So I noticed something mising in the final battle against Demogorgon. After going on and on about his divided nature for so long, and how the Savage Tide is the plan of one head to absorb the other, I thought it a mistake to ignore that in the final scene.
Its set up as yet another battlefest, but isnt this a more interesting opportunity for the 20th level Bard/Diplomat to reveal to one head, the others plans to destroy it? Sure one half of Demogorgon wants the Savage Tide, but the other half has a very serious investment in not letting it go ahead. Having the two heads and arms battle over the master pearl should be as much an option as the PC's battling a united Demogorgon.
Thoughts.
SJE
I submit the possibility that this is the very thing Malcanthet whispers to Demogorgon, the results of which are one of five things that has a dramatic impact on Demogorgon's motivation. If one of the PCs can do the job, then there's no need for Malcanthet and the PCs can safely throw her out on her... ear.
So I noticed something mising in the final battle against Demogorgon. After going on and on about his divided nature for so long, and how the Savage Tide is the plan of one head to absorb the other, I thought it a mistake to ignore that in the final scene.
Its set up as yet another battlefest, but isnt this a more interesting opportunity for the 20th level Bard/Diplomat to reveal to one head, the others plans to destroy it? Sure one half of Demogorgon wants the Savage Tide, but the other half has a very serious investment in not letting it go ahead. Having the two heads and arms battle over the master pearl should be as much an option as the PC's battling a united Demogorgon.
Thoughts. Excellent question SJE, I thought the same thing as well but I did however love If Malcanthet bonds with one of the PC's to deliver a harsh blow of betrayal whispered Into Demogorgon's ear. Getting dumped Abyssal style, she's such a slut! Or even better with what you were saying above to pit the two heads against each other, have the bonded PC whisper Into one ear(for only one head to hear It),making the other head Incredibly jealous so Jealous that the Big D will start attacking himself.
DAveSJE
Honestly, I think this should be the *only* way for the PCs to survive Demogorgon. Some creatures just aren't meant to be defeated in physical combat.
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Honestly, I think this should be the *only* way for the PCs to survive Demogorgon. Some creatures just aren't meant to be defeated in physical combat.
Yeah, I always hated the "lets take on a god and plan on winning" aspect of D&D. Gods should be able to just leave or kill you without even a thought. I know this isn't really the same thing but it's close enough. I remember a buddy of mine bought Dieties and Demigods for 1st? edition and went through the book with an eye towards who he wanted to take on. I went through the book thinking that they would whup my PC's arse. Not everything should be beatable in combat.
FH
Its set up as yet another battlefest, but isnt this a more interesting opportunity for the 20th level Bard/Diplomat to reveal to one head, the others plans to destroy it? Sure one half of Demogorgon wants the Savage Tide, but the other half has a very serious investment in not letting it go ahead. Having the two heads and arms battle over the master pearl should be as much an option as the PC's battling a united Demogorgon.Thoughts.
SJE
I would argue that Demogorgon already knows that it's other head hates it and wants to see it destroyed. Were the PCs to attempt something like that in my game, I would just have Demogorgon laugh, and say something along the lines of, "Thank you for telling us about our betrayal. Once we have destroyed you all, we will have to do something about that."
It also comes down to the whole "enemy of my enemy. Both heads have the PCs as enemies, so they will work together inorder to survive to try to kill themselves later."
As for taking on a god, while full fledged gods should only be able to be defeated by another full-fledged gods, Demogordon is not a god, at best he is a demi-god, and they do have some limits.
I happen to be of the school of thought that if the players come up with something clever on their own, I want to reward that. Let them make some epic diplomacy roll or something to turn the heads against each other. Heck, they are already recruiting demons from all over Hell to turn against Demogorgon, why not turn him against himself? And, getting back to the point of the original post, it’s already said in print that his dual nature is his Achilles’ heal – you have to at least acknowledge it. If the PCs think of a way to exploit Demogorgon’s weakness, by all means at least entertain the notion. Sure, an epic battle is a great ending, but so is the brilliant moment of clarity. Indian Jones picking the right cup. Luke defeating the Emperor by appealing to his father’s good side. Bastian giving a new name to The Childlike Empress. Sometimes a “good idea” is a better way to end a story than just surviving a battle.
