My husband and I had a fascinating discussion recently about the difference between the two words, "pedantic" and "didactic." Basically, we were trying to figure out which term best described a statement one of us had made. It was quite illuminating.
This thread just reminded me of it. I'm having the best time deciding which term best applies to a few of the posts here.
(Up to this point, my post has been neither. If I go on to explain that "Pedantic" means "ostentatious in one's learning" and "Didactic" means "inclined to teach or lecture others too much" then I'm being one of these - but which one?)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I would get tired of "Bob the Bartender" and "Kevin the Cleric" and "Tim the Sorcerer."
"Tim the Enchanter", on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable.
By the way, whenever I see your name, I imagine a noble dwarf (or, at least, as noble as they get) wearing a green helmet ^_^
I would get tired of "Bob the Bartender" and "Kevin the Cleric" and "Tim the Sorcerer.""Tim the Enchanter", on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable.
By the way, whenever I see your name, I imagine a noble dwarf (or, at least, as noble as they get) wearing a green helmet ^_^
Doh! I thought Tim was a Sorcercer, not an Enchanter! My mistake. :-)
(And geek point to you, my friend!)That is a very specific image! That's cool. But Kelvar is actually a Half-Elf.
So, um, to prevent threadjacking, yeah, I don't want to see "Tim the Enchanter" as the big bad guy in a Pathfinder volume or Gamemastery Module. Mithotmy the Cruel, perhaps. But not Tim.
I would just like to note something that I think IS being overlooked. Takamori made a legitimate observation, and gave a suggestion. It really irks me to see people get pissy over such a thing.
Now as I do not speak Japanese, I do speak Chinese. And like Japanese name, Chinese names all have deep rooted meaning. To just "make up" a Chinese name would serve nothing but to make the Chinese shake their head and call you crazy laowai. It also shows ignorance and disrespect to the culture. Now The Japanese have relaxed a little but the Chinese are still highly motivated by honor and are easily insulted by things Americans find trivial. It is also part of what gives Americans the stigma of arrogant and dishonorable to the Chinese.
I have watch RPG pervert and bastardize the Chinese culture for years... and whilst it makes for fun role-playing for those who don't know better, for the people that do, it makes for a sad commentary on how ignorant we as a society are towards their culture.
So it IS a valid observation of a perceived problem, and unlike other people, he offered a solution as a suggestion, not a demand.
For people to come on here and say "what's the big deal" only shows ignorance and disrespect to a proud culture. Yes this is fantasy, but it is based in, inspired by, and flavoring with another real life culture. Here in the west it is okay to bastardize things, but in the east it is not. And all Takamori has done is point that out.
So lay off of him. There are a few other people in here who do speak the language, and some agree and some disagree with him. But they have done so respectfully and without marginalizing another culture.
If you have something intelligent to add to the conversation please do so, but to disagree and to site: "it's just fantasy dude," is lame and exposes the depth of a persons ignorance to what is actually being discussed. What could have been taken away from here could have been a cultural education, but too many over-inflated gamer egos were hurt and this thread has turned into a mess.
"For people to come on here and say "what's the big deal" only shows ignorance and disrespect to a proud culture."
Sigh. My apologies to anyone of Minkai heritage who might be offended...
"For people to come on here and say "what's the big deal" only shows ignorance and disrespect to a proud culture."
Sigh. My apologies to anyone of Minkai heritage who might be offended...
You prove my point.
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Lex, with all due respect, I think you fail to appreciate the spirit of pastiche and camp that runs through the tacky heart of D&D. What you call sensitivity, I call a kind of Puritanism.
Many people here disagree with you not because they lack a broad cultural education, but because they recognize that no culture survives - molested, misunderstood and misrepresented - the cruel collage of the fantasy medium. We're all bastards as far as D&D is concerned.
I do see where you're coming from, but I think this is the wrong medium to argue the point.
Lex, with all due respect, I think you fail to appreciate the spirit of pastiche and camp that runs through the tacky heart of D&D. What you call sensitivity, I call a kind of Puritanism.
Many people here disagree with you not because they lack a broad cultural education, but because they recognize that no culture survives - molested, misunderstood and misrepresented - the cruel collage of the fantasy medium. We're all bastards as far as D&D is concerned.
I do see where you're coming from, but I think this is the wrong medium to argue the point.
Actually it does not offend me at all, it just makes me shake my head.
And lets not make a straw man argument here - my point is that what could have been a friendly conversation and cultural education was turned into a smearfest by those who fail to appreciate the subtleties of the Asian cultures, not that Paizo was wrong.
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Takamori,
Thanks for starting this thread. I find it somewhat distressing how much you were attacked for doing so. Alas.
I certainly understand where you're coming from and I am sympathetic to your position. I don't agree with you, for reasons best expressed by James Jacobs, but you have put your argument into my mind and I guess we'll see how things fall out from there. :)
To everyone who attacked Takamori: chill the hell out. Seriously. He put forward his concerns and was respectful and diplomatic. Take a lesson.
