|
(Which is why my words for 'ninja' and 'samurai' are 'rogue' and 'fighter'.)
Yours, too?
Of course, the fighter needs a little help in that department (the rogue is fine). To that end, I've house ruled fighter to get 4 +Int skill points per level and changed their skill list to: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
This way, the fighter can fill the role of knight, samurai, swashbuckler, or whatever. Y'know, the way it should be.
|
|
(Which is why my words for 'ninja' and 'samurai' are 'rogue' and 'fighter'.)Yours, too?
Of course, the fighter needs a little help in that department (the rogue is fine). To that end, I've house ruled fighter to get 4 +Int skill points per level and changed their skill list to: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
This way, the fighter can fill the role of knight, samurai, swashbuckler, or whatever. Y'know, the way it should be.
Or pirate! Arr!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
(Which is why my words for 'ninja' and 'samurai' are 'rogue' and 'fighter'.)Yours, too?
Of course, the fighter needs a little help in that department (the rogue is fine). To that end, I've house ruled fighter to get 4 +Int skill points per level and changed their skill list to: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
This way, the fighter can fill the role of knight, samurai, swashbuckler, or whatever. Y'know, the way it should be.
YES.
It's always been my opinion that Fighters get screwed in the skills category. They COULD at least get more class skills...
Then perhaps we had a misunderstanding of eachothers intentions.
I agree; that seems to be the case. Language is sometimes inexact, as we're learning from this thread!
Well said Isuru, I must have met the same sort of historical sticklers you have, as that sounded oh so familiar.
If you aren't interested in the language in fantasy issue then you'd er... better skip the rest of this post, because I got a bit carried away! If you are intersted then great, because I''ve thought about it a bit and I'd really like to hear what other people think about this issue.
And don't get me started on fantasy writers who interchange between fantasy words and English against all logic. Like this:
"He broke a piece off the ektara, then put the remainder in his pouch underneath his khutaan, the long cloak that all the desert tribesmen wore." If ektara means "flat bread" and khutaan means "long cloak" then why the hell isn't any of the rest of the guy's clothing and equipment written in Desert Tribesman Language? It's all culturally unique as well, with presumably it's own names in the relevant tongue.
The reason writers do things like this is to create a mood of the exotic, because that's what fantasy is; it's like going on a holiday to a place that's still Earth basically, but different. It's a balancing act. Too much accuracy and it isn't fantasy, it's historical fiction, and too little and it's incomprehensible. Imagine if the above writer had for realism's (fantasy's?) sake written his entire novel in authentic Fantasy Desert Tribesman Language. It would be like Tolkein writing The Silmarillion entirely in Quenya or whatever, which I read somewhere is what he originally wanted to do! There's no easy answer to the question of language authenticity in fantasy, which I think is why people tend to quietly ignore it...
(Which is why my words for 'ninja' and 'samurai' are 'rogue' and 'fighter'.)Yours, too?
Of course, the fighter needs a little help in that department (the rogue is fine). To that end, I've house ruled fighter to get 4 +Int skill points per level and changed their skill list to: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
This way, the fighter can fill the role of knight, samurai, swashbuckler, or whatever. Y'know, the way it should be.
YES.
It's always been my opinion that Fighters get screwed in the skills category. They COULD at least get more class skills...
I agree, which is why I homebrew a new skill list for fighters...
Then perhaps we had a misunderstanding of eachothers intentions.I agree; that seems to be the case. Language is sometimes inexact, as we're learning from this thread!
English is really hard too... it is a very illogical and confusing language... I find German to be most logical, but even it can be confusing...
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
I agree, which is why I homebrew a new skill list for fighters...(Which is why my words for 'ninja' and 'samurai' are 'rogue' and 'fighter'.)Yours, too?
Of course, the fighter needs a little help in that department (the rogue is fine). To that end, I've house ruled fighter to get 4 +Int skill points per level and changed their skill list to: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
This way, the fighter can fill the role of knight, samurai, swashbuckler, or whatever. Y'know, the way it should be.
YES.
It's always been my opinion that Fighters get screwed in the skills category. They COULD at least get more class skills...
I really hope that someone starts up another arguement about languages, because I'm about to go off on a tangent about katanas and wakazashis in D&D.
Well said Isuru, I must have met the same sort of historical sticklers you have, as that sounded oh so familiar.
If you aren't interested in the language in fantasy issue then you'd er... better skip the rest of this post, because I got a bit carried away! If you are intersted then great, because I''ve thought about it a bit and I'd really like to hear what other people think about this issue.