You know, the more I think about it, it’s simpler than I said above. Look, the guy has TWO HEADS. What’s the point of him having two heads if you can’t turn them against each other?
Heh, grab a helm of alighnment change and force it on one of the heads......
I happen to be of the school of thought that if the players come up with something clever on their own, I want to reward that. Let them make some epic diplomacy roll or something to turn the heads against each other. Heck, they are already recruiting demons from all over Hell to turn against Demogorgon, why not turn him against himself? And, getting back to the point of the original post, it’s already said in print that his dual nature is his Achilles’ heal – you have to at least acknowledge it. If the PCs think of a way to exploit Demogorgon’s weakness, by all means at least entertain the notion. Sure, an epic battle is a great ending, but so is the brilliant moment of clarity. Indian Jones picking the right cup. Luke defeating the Emperor by appealing to his father’s good side. Bastian giving a new name to The Childlike Empress. Sometimes a “good idea” is a better way to end a story than just surviving a battle.
Heck, even if you wanted to get the best of both worlds its possible. The adventure already assumes a certain number of negative levels based on how demoralized he is.... so if anything have him attack himself and gain a few more as a worn down kind of mechanic. These can replace missed oppurtunities to demoralize him or even further do so that he is nowhere the awesome force he would be otherwise. That's just my take, and kind of the best of both worlds.
With an entity like Demogorgon I've always had the philosophy that it does these things (i.e. acting against itself) to stave off the ennui of its endless existence.
And as many well know, this is not the first time one of the heads has hatched a scheme against the other one. For this very reason I think many shrewd DMs have thought of ways to introduce the Cathezar and Nurn into this AP. Into the Maw is ideal for their involvement as is Wells of Darkness.
...And as many well know, this is not the first time one of the heads has hatched a scheme against the other one. For this very reason I think many shrewd DMs have thought of ways to introduce the Cathezar and Nurn into this AP. Into the Maw is ideal for their involvement as is Wells of Darkness.
Um, sorry, you completely lost me.
The Cathezar is a half-kyton/half-marilith (that's right, a half demon/devil) created by Demogorgon as an experiment. She was introduced in the 3.0 WotC adventure path (the last module, I believe, Bastion of Broken Souls).
*edit* Hey, found a picture!
I don't know who Nurn is.
I tried to work The Cuckoo in, though (same AP as the Cathezar, he was a vrock bard)
The Cathezar is a half-kyton/half-marilith (that's right, a half demon/devil) created by Demogorgon as an experiment. She was introduced in the 3.0 WotC adventure path (the last module, I believe, Bastion of Broken Souls).
*edit* Hey, found a picture!
That is a wicked cool, but disturbing pics thanks!
...And as many well know, this is not the first time one of the heads has hatched a scheme against the other one. For this very reason I think many shrewd DMs have thought of ways to introduce the Cathezar and Nurn into this AP. Into the Maw is ideal for their involvement as is Wells of Darkness.Um, sorry, you completely lost me.
Sorry, my bad. I was referencing Bastion of Broken Souls, a 3.0 adventure for 18th level PCs written by Bruce Cordell. Two of the primary characters are the Cathezar, a half-demon/half-devil assassin working for the Aamuel head and Nurn, a death slaad rogue who works for the Hethradiah head.
I could easily see a disaffected Cathezar as a prisoner in Into the Maw or an agent of Malcanthet in Wells of Darkness. Nurn is even easier to work in since the Savage Tide is Hethradiah's pet project.
I was thinking along these lines, but we are still in SWW, so this is a long time away. It depends on how many XP my players have then. They tend to skip things and sometimes miss out on XP.