above. Who's to say that they weren't? It's something they were doing in secret. Sounds feasible to me (even if it wasn't true). Can even add to the story. Perhaps a relative of the character was a caster and they inherited this book. They finally were able to figure some of it out after practicing on and off for years. Perhaps its a book from some enemy they've been toting around and studding at night. Perhaps when they were supposed to be on watch, adding a whole new role-playing opportunity.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If you were playing in one of my campaigns, you would declare, upon reaching a level, what your character's goals are for the next level.
When your character earns enough experience points to level again, if she levels in (a) one of her current classes, (b) her racially favored class, or (c) the class you declared was her goal, she'll gain power the next time she rests (the same as would allow a wizard to regain spells). If you've decided that your character going to shift to something else, she'll need to spend some time (perhaps a day) in town with a mentor (fees variable; prestige class teachers may be tougher to find than fighters).
If you were playing in one of my campaigns, you would declare, upon reaching a level, what your character's goals are for the next level.
When your character earns enough experience points to level again, if she levels in (a) one of her current classes, (b) her racially favored class, or (c) the class you declared was her goal, she'll gain power the next time she rests (the same as would allow a wizard to regain spells). If you've decided that your character going to shift to something else, she'll need to spend some time (perhaps a day) in town with a mentor (fees variable; prestige class teachers may be tougher to find than fighters).
This sounds like a not unreasonable way to do things, the racially-favored class bit makes sense. I think I may adopt this, though I do think that I'm going to make prestige classes a bit more difficult,probably requiring a short side-quest sort of thing, if we ever get that far...
If you were playing in one of my campaigns, you would declare, upon reaching a level, what your character's goals are for the next level.
This is very similar to a plan I'm putting together to address this same issue.
I've found my players get a little disgruntled when they have to delay the rewards of playing. Not only do they hate going through huge battles or the like but having to wait for the xp, but it just doesn't make sense that a few days can pass before they go "oh...I get it!"
The solution to that was to calculate XP for the different encounters and hand them out at the conclusion of each battle. When they get enough to level - BAM! - they level up.
Where Chris' approach comes in is that, to speed things up, I have them have their character's next level character sheet handy with all the new skill points, feats, and spells chosen. The added benefit is, like Chris, they have to have these sheets ready for the next level when they gain the current one.
In effect, that means that this character has spent an entire level learning the skills or studying the spells he's planning on picking up next level. That's good enough for me and easy justfication if a rogue suddenly decides to take a wizard level and avoids a fighter suddenly having weapon expertise in a strange new exotic weapon they just discovered in some ancient ruins.
Creative Director
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Although the way you have your PCs level up is up to you, of course... Pathfinder assumes that you hand out XP at the end of every game session (and perhaps also at the end of every adventure), and that whenever a PC hits enough XP to level up, he levels up right then and there. Each adventure is for a band of levels, after all, and we're taking pains to keep each adventure relatively "off the rails" so that the sections can be tackled in whatever order the PCs want (even if the order in which they're presented in the adventure implies rails, and it certainly is set up in order of increasing difficulty, the choice is often up to the PCs).
If you use training or enforce down time between levels, you really should keep in mind the fact that by the 2nd third of a Pathfinder adventure, we expect the PCs have gained a level, and by the final third they've gained another one. Otherwise, things'll get too rough too fast.
In my 25 or so years of experience playing the game, training makes players sad. Being able to level up at once makes them happy. ERGO: Training = not fun, instant levels = fun. Games are supposed to be fun, therefore the game should have instant leveling. If that doesn't seem realistic... well, to me it doesn't seem realistic that spending days adventuring and using your skills isn't how you learn to be better, but training in some static environment where there's no danger does? That sounds backward.
Seriously, though, I also hand out XP at the end of the session (unless I know they're just about to level up). I've never had to worry about someone taking a skill, feat, or a different class that comes out of left field. I try to encourage players that have a concept and stick to that. I assume any non encounter-relevant abilities that are picked for advancement are just doing all of that in the downtime. Even asking about it every time they rest is time taken away from the story.
I'd suggest for those groups where players are demanding their DM's to make them train, that perhaps only the first encounter with finding a teacher should be roleplayed, or when any training actually involves the story (the rival dojo challenges your sensei, so she chooses you to represent them in a battle for territory and honor). Otherwise I'd just tell them to deduct the gold and fast forward to the adventure.