[SPOILER]As a fantasy fan and a person who's studied linguistics the issue of languages in fantasy fascinates me. Most people have heard the old Greek Fire vs. Alchemist's Fire thing, but if you think about it EVERYTHING in fantasy is inherently a contradiction in this sense. Obviously it's silly to name something in a fantasy world "Greek Fire" when Greece is a nation of Earth, but by the same token alchemists are a product of a specific earth cultural tradition. The word "alchemist" is of arabic etymology I'm pretty sure. How could that word exist if there was no Arabia? To whom does it refer? Or are we imagining that the chracters are using a totally different word and "Alchemist" is our translation of it? If that's the case then what's wrong with using "Greek Fire?" That is what the substance is called in English after all.
And don't get me started on fantasy writers who interchange between fantasy words and English against all logic. Like this:
"He broke a piece off the ektara, then put the remainder in his pouch underneath his khutaan, the long cloak that all the desert tribesmen wore." If ektara means "flat bread" and khutaan means "long cloak" then why the hell isn't any of the rest of the guy's clothing and equipment written in Desert Tribesman Language? It's all culturally unique as well, with presumably it's own names in the relevant tongue.
The reason writers do things like this is to create a mood of the exotic, because that's what fantasy is; it's like going on a holiday to a place that's still Earth basically, but different. It's a balancing act. Too...
Yes, no easy answer, but I think that names are different. If you want it to sound Chinese, use Chinese names... but calling a sword d?o (EDIT: dao, this does not allow tonal marks on here) to sound chinese is silly, just call it sword! Town names, places, and names add enough flavor while not limiting creativity
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
English is really hard too... it is a very illogical and confusing language... I find German to be most logical, but even it can be confusing...Then perhaps we had a misunderstanding of eachothers intentions.I agree; that seems to be the case. Language is sometimes inexact, as we're learning from this thread!
There's a reason why, according to the American Military, English is the sole Class Five language.
I really hope that someone starts up another arguement about languages, because I'm about to go off on a tangent about katanas and wakazashis in D&D.I agree, which is why I homebrew a new skill list for fighters...(Which is why my words for 'ninja' and 'samurai' are 'rogue' and 'fighter'.)Yours, too?
Of course, the fighter needs a little help in that department (the rogue is fine). To that end, I've house ruled fighter to get 4 +Int skill points per level and changed their skill list to: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
This way, the fighter can fill the role of knight, samurai, swashbuckler, or whatever. Y'know, the way it should be.
YES.
It's always been my opinion that Fighters get screwed in the skills category. They COULD at least get more class skills...
Please tell, I will listen :)
There's a reason why, according to the American Military, English is the sole Class Five language.English is really hard too... it is a very illogical and confusing language... I find German to be most logical, but even it can be confusing...Then perhaps we had a misunderstanding of eachothers intentions.I agree; that seems to be the case. Language is sometimes inexact, as we're learning from this thread!
I don't understand, what is class five language? Does this mean it is the most difficult? If so I agree!
I really hope that someone starts up another arguement about languages, because I'm about to go off on a tangent about katanas and wakazashis in D&D.
Remember back when katanas did 1d12 and wakizashis did 1d8, simply because they were forged with super-secret Japan power? That was beofre everyone realized that they were just bastard swords and short swords respectively, and weren't all masterwork Hattori Hanzo death-blades.
I really hope that someone starts up another arguement about languages, because I'm about to go off on a tangent about katanas and wakazashis in D&D.Remember back when katanas did 1d12 and wakizashis did 1d8, simply because they were forged with super-secret Japan power? That was beofre everyone realized that they were just bastard swords and short swords respectively, and weren't all masterwork Hattori Hanzo death-blades.
Yes, I never understood why weapons that are similar or equivalent to wester weapons needed to be listed... A chinese Spear is not used like a western spear, but they do the same damage! It is up to player to create a feel for his or her character! Just like Chinese Bamboo Leaf Sword is effectively the same as short sword, so a good warrior would use two weapon fighting and his Short sword would be both slashing and piercing... This is for player to create! That is most of the fun!
Wa! Rang wo da chi yi jing! Chule wo he Nick Logue yiwai, zheige wangzhan shang hai you biede hui shuo Zhongwen de ren! Erqie, you ren zai jiao Zhongguoren zenme war D&D! Wo mei yudao hen duo dui zheizhong youxi gan xingqu de Zhongguoren!
Well, this thread went haywire while I was off the boards today.
One point I would like to make, which has been hinted at in earlier posts, is that Asian cultures like China and Japan are contributing to a larger "World Culture" of fantasy that in turn influences the imaginings of those who invent and play D&D and other FRPGs. The primary medium for this influence, I think, is film--but historical novels, tourism, college courses, the spread of Buddhism, the practice of Asian martial arts, and many other things also influence our imaginings of Asian culture. The thing is, most of us don't have any direct experience of Asia except through these influences, so we get a hodgepodge of elements that were, for some reason, attractive and/or effectively marketed to "westerners," and think of that hodgepodge as "Asian" (or if we're a bit more sophisticated, attached to one particular culture in Asia). The result is something that is not authentically Asian, or authentically belonging to a specific Asian culture. This is because we glom onto things in Asian cultures that are not always central to those cultures, but they capture our imaginations for some reason. And also because we're exposed to only bits and pieces of what is a rich and varied cultural world. So there are a mixture of Asian elements in "World Culture" (things like ninjas and pseudo-Japanese names and interpretations of the Daoist classics influenced by Christian theology) that shape our images of Asia, but when we share these strangely distorted reflections with people from Asian cultures, they seem nonsensical, wrong, or at best amusing--and they certainly lack "authenticity" from Chinese or Japanese people's point of view.