I have watch RPG pervert and bastardize the Chinese culture for years... and whilst it makes for fun role-playing for those who don't know better, for the people that do, it makes for a sad commentary on how ignorant we as a society are towards their culture. Here in the west it is okay to bastardize things, but in the east it is not.
Woah... Takamori's posts have been appropriate. The sort of cultural elitism quoted above is more than a little bit insulting, however. You demand respect (translate "slavish realism") with respect to one culture, and at the same time tell me that other cultures are fair game to lampoon and demean? Some of my former countrymen had an almost exactly similar idea when they were shouting "Heil Hitler." The idea went poorly for them. I haven't attacked the original poster, and if I'm coming across as overly hostile to the above post, it's because that was exactly the concept that killed so many of my relatives before and during the war.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I have watch RPG pervert and bastardize the Chinese culture for years... and whilst it makes for fun role-playing for those who don't know better, for the people that do, it makes for a sad commentary on how ignorant we as a society are towards their culture. Here in the west it is okay to bastardize things, but in the east it is not.Woah... that sort of cultural elitism is more than a little bit insulting, however. You demand respect (translate "slavish realism") with respect to one culture, and at the same time tell me that other cultures are fair game to lampoon and demean? Some of my former countrymen had an almost exactly similar idea when they were shouting "Heil Hitler." The idea went poorly for them. I haven't attacked the original poster, and if I'm coming across as overly hostile to the above post, it's because that was exactly the concept that killed so many of my relatives before and during the war.
Lex, don't respond to this one. It's a valid point, but it's just going lead to trouble.
No offense, Kirth; just don't like LOUD NOISES.
No offense, Kirth; just don't like LOUD NOISES.
None taken from you at all, Sect. Lex failed to consider the graves at Auschwitz and Buchenwald before he posted, is all. One culture is not inherently "better" and "more worthy" of respect than all others.
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I think the OP raised an interesting point. I really haven't been able to figure out what I think about it. I just want to say that it's given me a lot of food for thought, and I'm trying to formulate an opinion.
I also have avoided chiming in on this thread because it looks like a flamewar waiting to happen.
Creative Director
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So I've had a day to mull it over, and the OP has a 100% valid point. If only because I realized that I myself have gone on a similar rant about naming conventions in another product: the alternate dinosaur names in Eberron.
SO! There's nothing to be done about Tsuto and Ameiko and Kaijitsu, since they're established already, and I still like the sound of their names even if they're nonsense names. Going forward though, I'll do what I can to make sure that the names make more sense from a Japanese POV, althoguh I'm still going to be skewing toward made-up names. Just names that sound made up using the Japanese (or Chinese or Korean or whatever) language.
No need for flame wars.
And for the record, I wasn't insulted by the naming guide. It's actually kind of helpful.
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I think the OP raised an interesting point. I really haven't been able to figure out what I think about it. I just want to say that it's given me a lot of food for thought, and I'm trying to formulate an opinion.
I also have avoided chiming in on this thread because it looks like a flamewar waiting to happen.
I was initially irked, but now I'm glad that the OP made his eloquent post. I disagree with him, but discussions like this are fun to read. The only part that offends me is the subtext that someone would be more inclined to agree with him if they were more educated on the subject. This is a fascinating collision between cultural sensitivity and artistic license.
Instead of "making a big deal out of" the unconventional names James used for the characters from Minkai, it might be more worthwhile to accept them as unusual-sounding fantasy names and then use them as the basis for an alternate language that could have originated in the fictional land of Minkai.
I had accepted them by the conclusion of my conversation with Mr. Jacobs; what's succeeded that is comprised mostly of linguistic banter and debate mixed in with my responses to people incredulous that I could possible think the way I do.
So for anybody still reading this: I've accepted those names as they are in Pathfinder. I'm not the happiest clam in the sea about it, but I've accepted them. I still, however, welcome discussion on where to draw the line between reality (a healthy dose is good, wot?) and fantasy so that the game may be both enjoyable and believable.
And for the record, I wasn't insulted by the naming guide. It's actually kind of helpful.
I intended it merely in a helpful spirit, but I'm sorry if it came across as arrogant/snobbish as has been suggested.
I realized that I myself have gone on a similar rant about naming conventions in another product: the alternate dinosaur names in Eberron.
Heh... you got me there, too! Nice.
For what it's worth, Takamori, I enjoyed your posts, even if I didn't necessarily follow where they were headed. And I salute you for affording other cultures the same respect you extend to the Japanese. Domo Arigato, Takamori-san.
... It also shows ignorance and disrespect to the culture. Now The Japanese have relaxed a little but the Chinese are still highly motivated by honor and are easily insulted by things Americans find trivial. It is also part of what gives Americans the stigma of arrogant and dishonorable to the Chinese.
Now see... This I find funny. Not in the tickled chuckle way either. Funny as in a weird kind of strange.
I respect the Paizonians, and the way they have handled the whole affair. And I am rather glad I held my figurative tongue earlier in the thread.
I found Takamori to come off as arrogant and insulting.
Not because of the point s/he was trying to make, but how s/he went about it.
And that is because s/he showed ignorance and disrespect to my culture. (Which may not be typical for an American.)
