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For RAW, you can go to this d20 encounter calculator and figure it out on your own. When I put in what you have above, I come up with an EL of 10. That might be a little light depending on how well equipped the party is, but it is at least a starting point.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Here are the baddies:
21 generic lizardfolk
3 Warrrior1 lizardfolk
1 Fighter3 lizardfolkWhat do y'all think? The RAW about CR seem to break down with these large numbers.
(edited for table misreading!)
I'm assuming you mean EL. It does break down, partially because hordes of foes tend to either be so weak relative to the party they are ineffective, or so dangerous en masse that it's a slaughter. Lizardfolk tend towards the 1st.
18 lizard folk, if the table continued, would be EL 9. Even though you're higher than that, I wouldn't be inclined to bump it to EL 10.
The warrior 1s are a problem, it's a weak spot in the formula. I'd call them CR 2, or EL 5 for 3, comparing with EL 3 for 3 normal folk. You could technically make them Ftr1 or War2 for the same EL, though, so I'd estimate this as close to EL 4.
1 fighter 3 is easy, it s CR 4, so one is EL 4.
Continuing on, EL 4 + EL 4 is EL 6. Add this to EL 9, and you get an EL of 10, but a weak EL 10. A higher-end estimate would put it at EL 11, but as lizardfolk are a pretty weak creature, I think it's safe to assume that 10's a good EL, and probably overly generous at that. The ease of defeating them will depend on how much the party relies on area damage and high ACs, either of which make the fight a cakewalk. This sounds a lot like Encounter at Blackwall Keep, which was bloody easy.
Here are the baddies:
21 generic lizardfolk
3 Warrrior1 lizardfolk
1 Fighter3 lizardfolkWhat do y'all think? The RAW about CR seem to break down with these large numbers.
TIA,
Tom
A minor quibble. Creatures have Challenge Ratings (CR), Encounters, which are composed of 1 or more creatures, have Encounter Levels (EL), which includes not only a composite of the CRs of the creatures in the encounter, but also accounts for other factors, such as terrain, that make the encounter more or less difficult. Something only an editor would care about. :)
Anyway, yes, the system for calculating ELs breaks down when you have more than about 10 creatures in an encounter. Just eyeballing that, I would think it would be modestly challenging for a 6th-level party, somewhat tough for 5th-level, and quite difficult for 4th-level, so I'd peg it at EL 6 (maybe 7, but not more than that).
While EL 10 might be closer based on the formula in the DMG, a 10th-level party would absolutely obliterate these guys, and probably wouldn't get scratched while they were doing it.
Agree with Jeremy. EL 10 may be what the calculator says, but the calculator doesn't apply logic to this sort of equation (which is why I don't use it). Even a 10th-level party without an arcane spellcaster would waltz through these lizardfolk unless there were extenuating circumstances (which the calculator also doesn't take into account).
Knowing the level of the PCs might help us determine whether this encounter is too tough or not as well.
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First a note on the Warriors: NPC classes are always treated as non-associated and 1 level is less than the number of hit dice of the base creature, so the Warrior levels count 1/2. Since an EL 4 encounter is three CR1s or three CR2s, this seems the right number to me for that portion of the encounter.
As to the large number of CR1 creatures, I'm not sure I'd increase the CR from the nominal 8 for 10-12. (If anything, I'd reduce it if the characters are above 8th level, since they don't get any experience for CR1 creatures anyway.)
So, a 4, a weak 5, and an 8 (or less). I'd put that at around an EL 8, and certainly no higher than an EL 9.
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In a sense, I wouldn't worry too much about the EL if you are concerned about how much xp the encounter will generate - you can simply tot up the individual xp's from each monster's CR from the table in the DMG and divide by the number of PCs.
