Hey folks I need opinions for my group has come up with another question...
Do hobgoblins as a PC race get screwed on their level adjustment???
Now don't get me wrong I think any race that has improved stats (+2 Dex, +2 Con) and no negative stat mods is maybe a partial reason to give a PC race a +1 LA. However when comparted to other PC races such as Planetouched and especially the Catfolk,(a personal favorite) it just seems that they get hose.
Lets compart the Planetouched, just the Assimar and the Teifling from the MM -
Improved stats +2Dex,+2Int,-2Cha Teifling
+2Wis,+2Cha Assmair
Resistance 5 to three different energy types
Darkvsion 60 ft.
Spell-like ability 1/day
+2 racial bonus on two skills
The Hobgoblin
+2Dex,+2Con
Darkvision 60 ft.
+4 racial bouns to Move Silently
Now how is the even comparable??
And now the even more unbalanced PC Level +1 Adjustment
Catfolk
+4Dex, +2Cha
low-light vision
+2 to Listen and Move Silently
+1 Natural Armor
Now come on the Catfolk has a natural armor bonus and +4Dex! I usually play a rogue when I play a Catfolk, but still +1 NA. The Hobgoblin is a military race if anyone should have N.Armor its them. Some in my group have said that the Catfolk's NA makes up for the no darkvision. Thats fine, but +4Dex to a physical stat come on. And now that I am thinking about the Goliath gets +4Str,-2Dex, and +2Con and has Powerful Build and is only a +1 LA. WTF!
I am I wrong or is the hobgoblin getting screwed? Are these the ramblings of madman with to much time on his hands...maybe, but thats not the point. The point is that hobgoblins are getting hosed....
Your thoughts......
Any LA race gets hosed. Hobgoblins get it worse than the others, is all.
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Hobgoblins are a borderline case re the level adjustment. I would be inclined to ignore it - after all, they get good stats, darkvision, and a bonus to Move Silently, and that really is it. i don't see that as dramatically out of whack with some of the RAW races - dwarves get piles of goodies, for example, on a par with that.
I can see the justification for the +1 LA, but we played a hobgoblin in my campaign, effectively eliminating the LA, and he was far from unbalanced. The only issue that might arise - when you have a hobgoblin available, who the hell would want to play a half-orc?
Someone who wants to max. their Str without a level adjustment, although orc would be better, if you don't mind the Wis penalty. Wood elf could work, but they get a Con penalty.
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Yes, but if you want a tough, savage warrior type, a hobgoblin is tough to beat: +2 CON and DEX is hard to beat. And a net + 4 to basic stats instead of a net -2. A half-oc is inferior mechanically - after all, with DEX and CON sorted for you, you can max out STR to your heart's content.
That said, at least in 3E, hobgoblins and orcs "feel" different in tone and colour, so a half-orc is still valid from an RP perspective.
Hobgoblins are a little too good to be LA +0, but not quite good enough to be LA +1. I'm inclined to give them a hit dice of Humanoid when used as a PC race and remove the LA - this gives them a few hit points, a couple of skills, and a slight boost to saves, but is considerably weaker than a full level of a PC class.
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Hobgoblins are a little too good to be LA +0, but not quite good enough to be LA +1.
That is the basic problem with hobnobs. Personally, I'd just ignore the LA as it's unlikely you'll get a hobgoblin in every party for non-mechanical reasons. (I'd do the same with some of the other monstrous humanoids, like gnolls for example - those two monster levels are hindrance sufficient to balance out the better stats.)
I had a player with a hobbo ranger in a long term campaign and the LA really began to hurt around 5th level or so. After looking at the Feature Points (this chart i d'led from WoTC, homebrew LA calculator) it came up that hobbos get 14 feature points, while gnomes get 15. dwarves get like 12. According to the designer of this chart, LA should start around 16 FP. The WoTC guideline is the unbalanced stat adjustments add an LA, but in this case. I allow hobbos as a non LA race in my games.
Contributor
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Here's what I would do; Give the the hobgoblin a mechanical social disadvantage that makes sense, like all core race npcs start one attitude category worse than normal, then ditch the LA. Basically, your quantifying the RP challenge that should exist in most campaigns for playing a hobgoblin.
Might not work for all settings though. Like Eberron.
And if it makes people never play half-orcs, all the better!
FP Chart-
Linky
Or google DnD Feature points and it'll take you to the thread on the WoTC boards.
I have had exactly one person EVER play a 1/2 orc. Which is fine with me :)
Hobgoblins are a little too good to be LA +0, but not quite good enough to be LA +1.