S/he voiced her/his concerns, and offered to help via private messages / email. While I found the manner tacky, it could easily be written off as sincere and accidental.
James Jacobs voiced his opinion on the matter, and then Takamori reasserted the offer to help via private methods. Okay, kind of pushy and arrogant... But easily written off as a sincere attempt to make sure Mr. Jacobs saw the offer.
Finally, when Mr. Jacobs posted again, and didn't seem willing to grovel for Takamori's obviously superior knowledge on the subject, Takamori posted her/his guide directly to the board.
While I am not claiming Takamori did this intentionally, or even in the manner I read it, it did almost push me to the point of ranting in this thread. Because I am of the opinion that if Mr. Jacobs, and especially me if I was in his position, had wanted the help - he / we would have taken Takamori up on the offer. Everything else was uncalled for.
What is the point of my rambling?
What is insulting to some, is normal to others.
What is genuine and sincere to some, is insulting to others.
And most importantly: Don't ever expect others to treat a culture better than you treat theirs. And that goes both ways to all reading.
For what it's worth, Takamori, I enjoyed your posts, even if I didn't necessarily follow where they were headed. And I salute you for affording other cultures the same respect you extend to the Japanese. Domo Arigato, Takamori-san.
Mit tiefer Dankbarkeit, Herr Gersen.
Finally, when Mr. Jacobs posted again, and didn't seem willing to grovel for Takamori's obviously superior knowledge on the subject, Takamori posted her/his guide directly to the board.
I...I wasn't trying to get him to...grovel...
Though now that you mention it, I hadn't gotten my daily dose of godlike worshipping. Perhaps I was feeling a mite peckish, hmm?
I do think it is unfortunate that anyone was attacked. However, as threads are a place where a plethora of personalities gather, one will be attacked eventually if one holds an opinion. This does not delegitimize all those that have respectfully disagreed with Takamori.
My point is this: to give the Chinese or Japanese culture more "legitimacy", as one not to be used to create wildly divergent fantasy elements, but to say its okay to do with European or other cultures, seems like just the kind of Orientalism that Said spoke of. I do disagree with calling the Chinese culture, "proud", as I do calling Americans ignorant or arrogant. That's just the kind of homogenizing of a culture that Said was objecting to.
I don't think it's necessarily the responsibility of one culture not to offend another. There are plenty of things in Chinese history and social structure I find reprehensible, regardless of whether I "understand" it or not.
The United States is a smorgasbord of cultures. You see it not only in diverse skin color and physical traits, but in the food, the language, and frankly, the D&D world settings. We tend to mix and match. We read the Tao and give it a Western philosophical slant. We have Tex-Mex. We have words like pronto, à la carte, karaoke, and so many more. It's who we are and what we do. Some of it becomes so divergent that it has nothing to do with the original culture. I've heard that fortune cookies don't really exist in China, but I have yet to hear a Chinese restaurant owner object. I don't think this hodge podge of culture is reprehensible; in fact, i love it.
I understand Takamori's point of view. In a nation that has its own soldiers ignorant enough to enter a mosque with boots and take pictures, we could use a little more cultural sensitivity. But I think the names not sounding legitimately Japanese in a fantasy setting is not culturally debasing. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps we need someone born and raised in Japan to enlighten us. And even then, that would be the opinion of just one person, who is not necessarily the spokesperson of an entire culture.
Mit tiefer Dankbarkeit, Herr Gersen.
Le plaisir, c'est a moi. And as one European-born, living in America, and who is a practicing Zen Buddhist, an argument could be made that I have no culture at all anymore... or that I myself am a "mishmash" as much as is D&D. Maybe that's why I like Whimsy Chris' posts, too?
I understand Takamori's point of view. In a nation that has its own soldiers ignorant enough to enter a mosque with boots and take pictures, we could use a little more cultural sensitivity. But I think the names not sounding legitimately Japanese in a fantasy setting is not culturally debasing. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps we need someone born and raised in Japan to enlighten us. And even then, that would be the opinion of...
I never claimed it was culturally debasing, though. Just...linguistically painful.
Like a little thorn: bearable but irritating.|
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Anyway, I'll just add that I think it's unreasonable to expect made-up pseudo-asian names to adhere to stricter naming conventions than made-up pseudo-european names. Regdar, Balabar Smenk, Filge, Mordenkainen, Sir Gyrad Tolgrith, and Valeros are all very bizarre names if you try to apply a real-world mindset to them, but in a fantasy world, they work to add flavor and enhance the sense of being in a different realm.
Agreed. I really think a double-standard is being applied here.
If we take a stringent approach to pseudo-Asian names, should we not also do the same with pseudo-European names?
Is it equally upsetting that Western and Western Fantasy characters in Eastern media (let's say anime, for example) tend to also have similarly bastardized names? Or is this sort of "occidentalism" acceptable? Regardless of the answer, why?
Besides, if we do take the more stringent approach, which Asian culture should we use as a basis? Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc.? How about Indian, Persian, etc.? This is compounded when the fantasy culture's isn't modeled strictly on a single culture (as is often the case of pseudo-European fantasy cultures), but more likely takes elements from different real-world cultures.