I'm reminded of Ultima Online where a roommate would actually spend hours "fishing" to get enough gold pieces to buy his first weapon, which was a dagger. I thought it seemed silly, but he really enjoyed it. So, whatever makes everyone have maximum fun in their game should be the priority.
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Games are supposed to be fun, therefore the game should have instant leveling. If that doesn't seem realistic... well, to me it doesn't seem realistic that spending days adventuring and using your skills isn't how you learn to be better, but training in some static environment where there's no danger does? That sounds backward.
That's my normal GM'ing style. With few exceptions, multi-classing and some feats, it's understood the players are honing those skills and abilities as they progress, without training. A fighter constantly swinging his sword will eventually get stronger. Why does he need more training?
Usually when people want a level in a new class I require that they get training, but I stat our their trainer and usually make them into a resource. Plus if it's appropriate I give them some sort of "graduation" present. This means that a) the players feel like I'm giving them something for free, and b) I have a new source of plot hooks. :D
I think training in more logical, especially when dealing with multi-classing, but allowing instant levels is easier. I normaly go with easy over logical.
In retrospect, maybe my problem isn't with instant levelling as it is so much with the pace of advancement. Two levels in one adventure is just WAY too fast; it takes a couple adventures for people to get a handle on their new abilities. I dislike it when I get a cool new attack spell, for example, and don't even get a chance to use it before I've levelled up to the point where it's no longer effective. This pace of advancement severly interferes with my ability to get into character, to grow to love and appreciate the character, etc. Yes, advancement is fun, but it's less fun than game play or we'd just sit around making high-level NPC stat blocks all day.
I'm not necessarily advocating a 1st ed. system, or, worse, Victory Games' character advancement (which practically occurred over geologic time scales). But can't there be a happy medium? So here's my request: PLEASE insert "breaking points" in the adventures. That way we can use 1/2 xp awards to slow the breakneck pace of advancement. We could run half of an adventure, level up, and then maybe run 1-2 other adventures before coming back and finishing it, having gained that last level by that point. This way, people who just want to level can play as written and level up as fast as they "clear boards." Those of us who like to get to know our characters a little can level up at half the pace and insert a number of side quests, etc.
I think the Wilderlands from Judges Guild/Necromancer games had an alternate XP chart for leveling up. I remember 2nd level wasn't reached until 2000 xp, but I liked it a lot more than the btb chart, it did give you time to develope your character.
I think the Wilderlands from Judges Guild/Necromancer games had an alternate XP chart for leveling up. I remember 2nd level wasn't reached until 2000 xp, but I liked it a lot more than the btb chart, it did give you time to develope your character.
Another system I've had great success with is outlined here (scroll down for discussion and comments)
If you plan on charging a "training fee" to level up with mentors in town, keep in mind the effect that this has on the party finances and the assumed wealth per level tables in the DMG.
Are current campaign is using a houserule like this, and it takes a week plus (100gp X your new level) to level up.
At the lower levels, that extra 200 GP to hit 2nd or 300 GP to hit 3rd is a big drain on the pocket books of the PCs. We had to decide whether or not to sell a magic weapon so that the whole party had enough cash to level up.
In hindsight, the DM should probably have added a bit more treasure to balance this out. As it was, I'm sure we are only around 75% of the reccomended wealth... unless the rogue and wizard are shortchanging my cleric when they appraise and identify loot ;-)
I usually have the PCs train during down-time. We do not spend a lot of time on that, but it is a background thing. Whenever the PCs have some off-time, they do some training.
Remember that we're playing a FANTASY game. I agree 100% with what James said. I hand out experience after each session. In a play by post campaign I hand it out after every encounter. Training is boring and what better training are you going to receive than in a dungeon itself? Players want to have fun and obtaining a new level with new powers and skills is fun.
The challenge will be to role-play that power increase as both a DM and a player. After all you're both telling a story. So explain it away. Life is too short and there are too many adventures to go on and levels to be had without having to worry about going into town and logging in hours hitting a practice dummy while some gruff taskmaster yells harder and faster. Sheesh