This situation is complicated by the fact that Europeans and Americans have a long tradition of building fantasies out of reports about Asia. Asia is a very plausible place to build a fantasy world for Westerners because we know enough about it to stimulate our imagination, but not enough that reality will intervene and destroy the fantasy's verisimilitude. However, for those of us who are from Asia, or who have spent many years studying one or another Asian culture, the verisimilitude breaks down. That is why Takamori and Lex Talinis and I all feel a bit uncomfortable with pseudo-Asian names in fantasy. They are meant to give an Asian flavor, and they do for most readers, but we know what Asia really tastes like (or we think we do), and this just doesn't taste the same.
That said, I accept that the pseudo-Japanese names only disrupt verisimilitude for a small minority of readers/players, and it may be lots of effort for little payoff to fix such a minor issue. I respect the staff for trying, though. And if you need a little linguistic consulting when it's time to develop Tianxia, let me know. That Logue fellow doesn't know anything ;)
BTW, one further note about the term Tianxia. If you are the emperor of Tianxia, you literally are claiming to rule "all under Heaven"--the entire world. Yeah, there may be some barbarians out on the fringes of the known world who don't realize yet that you are Heaven's direct representative on earth, and that civilization and morality and everything good emanate from the emperor (the Tianzi or Son of Heaven). So there is a certain claim to being universal world ruler implicit in the term Tianxia.
OK. That's enough blather for one night. Hope this helps to advance the discussion and doesn't come off as pedantry. To the Paizo staff--initial look at the first Pathfinder PDF gives a good impression. Jia you! (Literal translation: "Step on the gas!" In this context, meaning, keep up the good work!)
It's really nice to see everyone happy on this thread again. By the way Lex, where are you? (I am posting from Shandong province in the PR or China.)
It's really nice to see everyone happy on this thread again. By the way Lex, where are you? (I am posting from Shandong province in the PR or China.)
I live in San Diego. My family came here when I was a boy, so my Sister and I could go to American University. I finished and decided to stay so I could be close to my family. I grew up near Nanjing, it is close to you. I visit often. Are you there for study or holiday?
I don't know if your fiancee is really Japanese or if she's Hawaiian with a Japanese name, but if she's the first, you might ask her what she thinks of the names.
She is not the least bit offended by the names. Neither are any of my Japanese friends (American-Japanese and Japanese born) and I have several.
Now you open another whole floodgate of problematic with the question is my wife "really Japanese," that's potentially very offensive. What do you mean by this? She is half-japanese ethnically. As to what it means to be Japanese, that is a whole other can of worms my friend. I'd be careful where you level loaded phraseology such as "really Japanese."
Are you really Japanese? Or are you potentially an oversensitive gaijin who sees offenses where none exist (I'm not saying you are this, but I've met a lot of people who fit this bill, and they always get their kimonos in a twist about topics like the one you have brought up).
I'm sorry if I sound rough here, but this really riles me up. Why can we inject fantasy into Europe and NO ONE takes offense, but when ever we decide go Asian with our fantasy-adventure, "scholars" get all "that's not accurate" about it, while I've never heard complaints from any Japanese people at all. It's political correctness run amok, and to me is a worse form of discrimination (you can't have fantasy Asia! That's would be wrong, you have to be historically accurate even in wild-unreality land of D&D where magic runs rampant). It's not supposed to be accurate, it's make-believe, that's the fun of it.
Minkai is indeed a fantasy world. I think it might be seen as a graver insult by some Japanese people to slavishly proscribe real Japanese names to a world that is not Japan. I favor a good mix of both sometimes, just like I do in anything I write for non-Asian D&D. "Viktor Saint-Demain" and "Thaddius Tannenbaum III" real world names..."Thuldrin Kreed" and "Savaros Vade" not so much. I don't think we need to get picky about naming conventions really, the camp and bizarre mix is part of the fun of D&D.
No one thinks Tyban or Jurandros "sound like" European names, they just think they sound like cool names. Why not plumb the depths of cool sounds made by Asian languages too in our search for fun names (especially when dealing with a fantasy region which takes other nods from Asia).
Just my two cents, and again, apologies in advance if I seem out-of-sorts about this. It's obvious you are an extremely intelligent and compassionate human being Takamori, we just disagree on this point, and I feel very strongly about it. Good gaming to you and yours.