I'm not trying to be insensitive to any culture, I'm just trying to understand how this is insensitive to a specific culture when put into context with the same, existing treatment of other cultures?
I'm not trying to be insensitive to any culture, I'm just trying to understand how this is insensitive to a specific culture when put into context with the same, existing treatment of other cultures?
Exactly my point, vis-a-vis Lex. In Takamori's defense, he was equally interested in, say, Northern European correctness, for which I give him great respect--he's consistently into "correctness" across the board, but commented on the Japanese names as an example because those are the ones he knew best (or at least that's how I came to interpret it). It was subsequent posters who brought up this idea that some cultures were inherently superior to others.
I never claimed it was culturally debasing, though. Just...linguistically painful.
Like a little thorn: bearable but irritating.
Ah yes, I can see we've probably taken your position and blown it out of proportion, but it most certainly has generated an interesting discussion.
As for dinosaurs, if they were called, "Blue Velvet," I wouldn't really care. ;) But then again, I know little about dinosaurs. But for me, "a rose by any other name..."
Lex, with all due respect, I think you fail to appreciate the spirit of pastiche and camp that runs through the tacky heart of D&D. What you call sensitivity, I call a kind of Puritanism.Many people here disagree with you not because they lack a broad cultural education, but because they recognize that no culture survives - molested, misunderstood and misrepresented - the cruel collage of the fantasy medium. We're all bastards as far as D&D is concerned.
I do see where you're coming from, but I think this is the wrong medium to argue the point.
I think this sums it up quite well. Having read every post, frankly I'm a bit surprised to see James and Mike coming to the OP's defense. *shrug*
To me it seems to be an issue of double standards--made up names for one group are okay, but not for the other. I guess we all have our issues, I just fail to see the merit of this one. (Which is not to imply that it does not have merit, just that it eludes me/.)
Well, if this thread even remotely was "spirited" I think it has been well reasoned and well articulated on both sides of the debate. Which is part of what separates these forums from many others.
I think I'll go look for a more light-hearted thread now. Maybe something about how awesome Pathfinder Goblins are...
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I'm really curious now. I work for an accounting firm with a large Japanese and Korean client base. We have a host of in-house international tax law translators: I don't think any of them were linguistics majors (probably MBAs) but they'll do. I'm going to do a little office poll and see what they think about fantasy name conventions.
I'm not expecting anything illuminating. They'll probably just stare at me. But if they have something snappy to add, I'll try to post it.
I'm not trying to be insensitive to any culture, I'm just trying to understand how this is insensitive to a specific culture when put into context with the same, existing treatment of other cultures?
I'm going to try to address this, and I hope I don't come across as pedantic or arrogant.
It's because to make an equivalence, you have to actually do more work on the Japanese side, BECAUSE the naming conventions are, in fact, more complex.
In European/Western naming conventions, there are two forces at work: the meaning of the name, and the sound of the name, the sound being equivalent to the written form. If I name somebody "Valeros", we can examine whatever possible etymological meaning "Valeros" might have, but as far as the sound and written form go, they are the same.
In Japanese, there are three forces at work: the meaning of the name, the sound of the name, and the written form of the name, ALL OF WHICH ARE WHOLLY SEPARATE ENTITIES. Therein lies the problem. The sound and the written form are not one entity, but two separate entities, both of which must be reconciled with each other to make a name.
Somebody in America could conceivably name their child "Regdar". They would be considered rather balmy, but they could do it.
Somebody in Japan could NOT, similarly, name their child "Ameiko", because it is impossible to write, unless they decided to write it in syllabic hiragana or katakana ONLY, which is almost never done. It IS done sometimes, but ONLY in the case of names which can also be written in kanji (i.e. I know a woman named Yoshiko whose name is written in katakana only, a rather old-fashioned naming convention used only for women--but Yoshiko COULD have been written in kanji, had her mother/father desired it).
Therefore, to craft a viable name, the crafter must take one further step in Japanese than in English. This is not because of any cultural entitlement, but because it is a linguistic necessity. You can still, however, create unusual, fantasy-sounding names within the boundaries of this necessity.
Does that...help answer your question?
I'm really curious now. I work for an accounting firm with a large Japanese and Korean client base. We have a host of in-house international tax law translators: I don't think any of them were linguistics majors (probably MBAs) but they'll do. I'm going to do a little office poll and see what they think about fantasy name conventions.
I'd be very interested to hear what your [Japanese] clients have to say. Please let me know. The one girl I've asked so far (and I'll write this in Japanese and then translate it, just so anyone who knows Japanese can read it if they please) said this:
Me:
Amerikajin no tame no shousetsu ni ne, "Ameiko Kaijitsu" tte namae wo wafuu namae to shite tsukau koto ni dou omou?
Her:
Ee? Sonna namae, kiita koto ha nai yo.
Me:
Iya, jissai arienai namae dakedo, nihonjin no you na namae to shite katte ni tsukurareta mono de... (a word was edited out by the system because it was too similar to an English curse word)
Her:
Sonna hon, yomitakunai kedo...
TRANSLATION:
Me:
What do you think about using a name like "Ameiko Kaijitsu" as a 'Japanese-type' name in an American story?