Exactly right.
I'm inclined to give them a hit dice of Humanoid when used as a PC race and remove the LA - this gives them a few hit points, a couple of skills, and a slight boost to saves, but is considerably weaker than a full level of a PC class.
That's an interesting possibility. I'd have to playtest it a little to see if it really works, but I like the idea.
Hobgoblins are a little too good to be LA +0, but not quite good enough to be LA +1. I'm inclined to give them a hit dice of Humanoid when used as a PC race and remove the LA - this gives them a few hit points, a couple of skills, and a slight boost to saves, but is considerably weaker than a full level of a PC class.
Sounds like an excellent call to me. Should even things out nicely.
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FP Chart-
LinkyOr google DnD Feature points and it'll take you to the thread on the WoTC boards.
I have had exactly one person EVER play a 1/2 orc. Which is fine with me :)
I looked over the stuff and find that I am sorely lacking in the mental department. Can someone please explain to me how a human would breakdown into the Feature Point chart and what their final score would be? I can't seem to get the numbers to work out. I would like to do up all the PHB races and a few MM1 races and see what I would like to adjust for a future campaign. Help me, Ender 1. Your my only hope.
FH
you could also supplant the LA +1 with a 30% xp penalty per level. Make them LA +0 with the penalty and this starts looking slightly more attractive (at lower levels anyway, its not so good at higher levels). Of course, I agree with you to a point, hobgoblins should perhaps be a bit better than they are.
Hobgoblins are weak for their level adjustment, even more so than the planetouched. They're made that way so that people can play them if they really want, but they're not so good a choice that they compete with the main races for popularity.
If you want hobgoblins to be a player option, I'd put it on the same sort of level. The trouble is that you have to do +2 to one ability score and -2 to another, and hobgoblins are the kind of creatures to excel in all areas - they aren't uncharismatic for any reason, they're intelligent strategists, they're not unwise, they're not weak in terms of Strength. Dex is the best stat so a race which has +2 Dex and -2 to only Cha, you're screwing over the elves who have to pay Con.
Hobgoblins are a little too good to be LA +0, but not quite good enough to be LA +1. I'm inclined to give them a hit dice of Humanoid when used as a PC race and remove the LA - this gives them a few hit points, a couple of skills, and a slight boost to saves, but is considerably weaker than a full level of a PC class.Sounds like an excellent call to me. Should even things out nicely.
One problem with this fellas- 1st level skill points and hit points. Humanoid only gets (2+Int)x4 per hd, yeah? Any hobbo player who wanted to make a rogue would be screwed.
FP Chart-
LinkyOr google DnD Feature points and it'll take you to the thread on the WoTC boards.
I have had exactly one person EVER play a 1/2 orc. Which is fine with me :)
I looked over the stuff and find that I am sorely lacking in the mental department. Can someone please explain to me how a human would breakdown into the Feature Point chart and what their final score would be? I can't seem to get the numbers to work out. I would like to do up all the PHB races and a few MM1 races and see what I would like to adjust for a future campaign. Help me, Ender 1. Your my only hope.
FH
Ha. Ok, go to the WoTC boards and look up the name yabbathewhat. He's the guy who posted this thing. In his megathread, he has statted out many if not most, of the more common LA critters. Humans, IIRC, end up doing pretty well, in the range of 10-11 FP. linky
One problem with this fellas- 1st level skill points and hit points. Humanoid only gets (2+Int)x4 per hd, yeah? Any hobbo player who wanted to make a rogue would be screwed.Hobgoblins are a little too good to be LA +0, but not quite good enough to be LA +1. I'm inclined to give them a hit dice of Humanoid when used as a PC race and remove the LA - this gives them a few hit points, a couple of skills, and a slight boost to saves, but is considerably weaker than a full level of a PC class.Sounds like an excellent call to me. Should even things out nicely.
I was thinking of adding a racail HD to the hobgoblin and making them a junior bugbear of sorts, but like was stated above hobby rogues would get screwed. And yes i know hobgblins are more inclinced to be fighters than anything else, but from a PC viewpoint it does really screw the player that wants to be a rogue or any class with several skills ranger, bard, etc...
I think I would be inclined to just ignore the LA like Aubury stated.
The half-orc is an excellent PC race, espicailly if u want to play Barbarian/Frenzied Berseker. In the Races of Destiny the feat Channeled Rage(pg150) allows u to expand one of the use of your rage to gain a bouns equal to your Str score and add it to your will saves, if your F.Berseker and need to end the frenzy then that is sure to help.
