Cautiously Optimistic


4th Edition

Sovereign Court

Given the tone of a lot of the posts out there regarding fourth Edition, I'm finding myself cautiously optomistic regarding fourth edition. I suspect part of this is the fact that when it comes to books, I own very little beyond the core books (just Tome of Magic and the Spell Compendium), and a bunch of Paizo adventures.

Thus, I'm not out a lot of money for books, and what extra material I have isn't entirely non-convertable. (Although I'd love to see a 4th Ed take on the binder). More importantly, I've been playing this game long enough to have made FOUR transitions. (Basic to AD&D, AD&D to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, and 3.0 to 3.5). Each and every one (well, possibly aside from the first) has seen a significant step up in quality and understandability. Old classes show up as new, and the rules become clearer each step of the way.

And underneath it all? It's still the same game. Fighting monsters, saving kingdoms, piling up loot and power. Telling each other stories. I look at what the people developing the game are saying, and I find myself thinking 'dang, that's cool'. Sure, I'm nervous, and yeah, it's gonna be a pain to transition something like Burnt Offerings over into 4.0, but y'know what?

I'm buying 4th.

Yeah, the DI makes me a little nervous, but y'know. I don't -have- to sign up for it. And early indicators suggest that some form of the OGL will survive, which means I'll be able to get my Paizo fix. Or just keep my Pathfinder subscription.

On the other hand, I have friends spread out all over the country who play. If the DI is done well, and I can actually -play- with some of these people? That'll be awsome.

So yeah - I'm expecting Awsome, not Doom. And I bet there are others like me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

My group often gets split up because of job assignemnts sending people out of town. This cuts into our sit down sessions considerably. We have dabbled with play-by-post and Fantasy Grounds but haven't had much success. I am looking forward to a user-friendly way to let us play online.

My intention is to check out the core books. I don't buy every product WotC puts out so I'm not too upset about what I've spent so far, although I think I went overboard on the minis. Most of the books or adventures that I have purchased have at least served me as intersting reads or given me inspiration. Luckily my groups has never been one to say "oooh we need the latest feat/gear/spell/prestige class" so our expenditures have been reasonable.

I, too, share your optimism even if it is just a fool's hope....

Sovereign Court

The nice thing about minis is that they'll always be useful. Even if they are just placeholders for something else.

And hey - if we do ever move away from minis, I'm sure my son can use them for army men once he grows up a bit more (he's still likely to try and eat them right now).


I agree with Waltero. It is difficult for me to get a game together. Many of the people I would love to play with again are thousands of miles away from me, and due to circumstances beyond my control I am unable to travel to visit much. I am hopeful that a robust online play support system giving people the feel of a tabletop game will revitalize my gaming experience.


I read the title as "Caustically Optimistic", but then I saw that Sebastian hadn't posted it. ;)

Sean Achterman wrote:

Yeah, the DI makes me a little nervous, but y'know. I don't -have- to sign up for it. And early indicators suggest that some form of the OGL will survive, which means I'll be able to get my Paizo fix. Or just keep my Pathfinder subscription.

On the other hand, I have friends spread out all over the country who play. If the DI is done well, and I can actually -play- with some of these people? That'll be awsome.

Yeah, this is where I eventually ended up. I think most of my initial knee-jerk reaction was due to the quality of WotC's latest books, but I now hope that the quality dropped due to them pulling their talent for 4e.

Being able to play with some of my friends that moved away would be very nice, provided the price isn't too high. I'm interested to see what information WotC's doing to release between now and December.


Sean Achterman wrote:
So yeah - I'm expecting Awsome, not Doom. And I bet there are others like me.

Same here.

I'm actually planning on using 4e as an excuse to simplify. If Paizo is only using limited books due to the OGL, then those are the books I'll need for my campaign.

Easier to carry, cheaper, and less prone to unforeseen, gamebreaking combinations of abilities.

This also has the fringe benefit that if I choose to use RPGXplorer or similar tools, I'm not setting myself up for either frustation or data entry, because these tools will all support the OGL material.

That said, if the DI appears worthwhile, I may kick the tires a bit. But, I don't feel a need to buy books just because Wizards feels the urge to sell them.


Brent Stroh wrote:
But, I don't feel a need to buy books just because Wizards feels the urge to sell them.

What's that I smell? Free market economy?

Sovereign Court

Well, as I alluded to in my intial post, I'm very much a 'core books' sort of player.

I'm very resistant to stuff that shows up in the splatbooks, particularly the Complete Stuff, and some of the more outrageous Prestige Classes. Partly because of game balance, partly due to budget, but mostly because the additional rules and abilities complexify the game and require both players and DM's to remember more.

Most of my players are infrequent up until just recently, and several are completely new. Complex abilities are the last thing we need.