Nick
In Takamori's defense, I must admit that a lot of D&D material that is supposed to have an "Asian" flavor rather grates on my nerves as well, for some of the same reasons. Both the Five Rings stuff and Kara-Tur seem to have this effect on me. I recognize that this is the purist, Orientalist strain in me, though--and every time I contemplate running a campaign in some sort of mythic China, I realize how difficult it is for a foreigner, even one who has made a life of studying the culture, to achieve a high level of authenticity in recreating that culture through fiction, let alone do so while incorporating fantasy elements.
Peruhain!
I totally think you should not go for authenticity, but rather fantasy. Imagine the "culture" of D&D (magic pushed to wild limits, strange beasts surpassing understanding) is injected into "authentic" Asia. You get something wildly different than real-world (or even mytholgical) China and Japan. I bring this up because I am working on some projects like this, and it is both liberating and incredibly interesting to imagine Asia not as Asia-that-I-read-about-and-studied, but rather as Asia-that-I-read-about-and-studied-on-D&D-CRACK!!!. Try it, it's fun. Monk styles based on Displacer Beasts and Basilisks. Mudra Magic employed to deadly effect by both Imperial Assassins and Ninja! A wild place that takes "real world Asian mythos" as a starting point, not as a goal.
Just my two cents though. Oh, and to be totally contrary with my earlier post to Takamori, I actually do use real Chinese syllables in all my naming conventions for Tianxia-like stuff...so poop on me I guess. :-)
I think the ruler of Tianxia considers him or herself "ruler of everything under heaven"...I can't wait to see what Cheliax thinks about that. ;-)
Now as I do not speak Japanese, I do speak Chinese. And like Japanese name, Chinese names all have deep rooted meaning. To just "make up" a Chinese name would serve nothing but to make the Chinese shake their head and call you crazy laowai. It also shows ignorance and disrespect to the culture. Now The Japanese have relaxed a little but the Chinese are still highly motivated by honor and are easily insulted by things Americans find trivial. It is also part of what gives Americans the stigma of arrogant and dishonorable to the Chinese.
The thing is Lex, the goal was not to create "Japanese" names, (and the goal with a lot of Tianxia may not be to create "Chinese" names) but rather to create Minkai names (and Tianxia names). It's a distinct difference, though I'll grant you, so far names I create for my "Asian" home games and projects use a lot of "real world" Japanese and Chinese names. So there ya go, I guess I don't really know where I stand on the naming conventions...except to say I am not at all insulted by the names in Pathfinder #1 and no one I know is either (including my Japanese friends, this topic really interested me so I called many of them today to chat about this). I think insulting is too strong. I think these are common overreactions of western scholars who have appropriated "authentic" Asian culture as their own in some cases (I totally understand this, I've been there! And sometimes I'm still there!!!). This may not be the case at all for you. But anyhoo, you'll be happy to know that all "Chinese" sounding place and people names for Tian Xia thus far are based on actual Chinese zi. ;-)
I think the ruler of Tianxia considers him or herself "ruler of everything under heaven"...I can't wait to see what Cheliax thinks about that. ;-)Ethnocentrism at its best, of course.
It's gonna be awesome.
"All under heaven?" Nice. I wonder if he enjoyed Hero, too.
Ha! The funny thing is I hated that movie. :-)
Hate is a strong word. I loathed it I guess. ;-)
No seriously, it had some ups and downs, and after watching the steaming crap that was "House of Flying Daggers"..."Hero" is actually pretty awesome by comparison.
No I really dig the concept of Tian Xia and how it relates to the Emperor's role as Tian Zi and how that relates to Ming. Ming is what it's all about, and that's why Flash Gordon is the snizzle. :-)
Just kidding, I don't care if Logue slaughters Chinese names in Golarion's China. I've got my own homebrew-mutant-Greyhawk China that my Chinese players love (YES! real Chinese people playing D&D! and they helped me name the provinces) so I can either smile and smugly laugh when I see than mine is better than Logue's, or envy him for his talent.
Get ready to ENVY Kruel!!! ;-)
I had a blast with my Chinese players in Beijing...miss them! Miss the awesome pre-game vocab prep too...DMing in Chinese the ultimate language lesson!!! I am filled with ENVY right now my man! Enjoy it! I think you may dig on some of the stuff Mike and I are working on for Tian Xia, but then again you be a connoisseur, we'll see if we can live up to your expectations!
If there do turn out to be ninja and samurai, do you think it would be possible to call them something other than ninja or samurai, since those words are actually Japanese?
I definiately DON'T want to call the "samurai" samurai. It's just too loaded with bad American cinema motifs (and some bad Japanese cinema too) and while it immediately conjures up some cool ideas, it also limits the mind's meanderings on the topic too. I am kicking around some other ideas for the name. It might be a real Japanese word or not, I haven't decided yet. As someone whose opinion is worth great respect, do you have any thoughts on a good alternative Takamori? Real word or no? I'd be very interested in hearing your opinion on this. Thanks in advance!