I would also like to added something to the hobby's stats to make them worthy of a +1 LA. What do think would be a good addition:
+2 natural armor or
+2 Str or
.....
something else because i can't think of anything at this because i am brain-dead....
Adding +2 Str feels more "right" to me than +2 natural armor. That would also make them definitely worth the +1 LA, but perhaps not so much that they are unplayable. I'd either do that, or ignore the LA all together.
Would a proficiency in shields (all except Tower) be too much? Or not enough? Maybe some kind of bonus for fighting in formation? They are a structured military race. Their upbringing wouldn't be unlike a very long boot-camp.
Perhaps even a bonus when using a shield. I wouldn't go any higher than a +1. It might make those shield feats in PHB2 worth another look. Give them a PRC and they might start turning up in more groups...
If you want to make them a viable player character race, I think you could give them +2 Str AND +1 natural armour, and still be somewhat within the upper boundaries of LA +1. I'd probably give them just the Strength bonus if you're worried of making them too good.
Statistically, +1 level adjustment on a fightery race is worth one fighter level, equivalent to +0.6 to Fort, +0.3 to Reflex and +0.3 to Will, +1 to attack and one fifth of an extra attack, +1 to a few skills, +5.5 and a bit hit points, and about half a fighter bonus feat.
A +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con race will give you +1 to hit and melee damage, +1 to AC, +1 to Fort and Reflex, +1AC, and +1HP/level. Compared to a fighter level you're short some skill points, a potential feat and one fifth of the way to an extra iterative attack. However, compared to a fighter level you're up +1 AC, +1 melee damage and two-thirds a bonus to Reflex saves; you lose one-third of a point to Will but gain it back on Fort.
This looks good, but remember that we should balance it based on an existing race, such as human, who would get bonus skill points and a feat. When you factor that in, hobgoblin power-balanced a +1 level adjustment.
Dood, thats too much math :) I'm gonna llow them as a no LA race in my next campaign and see what happens. If they are over powered, rocks will fall :)
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Here's what I would do; Give the the hobgoblin a mechanical social disadvantage that makes sense, like all core race npcs start one attitude category worse than normal, then ditch the LA. Basically, your quantifying the RP challenge that should exist in most campaigns for playing a hobgoblin.
Might not work for all settings though. Like Eberron.
And if it makes people never play half-orcs, all the better!
Agree that +1LA is too much. The RP penalties should be key. Making the hobbo's player go sit in the driveway every time the party enters a tavern and the "civilized" humans don't let him in the door would be much more cruel than a measly LA.
Tom
Dood, thats too much math :) I'm gonna llow them as a no LA race in my next campaign and see what happens. If they are over powered, rocks will fall :)
They are over powered, but only a little bit.
If you want to make them a viable player character race, I think you could give them +2 Str AND +1 natural armour, and still be somewhat within the upper boundaries of LA +1. I'd probably give them just the Strength bonus if you're worried of making them too good.
Statistically, +1 level adjustment on a fightery race is worth one fighter level, equivalent to +0.6 to Fort, +0.3 to Reflex and +0.3 to Will, +1 to attack and one fifth of an extra attack, +1 to a few skills, +5.5 and a bit hit points, and about half a fighter bonus feat.
A +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con race will give you +1 to hit and melee damage, +1 to AC, +1 to Fort and Reflex, +1AC, and +1HP/level. Compared to a fighter level you're short some skill points, a potential feat and one fifth of the way to an extra iterative attack. However, compared to a fighter level you're up +1 AC, +1 melee damage and two-thirds a bonus to Reflex saves; you lose one-third of a point to Will but gain it back on Fort.
This looks good, but remember that we should balance it based on an existing race, such as human, who would get bonus skill points and a feat. When you factor that in, hobgoblin power-balanced a +1 level adjustment.
Thank You Mr. Drain for the math stats. I was looking at the NPC town guards for a campagin that i had made and reviewed a quick hobgoblin regular that I had for a game I am in now.
While the human receives the extra attack for being a 6th lvl fighter his second attack hardly hits vs. the hobgoblin hitting somewhere in the ballpark of 7-10 times on his attack.
I think that giving the hobgoblin a +2 Str improvements more than warrants a LA in addition to there other stats with this added in. The +1 Natural Armor is something I will have to think about because this then gives the hobbe a +2 to AC in addition to the +1hp/lvl and the +1 to Atk and Dam.
This requires more thinking and beer consumption on my part.... to all of you who contributed thank u for your ideas and facts....