With the announcement of D&D 4.0 on shelves this May 2008 I am considering waiting on running the STAP and adapting it. Anyone else feeling the pressure and considering a similar move?
With the announcement of D&D 4.0 on shelves this May 2008 I am considering waiting on running the STAP and adapting it. Anyone else feeling the pressure and considering a similar move?
Heck no. The Paizo people go to all the trouble to stat up all this interesting stuff in 3.5 so that I don't have to (I hate to be one of those guys who says he uses prefab stuff primarily because he no longer has time for stat blocks ... but there you are). I'm not averse to playing a little 3.5 (or a lot of 3.5) while "4dventure" gets its act together. Then again, I've been known to bust out the 1980's box set (green dragon in the water, guy with spear, girl w/ magic orb...) and "The Keep on the Borderlands" or "The Lost City" to play with non-d&d players, so maybe I don't count. The system engine isn't a big thing to me or my players - we start with the story, and we'll pick the engine to fit it. STAP is 3.5 - and, unlike a lot of what is out there, GOOD 3.5.
I've already made up my mind not to buy any more of the half-dozen plus WotC 3.5E books that I had on my shopping list for at/after Dragon*Con. I've already purchased 29 hardbound WotC books since going from 3rd Ed to 3.5 and I see no reason to effectively waste several hundred dollars on new ones when they going to make me trade up to what is effectively a new operating system — one without an upgrade discount.
With that said, the next campaign that I had wanted to run (I've been DMing Red Hand of Doom since Nov 2006) was Savage Tide. My players and I have all been itching to do something on the high seas and from what I've seen in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, I think that would be the best choice. (I’ll admit, reading the conclusion in the final issue of Dungeon put me in a happy place.)
Being as my group is painfully slow (the party has just entered the Ghostlord's lair after all this time) July of 2008 sounds about right for the start of a new campaign. I don't expect RHoD will take THAT long to conclude but it would be nice to run a homebrewed adventure or two after finishing off Tiamat.
As for the 3-month release period, I figure the two months between when the 4E PHB and the 4E MM come out will give my players enough time to get their characters created while I retool ST for 4E and update my Excel character/party database and Word character templates to the new edition.
So how long will it be until the STAP comes out in a single volume? Also Paizo, if You release a PDF version of STAP, is there any chance of making the proper names (particularly for political/geographical features) customizable? (I noticed that 0oneGames has a certain degree of customization available in their PDFs.) After the dozens of hours of scratching names and Photoshopping maps in RHoD to fit it into my campaign world, I wouldn't hesitate to pay a premium if it would save me all that time.
Something else to think about:
In terms of product insurance, has Paizo considered offering 4E update supplements for their flagship 3.5 products? What better way to take advantage of the dearth of official adventures when any new system launches than to be able to step up as the premier outlet for premade adventure content by reincarnating the excellent work You’ve already authored. From the few replies here so far it doesn't look like I'd be the only buyer...
I don't know about this. Savage Tide is really compelling story-wise; I don't see how 4E changes could make all that much difference. Really I think this boils down to a combination of how good 4E turns out to be and how much time you have to convert.
I can say for sure that running STAP in 3.5 will be fun.
Why wait for a year running one of the best STAP/camapaigns there are for 3.5 ? And then having to re-stat, convert and adapt (changed mechanics may make some encounters run very different ) everything to 4.0 ?
your call, but I fail to see any compelling reasons
4E updating goodness eh ? I hazard a guess that this largely is dependant upon the presence, or lack thereof, of some form or flavor of an OGL. If there is not an OGL for 4E, I think the gentlecritters of Paizo are bound hand and foot regarding updating thier previously published materials to 4e.
Not to mention, they simply may not have the time to even blink at such a task.
Why wait for a year running one of the best STAP/camapaigns there are for 3.5 ? And then having to re-stat, convert and adapt (changed mechanics may make some encounters run very different ) everything to 4.0 ?
your call, but I fail to see any compelling reasons
1)- I'm in the middle of running a campaign right now that isn't going to be ending anytime soon. However, the STAP looks like it would be a lot of fun and I'd like to run it at some point.
2)- The computer jockey in me is compelled to do the hands-on with the new tech (i.e. 4E) via trial by fire before the rest of his friends so as to assay the situation for others he knows locally. Yes, I'm running Vista right now. No a new version wasn't really needed. Still I actually rather like what they've done with things (though I still wouldn't have bought it for several more months on my own if my last machine hadn't gotten fried in the middle of a deadline).
3)- When experimenting with something new, You need a factor that has not changed (i.e. a control set) to limit the variables You are solving for. In this case, the variables would be: players, DM, rules & adventure/ module. Since I want to evaluate the rules most accurately, I'll DM for the same group of players a module that is known to play well so that I can isolate the strength of the rules. This is the same reason why, when playtesting my own extensive mods of 3.5, I ran a published adventure rather than a homebrew — I needed a known variable for that.