And the talk above about Mandarin made me want to go back and watch Firefly all over again...
Yum!
I for one will be bending a craggy eye or two at Logue's use of Chinese as he plunders Chinese culture for ideas. Tian Xia is a pretty good ancient name for the land and has my personal and meaningless seal of approval, although it doesn't do too well as the name for a state.
It's not meaningless approval to me Kruel! Keep it coming!!! :-)
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Okay, li'l spiel:
I can see the issue on, well, all quadrillion of it's sides.
On the one hand, the argument of fantasy naming conventions makes total sense to me: one of the simplest ways to create the feel of "not our Earth" is to futch around with the names, even in the simplest manner. As an example, in a psuedo Addventure game that I was in when I was in high school, we had created a "mirror world" with "mirror characters", mostly by reversing names. It's a ridiculously easy and overused convention, but it WORKED FABULOUSLY. I remember how much different and unique my "mirror", Tces, was from my own character.
On the other hand, due to the... unique... writing system that Japanese and Chinese incorporates, it can be easy to be offended at the seemingly mishmash attempt at "faking" the names. I know that, sometimes, when I'm creating characters of a Japanese-ish origin, I pop open my Japanese kanji dictionary and English-Japanese dictionary, choose a few words, look it up in the kanji dictionary, and choose the best sounding readings per word; then I mash it together. It's a lot of fun, really.
On the other... palm?, I can also see how some may get offended. I have great pride in my real name, Sean (last name omitted (hah! Faked you out!)) I get annoyed when someone writes my name as Shaun or other correct spellings, and it irrationally angers me whenever someone misspells my last name (which is easy as all hell to do). There's no reason for my annoyance, what with the monstrosity that is the English language (go us!); it's just I have great pride in my name.
... I'm done; this li'l boy is hongray.
I'm really glad you are involved in the creation of Tianxia. Having some real Chinese people in on it wouldn't hurt, but then I know it's a limited group creating it.
And by the way, everyone might be wondering how the hell you pronounce the 'X'.
As far as my homebrew version of the Celestial Imperium, it's pretty cool and hard to beat, none of it is posted anywhere for browsing and I'm too lazy to do so, but, I'm not adverse to pitching it! By far the coolest thing I came up with, and some of my players helped flesh out, was... well, have you ever played Zork Grand Inquisitor? Unlicensed magic was banned by imperial decree and all magic users were recruited by the state. The spin-offs were advances in technology and science among common people and all kind of state provided magical 'improvements' in social engineering, like propaganda spewing magic mouths at every intersection that admonish the people to be obedient and productive. A Zork GI meets the cultural revolution sort of thing.
Look forward to seeing your stuff.
I'm really glad you are involved in the creation of Tianxia. Having some real Chinese people in on it wouldn't hurt, but then I know it's a limited group creating it.
And by the way, everyone might be wondering how the hell you pronounce the 'X'.
As far as my homebrew version of the Celestial Imperium, it's pretty cool and hard to beat, none of it is posted anywhere for browsing and I'm too lazy to do so, but, I'm not adverse to pitching it! By far the coolest thing I came up with, and some of my players helped flesh out, was... well, have you ever played Zork Grand Inquisitor? Unlicensed magic was banned by imperial decree and all magic users were recruited by the state. The spin-offs were advances in technology and science among common people and all kind of state provided magical 'improvements' in social engineering, like propaganda spewing magic mouths at every intersection that admonish the people to be obedient and productive. A Zork GI meets the cultural revolution sort of thing.
Look forward to seeing your stuff.
Thanks Kruel! Rest assured my Chinese friends will be right there with me on this! I dig your above concept and I can tell you something like this is very likely going to see the light of day somewhere in Golarion. I think the Paizo dudes might have beat me to this (so it may not be in Tianxia that this type of society exists). It is awesome though. I'll bet your campaign is kicking! I'd love to sit in! Damn my America bound self!!!
Okay, li'l spiel:
I can see the issue on, well, all quadrillion of it's sides.
On the one hand, the argument of fantasy naming conventions makes total sense to me: one of the simplest ways to create the feel of "not our Earth" is to futch around with the names, even in the simplest manner. As an example, in a psuedo Addventure game that I was in when I was in high school, we had created a "mirror world" with "mirror characters", mostly by reversing names. It's a ridiculously easy and overused convention, but it WORKED FABULOUSLY. I remember how much different and unique my "mirror", Tces, was from my own character.
On the other hand, due to the... unique... writing system that Japanese and Chinese incorporates, it can be easy to be offended at the seemingly mishmash attempt at "faking" the names. I know that, sometimes, when I'm creating characters of a Japanese-ish origin, I pop open my Japanese kanji dictionary and English-Japanese dictionary, choose a few words, look it up in the kanji dictionary, and choose the best sounding readings per word; then I mash it together. It's a lot of fun, really.