Her:
Huh? I've never heard of that sort of name.
Me:
No, I mean it's not a real name, but it's something created to sound like a Japanese name...
Her:
I don't want to read that sort of book...
This is just my friend I'm talking to anyway, and as has been discussed before, it's probably more of an issue related to who the target audience is. For a Japanese audience, that sort of name is more than a little odd, but maybe it's all right for an American audience.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I understand Takamori's point of view. In a nation that has its own soldiers ignorant enough to enter a mosque with boots and take pictures, we could use a little more cultural sensitivity.
In our defense, we learned fairly quickly.
In any case, a little ethnocentrism never hurt anyone. Everyone just forgets that everyone else is of the same opinion about their own culture, as well.
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Ok, my 'poll' consists of two people right now. Everyone's at lunch. I don't speak Japanese, but my pronounciation is good, which causes some of my coworkers to assume I can understand them. Anyway...
Response #1 to Ameiko as a fantasy name
"Sounds Mexican"
Response #2
"What?"
"What?"
"I think you're saying it wrong"
"Oh. That's stupid."
They don't help my case much, but there you go.
Somebody in Japan could NOT, similarly, name their child "Ameiko", because it is impossible to write, unless they decided to write it in syllabic hiragana or katakana ONLY, which is almost never done. It IS done sometimes, but ONLY in the case of names which can also be written in kanji (i.e. I know a woman named Yoshiko whose name is written in katakana only, a rather old-fashioned naming convention used only for women--but Yoshiko COULD have been written in kanji, had her mother/father desired it).Therefore, to craft a viable name, the crafter must take one further step in Japanese than in English. This is not because of any cultural entitlement, but because it is a linguistic necessity. You can still, however, create...
This is educational and I appreciate your explanation. Just to play the devil's advocate, or to help me understand further, couldn't a person say that in Minkai such linguistic traditions and character notations have different connotations of sound and meaning? For instance, a fantasy name in English could be spelled out, Joh'Lork. The apostrophe doesn't necessarily have any meaning in English, but can still be used in a fantasy name with different conventions. We continue to use English characters only because that is what we have to go on, but it's not necessarily the characters used in the actual fantasy world.
In other words, I feel like we are making up the rules when it comes to fantasy names, but it seems that you feel we should stick to a kanji tradition in the fantasy world of Minkai. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I guess I need further understanding.
You're presupposing that a one for one modeling of the real world is, in some way, an "improvement." I respectfully disagree. I like my fantasy and my history to be distinct. If you are interested in historical reenactment and that sort of thing, then you might be interested in the SCA and similar groups, but I suspect D&D will be difficult to "improve" to your liking.
I'm all for European snobbery. Let's clean the whole house, shall we?
You are uniquely situated to tell me how the European side of things can be improved upon. Can you give me any thoughts or ideas; things you see as wrong or inaccurate on the European side but never bothered to look at twice? I would really, truly love to hear such things.
Excuse me while I laugh. The SCA is mostly composed of people who want to act "medieval-ish" (as you put it). There is only a small minority of (forgive me if this term offends anyone) "period nazis" who go to great lengths to ensure 100% historical authenticity in something. Heck, there is an entire SCA group based on the Gor novels...
Similarly, I like names that aren't real world names. I've only once played a PC with a real world name. I usually just make up names that I think sound cool. And I like it when folks like Paizo come up with their own names as well. I would get tired of "Bob the Bartender" and "Kevin the Cleric" and "Tim the Sorcerer." So they make up names for the vaguely European cultures. I don't see why they should suddenly get all uptight about "accuracy" when they make up names for the vaguely Asian cultures.
Unless a game designer is also a linguist (like Tolkein) who creates languages for each culture (don't hold your breath), they only have two choices for flavor: "borrow" names/words from a real world language or "make up" names/words that "sound similar" to a real world language. I'm probably like most gamers in that I borrow from the real world AND make up as desired. If you don't like "Bob," "Kevin," or "Tim," real world names like "Bodmar," "Kyriell," and "Tremsin" are pretty exotic for most people.
I have watch RPG pervert and bastardize the Chinese culture for years... and whilst it makes for fun role-playing for those who don't know better, for the people that do, it makes for a sad commentary on how ignorant we as a society are towards their culture.
As others have said, it's done the same for various European cultures, as well. To create artificial distinctions of "cultural/historical purity" in FANTASY is counterproductive to the intent of using real world cultures as a basis for flavor instead of writing a historical romance (or history, for that matter).
This is educational and I appreciate your explanation. Just to play the devil's advocate, or to help me understand further, couldn't a person say that in Minkai such linguistic traditions and character notations have different connotations of sound and meaning? For instance, a fantasy name in English could be spelled out, Joh'Lork. The apostrophe doesn't necessarily have any meaning in English, but can still be used in a fantasy name with different conventions. We continue to use English characters only because that is what we have to go on, but it's not necessarily the characters used in the actual fantasy world.
In other words, I feel like we are making up the rules when it comes to fantasy names, but it seems that you feel we should stick to a kanji tradition in the fantasy world of Minkai. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I guess I need further understanding.