If you are assessing the danger level of the encounter, the EL is pretty meaningless with a group this size. In fact, to save yourself the bother, you could consider using the Mobs rules in the DMG 2, which effectively abstract the problem by turning said mass of individual monsters into a sort of swarm, which is much easier to handle for the DM. However, mobs can be considerably tougher than the basic monster.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I agree with Jeremy here. A 10th-level party could wipe out the entire group with one cloudkill and the lizardfolk wouldn't even get a save (since they all have less than 5 HD). Fireball would also almost certainly clear the board (since, at 10th level, you're dishing out 10d6 with it). EL 6 seems accurate. EL 7 if the party lacks an arcane caster.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I agree with Jeremy here. A 10th-level party could wipe out the entire group with one cloudkill and the lizardfolk wouldn't even get a save (since they all have less than 5 HD). Fireball would also almost certainly clear the board (since, at 10th level, you're dishing out 10d6 with it). EL 6 seems accurate. EL 7 if the party lacks an arcane caster.
ELs don't vary by the makeup of the party, so I'd object to that method of setting difficulty. In general, it's best to not base your encounter assessments on the possibility of certain spells being used. Spells are resources, for one thing, and you wind up making way too many assumptions about the arrangement of field of battle, lack of surprise, and winning of initiative. It's better to compare damage output of the foes with their staying power. In the case of large numbers of weak foes, you do have an issue with staying power, but it is somewhat offset by large number of attacks, particularly if you don't start the fight by grouping the enemy out in the open in a tight cluster (which isn't a very logical starting arrangement for lizardfolk).
At any rate, I wouldn't be comfortable rating 26 (or so) lizardfolk at a lower EL than 12 get by the charts (EL 8). Even if lizardfolk are something a weak CR 1, they're still better than that.
In closing, don't fall into the trap of thinking that EL = APL is supposed to be a tough fight. It's not, it's supposed to be a more or less automatic win for the party. An "even match" for a party of 4 6th level PCs would be EL 10. So yeah, I'd expect a party of 4x9th level to thump that lizardfolk encounter - they're supposed to. They'll probably burn up a few spells and hps doing so. I'd also suggest taking the "20% of resources per encounter" rule of thumb with a grain of salt - the first encounter of the day, in my experience, rarely burns up 20% of spells or hp unless it's higher than EL = APL.
I noticed that the original post didn't specifically say that this was just one encounter. If this was a group of monsters thrown at the PCs all at once, then I'd estimate it at EL 7-8 for reasons cited elsewhere. But if this is the population of a village (and the old modules liked giving you things like that), then I could see this being broken down based on which lizardfolk are encountered when and where. That idea also explains the old level 2-4 rating.
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I noticed that the original post didn't specifically say that this was just one encounter. If this was a group of monsters thrown at the PCs all at once, then I'd estimate it at EL 7-8 for reasons cited elsewhere. But if this is the population of a village (and the old modules liked giving you things like that), then I could see this being broken down based on which lizardfolk are encountered when and where. That idea also explains the old level 2-4 rating.
Nope, this was all at once. This would be one of those encounters where I run out of minis and have to use green army men for lizards, "OK, the guy with the mine detector is really a halberd.."
As I noticed recently reading through the DMGs section about awarding xp, setting a EL isn't realy worth that much since xp awards are still dealt out according to CR. Therefore I would say use the math and call it a EL 10 encounter, their still gonna get the same amount of xp in the end.
As I noticed recently reading through the DMGs section about awarding xp, setting a EL isn't realy worth that much since xp awards are still dealt out according to CR. Therefore I would say use the math and call it a EL 10 encounter, their still gonna get the same amount of xp in the end.
Agreed. In fact since this is already broken you can skip out on the part where you do the math. I mean if your publishing (even for free) this then you should include the EL for completeness' sake but in that case you should try and work out the true mathematical EL instead of estimating what you think the EL is.
The trouble with dismissing the EL system entirely is that it leaves DMs with no safety net they can fall back on if they hit a snag before or during the game. Instead of dismissing the EL system entirely it's better to use it as a gauge (instead of gospel) on how difficult an encounter is. It's by no means a perfect system, but it was put together and later refined by some good designers so it can't be complete rubbish.