On the other... palm?, I can also see how some may get offended. I have great pride in my real name, Sean (last name omitted (hah! Faked you out!)) I get annoyed when someone writes my name as Shaun or other correct spellings, and it irrationally angers me whenever someone misspells my last name (which is easy as all hell to do). There's no reason for my annoyance, what with the monstrosity that is the English language (go us!); it's just I have great pride in my name.
... I'm done; this li'l boy is hongray.
Yeah it's a complicated issue any way you slice it. I think Takamori and everyone on this thread brings up great points. I think the best way to work it is to not worry too much about adhering to any one "policy" of naming. Afterall this is creative fantasy, and should not be censored by real world limitations. James said something great about using real-world cultures as inspiration to enhance creativity...not to limit it. I'm big on this. Go further, don't go accurate, is my creedo for campaign setting development. Chiming in on Pathfinder is awesome, and working on "Dragons of Eberron" and "Stormreach" with Keith Baker (the creator himself) has really given me a chance to flex my personal ideologies on campaign setting development too. I hope it turns out to people's liking.
Now as I do not speak Japanese, I do speak Chinese. And like Japanese name, Chinese names all have deep rooted meaning. To just "make up" a Chinese name would serve nothing but to make the Chinese shake their head and call you crazy laowai. It also shows ignorance and disrespect to the culture. Now The Japanese have relaxed a little but the Chinese are still highly motivated by honor and are easily insulted by things Americans find trivial. It is also part of what gives Americans the stigma of arrogant and dishonorable to the Chinese.
The thing is Lex, the goal was not to create "Japanese" names, (and the goal with a lot of Tianxia may not be to create "Chinese" names) but rather to create Minkai names (and Tianxia names). It's a distinct difference, though I'll grant you, so far names I create for my "Asian" home games and projects use a lot of "real world" Japanese and Chinese names. So there ya go, I guess I don't really know where I stand on the naming conventions...except to say I am not at all insulted by the names in Pathfinder #1 and no one I know is either (including my Japanese friends, this topic really interested me so I called many of them today to chat about this). I think insulting is too strong. I think these are common overreactions of western scholars who have appropriated "authentic" Asian culture as their own (I totally understand this, I've been there! And sometimes I'm still there!!!). ;-)
Hmmmm, perhaps this is your experience, but it is not mine. I know many Chinese who believe that Americans dishonor Chinese culture and heritage. I know, my father is one such man. While it bothers him, and he grumbles about it often, he will say nothing to Americans about it.
I find it it frustrating that many westerners think that if it sounds Chinese, it is passible.
As I have said before, I do not think that Paizo did a bad job, but I do think that if they wish to use Chinese names for the nation, perhaps they should for the people too. Likewise, if they model a kingdom after Japan, which they have done (or why use Japanese sounding names?), why not use japanese naming convention? From their responses I think that they do like this idea and will use it.
I am no more insulted by this bastardization, than I am when I watch american made "kung fu" movies. I take them for what they are, and shake my head (with a amused smile on my face). Would I like people to treat my culture with less frivolity in fantasy? Yes. But who DOES want their culture to be misrepresented.
Perhaps Americans would be annoyed if in fantasy a kingdom "inspired" by them had a illiterate king who is a religious zealot with an Int. of 6. The citizens where slothful and fat, and where known for being loud, rude, proud, cocky, arrogant, and bad dressers. They were also an aggressive kingdom verging on being bullies. I'm sure that would upset a few people.
Likewise, I dislike that Chinese are portrayed as mystic, "kung fu" fighting, xenophobic, baby killers. Those stereotypes, get spread and are often celebrated in fantasy. Not every Chinese knows "kung fu". Not all are spiritual people. But we are prideful people and often this "orientalism" as someone called it is seen as mockery, not flattery. I know it is done out of ignorance, and it is not anyone being mean - but it still makes us shake our heads, and sometimes enough is enough. Perhaps you understand this?
I think the ruler of Tianxia considers him or herself "ruler of everything under heaven"...I can't wait to see what Cheliax thinks about that. ;-)Ethnocentrism at its best, of course.It's gonna be awesome.
I like this, Chinese where known for this, and I think that any kingdom using China as a base should have a bit of it. :) I'm looking forward to what you do with it.
It's not meaningless approval to me Kruel! Keep it coming!!! :-)
I for one will be bending a craggy eye or two at Logue's use of Chinese as he plunders Chinese culture for ideas. Tian Xia is a pretty good ancient name for the land and has my personal and meaningless seal of approval, although it doesn't do too well as the name for a state.
Think the name is good. It has a good sound and feel for what I think you want to do with it.
I'm not adverse to pitching it!
I read Logue's reply and thought, "did I really write that?"