The difference, to me, is that "Joh'Lork" doesn't fit into any real-world cultural medium as far as I can tell. "Kaijitsu" and "Ameiko" are obviously, and as Mr. Jacobs also affirmed, attempting to "sound" Japanese, but if they want to "sound" Japanese to someone who speaks Japanese, they need to follow the convention I outlined above. A person could say that in Minkai, such naming conventions do not follow, but the naming conventions in Minkai are so obviously based on the real-world set of Japanese names that it shatters my suspension of disbelief.
A great way to create names that sound foreign and fantastic to a Japanese person while still remaining "Japanese" is to do what an author named Ono Fuyumi did when she wrote a book called "The Twelve Kingdoms" (Jyuuni Kokki), and create new, previously-unheard of names using the on-yomi (Chinese reading) of kanji. (All kanji have at least two readings, a Japanese one and a Chinese one, both of which, of course, are Japanese, but this is getting complicated.)
For example, for a race of half-animal people, she created the word "Hanjyuu", literally "half-beast", but from a previously unheard of combination of characters. To deviate from tradition in even such little ways is a large leap for the Japanese language and marks the word as sufficiently "separate" from "real" Japanese as to be usable in fantasy, in my opinion.
Creating names in this particular manner, however (if that is the sort of way you wanted to go about it--and there are others), requires quite deep knowledge of Japanese, which is part of why I offered to help in the first place. I do understand how I could have been perceived as rude, though.
Unless a game designer is also a linguist (like Tolkein) who creates languages for each culture (don't hold your breath), they only have two choices for flavor: "borrow" names/words from a real world language or "make up" names/words that "sound similar" to a real world language.
Even in Tolkien's languages, his elven was heavily Welsh-based, his dwarven Hebrew-based, etc.
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Contributor
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Okay, so James Jacobs and I had a nice little chat a few minutes ago. As I've thought about this subject throughout the morning and early afternoon, I have become more inclined to agree with the OP. After my discussion with James I'm fully in favor of using proper Japanese naming conventions for Minkai. We're no experts, so we might get things wrong once in a while, but the effort will be there. Ditto our Arabic-influenced areas, our Chinese-influenced areas, our German-influenced areas, and so on.
I love languages and cultures, so shame on me for not forcefully enforcing this from the get-go. Any errors you detect in the future will be just that: errors.
And with that, I consider this discussion over. Let's all please remember to play nice with one another.
Thanks. :)
I still think we should have named her Hitomi. ^_^
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Creative Director
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Ameiko Kaijitsu is actually a semi-important character in another way... I've actually got an entire adventure path idea bubbling in my head around her and the reasons her family was exiled. And just now, I've actually come up with a cool in-game reason why her name's the way it is (and the names of her father and brother). The short version: the Kaijitsus were kind of "on the run" from Minkai, and when they decided to settle in Magnimar/Sandpoint, they changed their names to a weird Varisian variant/version of their real names as part of the attempt to through pursuit off their trail. This was all several decades ago, and it sort of stuck regionally with them. Having names that can't be spelled in their native tongue is an interesting way of throwing off pursuit and all that.
As for why they fled Minkai, and what the "Ameiko On The Run" adventure path's plot is... it's still WAY too early to say. But this thread has actually helped formulate the plot a little more, so it goes to show that no matter how crazy or heated conversations get here, as long as they stay relatively civil, they're important.
On a somewhat other topic, someone who doesn't understand/speak/write English might be able to do what I did and make up words that SOUND English, but that in translation just make no sense. You wouldn't want to name a Conan type barbarian something like Billypoo, for example, or Lucypot or Teddybump or Butternuts any number of other names that, to someone who doesn't speak the language have the SOUND of legitimacy. But when you attach meaning to them, they're silly, inappropriate, and goofy.
Okay, so James Jacobs and I had a nice little chat a few minutes ago. As I've thought about this subject throughout the morning and early afternoon, I have become more inclined to agree with the OP. After my discussion with James I'm fully in favor of using proper Japanese naming conventions for Minkai. We're no experts, so we might get things wrong once in a while, but the effort will be there. Ditto our Arabic-influenced areas, our Chinese-influenced areas, our German-influenced areas, and so on.
I love languages and cultures, so shame on me for not forcefully enforcing this from the get-go. Any errors you detect in the future will be just that: errors.
And with that, I consider this discussion over. Let's all please remember to play nice with one another.
Thanks. :)
That's really more than I could have hoped for...thank you very much.
I look forward especially to seeing some of the Arabic names.Ameiko Kaijitsu is actually a semi-important character in another way... I've actually got an entire adventure path idea bubbling in my head around her and the reasons her family was exiled. And just now, I've actually come up with a cool in-game reason why her name's the way it is (and the names of her father and brother). The short version: the Kaijitsus were kind of "on the run" from Minkai, and when they decided to settle in Magnimar/Sandpoint, they changed their names to a weird Varisian variant/version of their real names as part of the attempt to through pursuit off their trail. This was all several decades ago, and it sort of stuck regionally with them. Having names that can't be spelled in their native tongue is an interesting way of throwing off pursuit and all that.