As far as the DI goes... I'm hopeful but wary. They need to get some skilled developers on that, because if they don't, release date is going to be like the announcement, only worse.


I am more than cautiously optimistic...I am very optimistic.

I too have played all versions of the game and each was an improvement. I see no reason why that will not be the case again. I am amazed at the amount of WotC Bashing on some threads, and I suspect many of those posting such comments will buy and love 4E by the time it comes around.

I can;t wait. I have already started selling off several 3e books (and I bought a lot of them).
C


Connors wrote:
I too have played all versions of the game and each was an improvement.

I would concede this point, however, I would argue that the improvement was far less than other games.

Connors wrote:
I am amazed at the amount of WotC Bashing on some threads...

There are many reasons for the 'bashing'. I think the predominant fear is change and the unknown. This is a common fear in all humans and is quite natural.

Connors wrote:
...and I suspect many of those posting such comments will buy and love 4E by the time it comes around.

Agreed. I would add that they will all buy 4.5 when it comes out too.

Connors wrote:
I have already started selling off several 3e books

What do you have? I can pick up some good fluff for half price.


lemme see, will 4th ed be good.... maybe.
my problem is that my 3.5 collection with a value over 10k-
is obsolete. it's obsolete NOW. I don't play 2ed anymore, nor does anyone else I know. So 3.0, 3.5 = garbage can fodder?

"keep playing they say, but Keep buying is what they mean".
nope. I can't. $40 a book isn't worth it when I have to throw it all away for a new rule set SIX MONTHS FROM NOW.
I don't buy computers every year, try once every four/five. but my last D&D purchase was expedition to greyhawk, this month. and it is already obsolete. it's dead. I wasted that money. my character may as well have been a 15 point human commoner.
anybody get my drift?


psyrus wrote:

lemme see, will 4th ed be good.... maybe.

my problem is that my 3.5 collection with a value over 10k-
is obsolete. it's obsolete NOW.

...

anybody get my drift?

Nope. Have you cancelled all gaming sessions until May '08? Or will you somehow muddle through with your obsolete material? It was enough last month. Why is it useless now?

The fact that there's something newer doesn't make all the old ones non-functional or useless. I'd bet there are people here who drive cars without airbags and/or GPS every day. Do newer models offer more/better features? Maybe. However, the cost/benefit analysis of the upgrade hasn't been worth it, for whatever reason.

Given that you've already spent $10K, when would the acceptable time for 4e begin? $12K? $15K? Never?


I will concede that stating all of 3.5 is completely useless is melodramatic, I disagree with your car analogy. I think it would be more appropriate to imagine a world where oil companies started pushing ethanol exclusively. Sure, your car is not useless, it just becomes very difficult to find gas to run it.

O.k. So that analogy lacks a lot too.

Grand Lodge

Brent Stroh wrote:
psyrus wrote:

lemme see, will 4th ed be good.... maybe.

my problem is that my 3.5 collection with a value over 10k-
is obsolete. it's obsolete NOW.

...

anybody get my drift?

Nope. Have you cancelled all gaming sessions until May '08? Or will you somehow muddle through with your obsolete material? It was enough last month. Why is it useless now?

The fact that there's something newer doesn't make all the old ones non-functional or useless. I'd bet there are people here who drive cars without airbags and/or GPS every day. Do newer models offer more/better features? Maybe. However, the cost/benefit analysis of the upgrade hasn't been worth it, for whatever reason.

Given that you've already spent $10K, when would the acceptable time for 4e begin? $12K? $15K? Never?

I'm trying to figure out how you spend $10K on D&D books myself. Buy every single book from 2000 to present, plus a literal ton of miniatures? I'm just not sure.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

psyrus wrote:

lemme see, will 4th ed be good.... maybe.

my problem is that my 3.5 collection with a value over 10k-
is obsolete. it's obsolete NOW. I don't play 2ed anymore, nor does anyone else I know. So 3.0, 3.5 = garbage can fodder?

"keep playing they say, but Keep buying is what they mean".
nope. I can't. $40 a book isn't worth it when I have to throw it all away for a new rule set SIX MONTHS FROM NOW.
I don't buy computers every year, try once every four/five. but my last D&D purchase was expedition to greyhawk, this month. and it is already obsolete. it's dead. I wasted that money. my character may as well have been a 15 point human commoner.
anybody get my drift?

No. Not really.

Ignoring that astounding price tag (holy hells! Did you buy the whole fecking stock of 3e?!?), if you got what you wanted, then it's money well spent. For instance, I began gaming seriously when 3.5 came out. Last year, at GenCon, I spent nearly a hundred dollars on obsolete gaming material, mostly old WoD and 2e D&D. Why? Partly because I'm a compulsive collector, which is why I'm glad I'm out of the country, or else I would've spent a hundred or two more dollars on minis that I never use (I'm still wondering why I got the Red and Black dragon), and partly because it was material that interested me.