Nice one, and I'm an English teacher.
*averse
I can also see how some may get offended. I have great pride in my real name, Sean (last name omitted (hah! Faked you out!)) I get annoyed when someone writes my name as Shaun or other correct spellings, and it irrationally angers me whenever someone misspells my last name (which is easy as all hell to do). There's no reason for my annoyance, what with the monstrosity that is the English language (go us!); it's just I have great pride in my name.
Yes, In fact, I have taken an American name that is close enough to my name to stop people from butchering my name....
Hmmmm, perhaps this is your experience, but it is not mine. I know many Chinese who believe that Americans dishonor Chinese culture and heritage. I know, my father is one such man. While it bothers him, and he grumbles about it often, he will say nothing to Americans about it.I find it it frustrating that many westerners think that if it sounds Chinese, it is passible.
But we are not talking about a story or adventure set in "China" but in "Tianxia" there is a distinct difference. You'll see I promise.
As I have said before, I do not think that Paizo did a bad job, but I do think that if they wish to use Chinese names for the nation, perhaps they should for the people too. Likewise, if they model a kingdom after Japan, which they have done (or why use Japanese sounding names?), why not use japanese naming convention? From their responses I think that they do like this idea and will use it.
I'm all for it. I'm just not for slavishly doing it. Minkai should have room for its own cultures different from real world Japan. They might need different names and naming conventions. That should be okay in my book too. Minkai is not modeled on Japan, it is inspired by it, there is a difference. Many things Mike has mentioned to me about Minkai are a complete disconnect from real-world Japan, and that is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Real world Japan is a starting point for the creative design of Minkai, not the goal. But yeah, "real sounding" Japanese names are a good thing too.
I am no more insulted by this bastardization, than I am when I watch american made "kung fu" movies. I take them for what they are, and shake my head (with a amused smile on my face). Would I like people to treat my culture with less frivolity in fantasy? Yes. But who DOES want their culture to be misrepresented.
This is unfair in my opinion. You are willing to give bad kung-fu movies a free pass, but Pathfinder's Tianxia which isn't supposed to be a real or accurate depiction of China, but rather a fantasy realm using China as the creative starting point (the way Greyhawk uses a lot of cultures as it's starting point) is bad bad bad. If Tianxia was called "Fantasy China" I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, but it's not. It's something else that draws heavily upon Chinese history and mythos but goes in its own wild directions as well. Give it a chance, and try not to pull out the "Not Chinese Enough" zhang to stamp it with when you eventually get to take a look (who knows when).
Perhaps Americans would be annoyed if in fantasy a kingdom "inspired" by them had a illiterate king who is a religious zealot with an Int. of 6. The citizens where slothful and fat, and where known for being loud, rude, proud, cocky, arrogant, and bad dressers. They were also an aggressive kingdom verging on being bullies. I'm sure that would upset a few people.
I personally think this would be hilarious and would take no offense. I would buy that campaign setting in a heart beat.
Likewise, I dislike that Chinese are portrayed as mystic, "kung fu" fighting, xenophobic, baby killers. Those stereotypes, get spread and are often celebrated in fantasy. Not every Chinese knows "kung fu". Not all are spiritual people. But we are prideful people and often this "orientalism" as someone called it is seen as mockery, not flattery. I know it is done out of ignorance, and it is not anyone being mean - but it still makes us shake our heads, and sometimes enough is enough. Perhaps you understand this?
No one is talking about or intending to do this with Tian Xia. I totally agree that any of what you cited above is ridiculous and morally wrong. But again, I'll beat the same drum: Tianxia is NOT China. It is a realm inspired by China and then going in its own wild directions.
"Orientalism" is neither mockery or flattery, but far more complex and inappropriate in my opinion. It is an "Other-ification" of a culture that results in all sorts of presumptions, misappropriations and judgments.
I have no intention of Orientalizing China with Tianxia. Nor do I have any intention of judging China. Tianxia is a created place with its own history and culture, SOME of which is going to be inspired by China. Fear not. I would not dishonor my second homeland.
Yes, In fact, I have taken an American name that is close enough to my name to stop people from butchering my name....
Yah, the same for us Laowai in China but the other way around.
Think the name is good. It has a good sound and feel for what I think you want to do with it.It's not meaningless approval to me Kruel! Keep it coming!!! :-)
I for one will be bending a craggy eye or two at Logue's use of Chinese as he plunders Chinese culture for ideas. Tian Xia is a pretty good ancient name for the land and has my personal and meaningless seal of approval, although it doesn't do too well as the name for a state.
Thanks Lex! I'm very interested in input from yourself, Kruel, Perhuain and any other Chinese or "Old China-hand" readers. You are my demographic! Please all keep in mind though, that I am not going for accuracy, but a D&Dification of a realm inspired by real world China. But keep this awesome feedback coming guys, I am really learning a lot from your responses.