That's...incredibly innovative of you. Very impressive! Wow...
As an aside, what about the name "Obiwan Kenobi?"
Obi-Wan's character was, in fact, inspired by a Japanese person. The reason it doesn't bother me is because the people living on Tatooine, or wherever he presumably got his name, are not all Asian and named things like "Ebi-Han Yabura".
It's an oddish name that's actually somewhat further from Japanese than something like "Kaijitsu" or "Ameiko" (which despite their irritating dissimilarity to actual Japanese, come really quite close--kudos on that), and it's attached to an obviously non-Japanese person in a desert setting that obviously bears no relation to Japan, so I never thought to question it...
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Excuse me while I laugh. The SCA is mostly composed of people who want to act "medieval-ish" (as you put it). There is only a small minority of (forgive me if this term offends anyone) "period nazis" who go to great lengths to ensure 100% historical authenticity in something. Heck, there is an entire SCA group based on the Gor novels...
shudder.... just for the record, I don't think the Tuchux (those Gor guys, really consider themselves part of the SCA, they play with us once a year, but we certainly don't claim them.
Unless a game designer is also a linguist (like Tolkein) who creates languages for each culture (don't hold your breath), they only have two choices for flavor: "borrow" names/words from a real world language or "make up" names/words that "sound similar" to a real world language.Even in Tolkien's languages, his elven was heavily Welsh-based, his dwarven Hebrew-based, etc.
The various elven languages that Tolkien created were influenced by the various forms of Gaelic, true. However, someone familiar with one of the Gaelic languages would have similar comments on Sindarin names that you do on Minkai names. The only difference is that Tolkien developed a distinct alphabet, structure, and vocabulary (which took him years, IIRC) instead of just assembling phonemes to create a similar linguistic flavor.
My point is that this "quick and dirty" method is often used to simulate a language with no real world basis. It is not, and should not be, viewed as an attempt to create names/words from a real world culture, following the real world linguistic conventions.
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Exactly my point, vis-a-vis Lex. In Takamori's defense, he was equally interested in, say, Northern European correctness, for which I give him great respect--he's consistently into "correctness" across the board, but commented on the Japanese names as an example because those are the ones he knew best (or at least that's how I came to interpret it).
I definitely take the opposite track than that of Takamori. I feel that fantasy nomenclature shouldn't be beholden to real world examples or conventions. If anything, fantasy nomenclature should be internally consistent with itself--real world examples be damned.
I'm going to try to address this, and I hope I don't come across as pedantic or arrogant.
It's because to make an equivalence, you have to actually do more work on the Japanese side, BECAUSE the naming conventions are, in fact, more complex.
With respect, I have to disagree. With Western names, there are many distinct cultures with their own distinct languages, phonologies and naming conventions. Compare: Einar, Miriam, Alfred, Pierre, Eveshka, Siobhan, Ptolemy, Robert, Flavius, etc.
In European/Western naming conventions, there are two forces at work: the meaning of the name, and the sound of the name, the sound being equivalent to the written form. If I name somebody "Valeros", we can examine whatever possible etymological meaning "Valeros" might have, but as far as the sound and written form go, they are the same.
While the Latin alphabet may be used throughout Western Europe (let’s ignore Greek and Cyrillic and Eastern Europe), the phonemes attributed to each grapheme (or diagraph) of said alphabet vary from language to language. Let’s take the diagraph “ch,” for instance–it means strikingly different things to English, French and German speakers (for a small cross section). “Valeros,” in your example, would have a different sound to different language speakers across Europe.
In Japanese, there are three forces at work: the meaning of the name, the sound of the name, and the written form of the name, ALL OF WHICH ARE WHOLLY SEPARATE ENTITIES. Therein lies the problem. The sound and the written form are not one entity, but two separate entities, both of which must be reconciled with each other to make a name.
Firstly, a “fantasy Asian” culture shouldn’t be beholden to the standard of a single East Asian culture’s language–there is more to East Asia than Japan. Korea, for instance does not use Kanji/Chinese characters. If a fantasy Asian culture is nearly as much as a cultural hodgepodge as fantasy European cultures, then trying to attribute a single real world Asian culture’s naming convention to it would be fallacious when the same is not applied to the fantasy European cultures.
Somebody in America could conceivably name their child "Regdar". They would be considered rather balmy, but they could do it.
Somebody in Japan could NOT, similarly, name their child "Ameiko", because it is impossible to write, unless they decided to write it in syllabic hiragana or katakana ONLY, which is almost never done. It IS done sometimes, but ONLY in the case of names which can also be written in kanji (i.e. I know a woman named Yoshiko whose name is written in katakana only, a rather old-fashioned naming convention used only for women--but Yoshiko COULD have been written in kanji, had her mother/father desired it).
I suppose that a Japanese child named "Ameiko" would be at the same disadvantage as a Japanese child given a Western name (or less depending on the name–try “David”). Not an insurmountable one, however.
One thing to consider, though: You should scour Japanese fantasy–if there are characters that have names that cannot be written in Kanji, then the issue is rather moot.