Old WoD is out of print. I still play a game when I get the chance. The only sourcebook I bought for the new version is the core book. Keep that in mind.

Liberty's Edge

It's interesting...

I'm certainly not thrilled about the idea of buying all new versions of the core books. I'm not thrilled about having some or all of my Third Edition stuff potentially rendered out dated. I'm REALLy not thrilled at ALL about the fact that Wizards has strongly implied that much of this new online tool set will not work on a Macintosh (way to alienate a large, vocal and creative group of gamers, Wizards!)

Yet ...

From what little I've hear so far, I am also cautiously optimistic about the new version. I mean, although guys like Monte Cooke and Johnathan Tweet are no longer involved, many of the other guys that had a big hand in the Third Edition are involved here as well. Plus, I remember many similar concerns raised when 3E was first announced.

In fact, and this is only my opinion ... I think fewer of us would be as ticked off if they had not taken away our Dragon and Dungeon magazines! I know I am in that camp. If I knew that I could at least go to my trusty issues of Dragon, and to a lesser extent Dungeon, for monthly articles and updates about the new edition, I would have been much more open to the idea. But the fact that they killed the magazines (and no, I do not in any way see the new online versions to be replacements or continuations - the magazines were killed and we have an inferior substitute at best with these online 'magazines') left me with such a terrible taste in my mouth that I was already against Wizards before they even announced 4E.

Anyway, am I happy 4E is coming? Not really. Will I check it out and see what it's about? Sure, why not ... but it is REALLY going to have to knock my socks off!


Agreed, the "death" of the magazines hurt me a lot.
hence my subscription to Kobold quarterly by Wolfgang Baur, Paizo's Game Mastery and Pathfinder... YEAH. I LOVE PATHFINDER!
Am I going to quit d&d because someone insists that we need to stop killing trees and we should just start playing "evercrack", "w.o.t?", or "DDO" online with a limited rule set? broken code and LeWt-PhArMeRz my answer is NO! Screw trees! I mean it. I want my magazines.

ultimately when it comes to 4th ed- toss my collection, and re-buy a new set because shareholders want more money?

HECK NO!


on the cost of my library:Some books cost 25$ each, some 30$ each, some 35$, others $40... I did spot a few new players the soft cover phb set, and on missions in Iraq I often had to rebuild a basic library to play, only to give it to the marines at each cop/fob.
(*MARINES ARE HARD!* Never doubt a Marine's courage. I may be army but I did clear caches with them, 80 kicks at a go.)
I OWN all the books for Kingdoms of Kalamar by Kenzer and co.
I Like sword and sorcery by white wolf.
I bought the mindshadows of Green Ronin.
I bought Iorn kingdoms of Privateer press.
I liked a lot of D20/OGL content.

So yeah, since 2000, 10k$, but will I shell out the clams for 4th? I don't think so... I will likely have to wait until they give a surprise announcement for 4.5 or 5th ed.


Man, I have spent gazillions on all editions of the game, but that is no reason not to look forward to the new edition. If it is better (and it will be) what is the problem?

I don't play computer games, etc, but don;t they cost a lost more than the average dnd book? An also date, get patches, updates, etc.

Divide the time by the $ and I am sure you would all have gotten your $ worth out of 3.5...Compare to a movie ticket.

Besides, All your books ARE NOT obselete. Only the stats are...and those stats still give a very good indication of what to do with a critter/NPC in another addition.

Only the Core Books are really obsolete. All other books have may ideas, concepts, PRC etc that will be able to be adapted. (I actually like adapting, as we already have several things 4E will be introducing).

Books on Undead, Environments, Places, Creatures, etc will not all be obsolete. Many cool encounters still to be used in Libris Mortis, Still MANY good ideas for my desert adventures in Sandstorm, etc

No waste of 1,000;s of dollars at all.

Stats aren' the only reason I buy the books. The ideas are. The last 3 adventures in our 3.5/Saga hybrid have all been 1ST EDITION adventures. The ideas, settings and creatures/NPCs all fit my campaign concept so I used the adventures. Yep, I had to adapt all stats, and wait for it, make up some, like DCs for the skill checks, etc. All part of the fun of DMing in my mind.

Bring on 4E. Bring on a better game. I will see you all here in a year when we all realise it is gamers working on the games and they too want to improve it. Come on May. :)

C


Oh and if you want to worry about the price of a book, try buying one in Australia. It is disgusting. So much so I am considering ordering directly from the States and it will probably still be cheaper after shipping, $ conversions, etc....but then there will be the wait :(

And I too have bought a LOT of dnd books. Again, adding all this up is pointless to me, if the game is better, I will buy it and adapt the old stuff I like.
C

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