San ren xing, bi you wo shi.
Perhaps Americans would be annoyed if in fantasy a kingdom "inspired" by them had a illiterate king who is a religious zealot with an Int. of 6. The citizens where slothful and fat, and where known for being loud, rude, proud, cocky, arrogant, and bad dressers. They were also an aggressive kingdom verging on being bullies. I'm sure that would upset a few people.
There's a great movie like this, it's recent, and I just can't remember the name.
Yes, In fact, I have taken an American name that is close enough to my name to stop people from butchering my name....Yah, the same for us Laowai in China but the other way around.
In the one semester I took of Mandarin my lecturer gave me the Chinese name Zhan Mu Si. It's James, see? It's made from zi that mean "soldier" and "to look ahead" so I guess my name in China is "Scout."
This is unfair in my opinion. You are willing to give bad kung-fu movies a free pass, but Pathfinder's...
Please, do not mistake me, I am not pre-judging your work, only voicing concerns. I like this about Paizo, they listen and talk with their customers. They take us seriously, it is good business. I do not give these movies a "free pass" - in most cases I find them disgraceful and lacking good taste. But I can do nothing about them - here I can voice my concerns about work that is not yet finished. This is my intentions.
Creative Director
|
"All under heaven?" Nice. I wonder if he enjoyed Hero, too.
Ha! The funny thing is I hated that movie. :-)
Hate is a strong word. I loathed it I guess. ;-)
No seriously, it had some ups and downs, and after watching the steaming crap that was "House of Flying Daggers"..."Hero" is actually pretty awesome by comparison.
OH NOES! I loved BOTH those movies, but ESPECIALLY "House of Flying Daggers!" That's too bad, cause now we're gonna have to fight, and you know kung-fu. I better go start taking some fighting lessons. Or maybe buy a tiny pistol to hide in my shoe.
San ren xing, bi you wo shi.
For anyone reading and not on the 'in': When three people walk together, you can learn from one. Or something like that. Translating Chinese is crazy business.
Something like: You can learn from anyone.
My favorite: A wise man can learn from a fool.
This is unfair in my opinion. You are willing to give bad kung-fu movies a free pass, but Pathfinder's...Please, do not mistake me, I am not pre-judging your work, only voicing concerns. I like this about Paizo, they listen and talk with their customers. They take us seriously, it is good business. I do not give these movies a "free pass" - in most cases I find them disgraceful and lacking good taste. But I can do nothing about them - here I can voice my concerns about work that is not yet finished. This is my intentions.
Awesome! Concerns noted and the input is awesome Lex! Keep it coming! Sorry I mistook your last post for "NICK BAD HATE TIAN XIA!" ;-)
Sorry my man! Keep the great feedback coming. As I said, you and Kruel are my demographic for any input I get to put towards Tianxia...I'm hoping it's lots, but hey, me just freelancer man. ;-)
San ren xing, bi you wo shi.For anyone reading and not on the 'in': When three people walk together, you can learn from one. Or something like that. Translating Chinese is crazy business.
Something like: You can learn from anyone.
My favorite: A wise man can learn from a fool.
Good trans-action! I find the more translations the better for grokking for those who don't speak so I'll add:
Three people walking, one must be my teacher.
But yeah, "you can learn from anyone" is spot on with the essence of it. You rock Kruel! I may have to fly to Shandong just to throw the dice with you...and maybe eat huoguo with you too. Gads above but I do miss the huoguo.
Think the name is good. It has a good sound and feel for what I think you want to do with it.It's not meaningless approval to me Kruel! Keep it coming!!! :-)
I for one will be bending a craggy eye or two at Logue's use of Chinese as he plunders Chinese culture for ideas. Tian Xia is a pretty good ancient name for the land and has my personal and meaningless seal of approval, although it doesn't do too well as the name for a state.
Thanks Lex! I'm very interested in input from yourself, Kruel, Perhuain and any other Chinese or "Old China-hand" readers. You are my demographic! Please all keep in mind though, that I am not going for accuracy, but a D&Dification of a realm inspired by real world China. But keep this awesome feedback coming guys, I am really learning a lot from your responses.
San ren xing, bi you wo shi.
Will you have Snake Heads or the equivalent? This is something fearsome from modern China you can add... Maybe as a guild? Or maybe they plot to kill emperor and take the kingdom for them... You know we Chinese like to plot and our history is filled with such treachery.
Will you also consider adding Mongol elements?
OH NOES! I loved BOTH those movies, but ESPECIALLY "House of Flying Daggers!" That's too bad, cause now we're gonna have to fight, and you know kung-fu. I better go start taking some fighting lessons. Or maybe buy a tiny pistol to hide in my shoe.
It's on like Donkey Kong James. Really, you liked "House of Flying Daggers"...really?
::Nick hides his face in his hands and cries noisily...his idol is mortal afterall...::