Therefore, to craft a viable name, the crafter must take one further step in Japanese than in English. This is not because of any cultural entitlement, but because it is a linguistic necessity. You can still, however, create unusual, fantasy-sounding names within the boundaries of this necessity.
Does that...help answer your question?
Not entirely.
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Firstly, a “fantasy Asian” culture shouldn’t be beholden to the standard of a single East Asian culture’s language–there is more to East Asia than Japan. Korea, for instance does not use Kanji/Chinese characters. If a fantasy Asian culture is nearly as much as a cultural hodgepodge as fantasy European cultures, then trying to attribute a single real world Asian culture’s naming convention to it would be fallacious when the same is not applied to the fantasy European cultures.
You're absolutely correct, of course, but Minkai isn't "fantasy Asia." It's "fantasy Japan," so having Japanese-sounding names is correct for it. Other names in Tian Xia will sound Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, or whatever else depending on the real-world analogous culture.
Incidentally, Tian Xia was named by Nick Logue, who is fluent in Mandarin. He knows what it means, but I don't. ;)
shudder.... just for the record, I don't think the Tuchux (those Gor guys) really consider themselves part of the SCA, they play with us once a year, but we certainly don't claim them.
Excuse me while I laugh. The SCA is mostly composed of people who want to act "medieval-ish" (as you put it). There is only a small minority of (forgive me if this term offends anyone) "period nazis" who go to great lengths to ensure 100% historical authenticity in something. Heck, there is an entire SCA group based on the Gor novels...
The SCA is a pretty broad umbrella organization. Actually, I'd prefer playing with the Tuchux than with some of the rhino-hiders that crop up elsewhere. The fact that the Tuchux play at the lower end of the SCA armor minimum helps keep them from calibrating on the Gothic plate end; if I have to dent stainless for someone to take a shot, it's not a good situation.
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You're absolutely correct, of course, but Minkai isn't "fantasy Asia." It's "fantasy Japan," so having Japanese-sounding names is correct for it. Other names in Tian Xia will sound Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, or whatever else depending on the real-world analogous culture.
So how much of an analogue will Minkai be for Japan? You should at least mix it up a bit rather than go for a straight clone.
With respect, I have to disagree. With Western names, there are many distinct cultures with their own distinct languages, phonologies and naming conventions. Compare: Einar, Miriam, Alfred, Pierre, Eveshka, Siobhan, Ptolemy, Robert, Flavius, etc.
While the Latin alphabet may be used throughout Western Europe (let’s ignore Greek and Cyrillic and Eastern Europe), the phonemes attributed to each grapheme (or diagraph) of said alphabet vary from language to language. Let’s take the diagraph “ch,” for instance–it means strikingly different things to English, French and German speakers (for a small cross section). “Valeros,” in your example, would have a different sound to different language speakers across Europe.
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant if you compare Japanese language to any one Western language, not to all of them at once, which is a bit unfair. And even then, the actual process of naming someone still takes three steps in Japanese, not two as any of the names you mentioned do.
And I'm not even trying to dispute the fact that there are many distinct cultures with their own distinct languages, phonologies, and naming conventions in the Western hemisphere.
My point is that whatever phoneme you use, it's exactly that: a phoneme, a unit of sound, not a unit of meaning.
Exactly my point, vis-a-vis Lex. In Takamori's defense, he was equally interested in, say, Northern European correctness, for which I give him great respect--he's consistently into "correctness" across the board, but commented on the Japanese names as an example because those are the ones he knew best (or at least that's how I came to interpret it).I definitely take the opposite track than that of Takamori. I feel that fantasy nomenclature shouldn't be beholden to real world examples or conventions. If anything, fantasy nomenclature should be internally consistent with itself--real world examples be damned.
I'm with you, concept-wise; I still feel that the "mishmash model" (with no historical or linguistic accuracy) has shown itself to be economically self-sustaining, whereas the "purist" systems haven't fared so well. And what's good for the goose is good for the gander. That said, if some of the names in Pathfinder are properly Japanese or just pseudo-Japanese, it shouldn't impact things on the scale of product sales either way. But I do like it an awful lot that Takamori and the Paizo staff are able to comment on the linguistic elements without necessarily descending into a "Japan is better than Europe" situation, which (obviously) sends my blood pressure into the stratosphere.
Firstly, a "fantasy Asian" culture shouldn't be beholden to the standard of a single East Asian culture's language: there is more to East Asia than Japan. Korea, for instance does not use Kanji/Chinese characters. If a fantasy Asian culture is nearly as much as a cultural hodgepodge as fantasy European cultures, then trying to attribute a single real world Asian culture's naming convention to it would be fallacious when the same is not applied to the fantasy European cultures.You're absolutely correct, of course, but Minkai isn't "fantasy Asia." It's "fantasy Japan," so having Japanese-sounding names is correct for it. Other names in Tian Xia will sound Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, or whatever else depending on the real-world analogous culture.
Incidentally, Tian Xia was named by Nick Logue, who is fluent in Mandarin. He knows what it means, but I don't. ;)
"All under heaven?" Nice. I wonder if he enjoyed Hero, too.