4)- For some people, deriving a compelling plot and character personalities takes far longer than converting monsters and encounters. You don't have to look around these boards for long to see others who will say the same thing. I myself like to spend a couple weeks creating a character (or major NPC) so that I fully know them. My own homebrews are quite rich but the amount of time it requires to prepare something brand new while learning a new version of the game would simply be overwhelming. (Well unless I quit my job, cancelled my contracts and withdrew from the world I suppose.)
interesting reasons - even if they are not convincing to my mind, although I admit that is a matter of POV... Simply because a lot of material in the STAP relies on the Splat-books, Fiendish Codices, MMs 2-4. there is even stuff from the "Tome of Magic".
Material a GM will have to convert by hand and "rule of thumb" estimates, until the corresponding 4th edition sourcebooks are out... 4+ years hence, if the original publishng shedule is any hint ?
Which basically means, you will not test the validity of 4th edition rules, but the servicability of your "conversion " and prediction of them. So, you really have an unknown number of variables affecting the "quality" of 4th edition, e.g. each of your personal adaptions and transfers into 4.0
If things can even be converted - if the WotC statement of "mechanisms tested in "BoNS" will be at the heart of 4th edition" holds true, you will have the fun to convert each and every melee combatant into a maneuvre-based system applicable version....
Considering I've been able to convert faithful versions of my own excessively complex characters and campaigns through-out the editions (2nd Ed to Skills & Powers to 3rd Ed to 3.5) I'm not overly worried about that point. For me, the strengths of a system fall mainly on the how well the combat system handles (i.e. speed of play & believability).
Remember, it's not like I would have to try converting Demogorgon to 4.0 before the 1st session. As I recall the APs all begin with low-level characters. So just as the players learn their characters by starting at 1st with a scant few abilities and figuring out how to best employ them, so too would I expect a DM to be up to their task.
In any event, even "testing my conversion" as You say would give me a very good idea about how the new system compares actually. (i.e. That doesn't negate anything for me.) My main point about the adventure/module variable is that the STAP is a "known fun" if You'll allow the term.
what can I say except "good luck" ?
and anyway, my initial post was aimed at "jib"s OP
Well heres my thoughts...
I think we can all agree that STAP is fantastic (IMO it is the best adventure path to date). This series of advetnures is both griping and exciting. It can hold the interest of a DM and group of like-minded players.
So if you decide to try the 4th Edition why not start off with a great campaign setting/ path? Yeah it would involve some work but then we have all metnioned on the messageboards that you will have to adapt the campaign to fit your own style. Why not convert it completely and tweak it as you like?
From what I am hearing 4e with have an OGL so Paizo could adapt it (but it would be a time costing venture). The 4e game is also supposed to remain d20 which might keep conversions to a miminal (I did it all the time between 3.0 and 3.5). I have mentioned a Savage Tide Light on these threads that would reach an earilier conclusion. I also need a story driven campaign for my group, hack in slash they do not like!
I'm about 8 to 10 monthes away from starting a new campaign and I want it to be the Savage Tide. I plan to tinker about with Star Wars Saga edition and watch the 4e develope. Perhaps I will run it 4e if I like what I see. If not, I own all the books for 3.5, it would be a no problem to run it with just minor changes to fit my vision and style.
Just my view-
Another thing to consider is some modules/campaigns hold their own and have great staying power. Consider Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil by Monte Cook. That came out in midst of 3E and had such a following that it was converted by fans to 3.5 with many people still playing it today (my group included). Savage Tide seems to have the capability to last into 4E and perhaps even gaining such a cult status. Play it now or play it later or both!
From what I have seen so far, 4e simply appears to be a rehash of everything we already have in 3.5, with some mechanical tweaks here and there. Not worth purchasing IMO.
The digital stuff on the WotC site doesn't interest me a lot, as I enjoy playing with my friends in person, not over the internet. I use WoW for that.
The 3.5 core mechanics work just fine for my group, and of course we are constantly adding house rules to make it fit our group even better. ie, we don't use alignments anymore or any ability that relies on alignment.
We are half way through STAP and the group loves it, even though we have one player who has a permanent boner for 4e, and makes a point of mentioning how great it will be each session :P
I am much more interested in incorporating some other d20 based rules into my campaigns, like Iron Heroes and Green Ronin's True Sorcery magic system.
I feel my money is better spent at Paizo these days. The Pathfinder series looks fantastic, and the critical hit deck has gotten my players putting keen on their weapons just so they have more chances to draw a critical hit card.