Cost not being a factor which special material would you prefer? Mithral grants a +2 to maximum dexterity, -3 armor check and -10 arcane failure. Medium mithral armor is counted as light and heavy is counted as medium. Adamantium provides DR 1/- for light, 2/- for medium, and 3/- for heavy. Generally our players prefer mithral, although we normally play with a high point buy variant. I would like to ask if everyone could question their gaming table to get a good concensus from the DnD community. After thinking of the adventure paths and how often stat blocks have power attack factored in I am believing the +2 AC would benefit more than reduction of damage.
I think your spot on. DR/3 is just not that impressive in anything but the lowest level adventures (were this armour is unaffordable). That said if you don't have a dex bonus that is better then the armour then DR is sure better then nothing. I suspect one would see it a fair bit if one went to a 25 point buy.
A lot of it depends of the character. If you have a high-Dex (16+) character or one that has armor restrictions (bards, rogues, certain arcane caster builds/classes), then mithral will usually be more useful. If you have a low-Dex (13 or less) character without armor restrictions (some barbarians, cleric, fighter, paladin), then adamantine will usually be more useful. Barbarians in particular have a difficult choice: medium adamantine armor for DR that stacks with their class DR (since they're both non-magical DR x/-) or heavy mithral armor for additional AC; even the cost is comparable (+10,000gp vs. +9,000gp).
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I've had both on different barbarian builds, and both have been useful. The DR 3/- really adds up, even at high levels, and makes certain situations nearly harmless. On the other hand, the mithral on my dwarf has been nice for the higher speed (the human barb has boots of speed, so he can move faster as needed), and since that character has a higher Dex, I'll get more AC out of it long haul.
I've seen lots of Mithral armour, but no Adamantium. The Mithral armour, in particular, really benefits the Barbarian class, negating that class' lower AC vs. the Fighter.
In fact, I would argue that it is Mithral armour and the Animated shield, rather than anything inherent to the class itself, that makes the Barbarian overpowered vs the Fighter.
medium adamantine armor for DR that stacks with their class DR (since they're both non-magical DR x/-)
Can you quote the SRD on this? I was under the impression that, per the RAW, no damage reduction ever stacked. Ever. Under any circumstances. DRs of different types (/magic, /-, /magic bludeoning salad fork) overlapped, but didn't stack.
Personally, I allow the overlapping of at least adamantine armor's DR and a barbarian's innate DR. I think the RAW has taking the limiting of stacking too far in this case and eliminated a pretty cool option- without stacking, every barbarian always goes for mithril armor, duh! But, as has been indicated here, by allowing the stacking, you create a fairly balanced (IMO) and intriguing choice.
Anyway, while going with the allowance of adamantine armor DR stacking, I think an adamantine breastplate on a barbarian is a pretty darned good choice, considering they get another DR 2/- out of it and can still move at the base speed for their race.
Another question- for those who go the mithril route, do you typically go with mithril medium armor to make it light and increase speed, or get mithril full plate so you keep the same speed and increase your AC even more?
Can you quote the SRD on this? I was under the impression that, per the RAW, no damage reduction ever stacked. Ever. Under any circumstances. DRs of different types (/magic, /-, /magic bludeoning salad fork) overlapped, but didn't stack.
That was my understanding of the rule as well.
Another question- for those who go the mithril route, do you typically go with mithril medium armor to make it light and increase speed, or get mithril full plate so you keep the same speed and increase your AC even more?
Barbarians go with mithral full plate for maximum AC, while Rogues go with mithral chain shirts, in order to avoid a skill check penalty. Rangers (if I'd seen one with Mithral armour) would probably wear mithral breastplates. It's about getting the highest AC without suffering any penalty. (My players have a curious trait where they won't ever take any penalty, even if doing so would lead to a more powerful character overall. So, for example, they'll always go for an Int of 10 for their Fighters, despite the fact that that stat is an ideal dump stat for any non-caster with only 2 skill points a level.)
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I've got to say, for armor, mithril is pretty much always the superior option. There are a few notable exceptions, but they are minimal. A non-TWF fighter, knight, or paladin are the classes which would benefit more (in general) from adamantine than mithril. For everything else, mithril is king.
Now, for weapons, adamantine rocks the house without question, but that's a different discussion.
Barbarians in particular have a difficult choice: medium adamantine armor for DR that stacks with their class DR (since they're both non-magical DR x/-) or heavy mithral armor for additional AC; even the cost is comparable (+10,000gp vs. +9,000gp).
I would not think that these stack.
From the Hypertext SRD
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
So in this case we are not even talking about looking for different types etc. Its just a straight up, if sources are different then no stacking - does not matter if one is magical and the other is not or any other consideration (unless, of course, that other consideration explicitly states that its breaking RAW and is stackable - as is the case with a few feats).
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What really bugs me: is it mithril or mithral? According to Tolkien and Salvatore, it's called mithril. 2nd edition simply referred to it as elven chain if my memory serves. First time I heard of mithral was in the 3rd edition DMG. What gives?
Adamantine armour is pretty lousy. More expensive than mithril. Even a fighter with a dex of 10 is better off buying mithril armour and investing in some gloves of dexterity. I'm thinking of house ruling that not only does adamantine's damage reduction stack with other DR's, but it also gains a +1 enhancement bonus that stacks with other enhancement bonuses. That would make it on par with mithril.
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When my characters get to the stage of being able to afford Mithril or Adamantine armor, there are really only 4 options I consider.
Mithril Chain Shirt
Mithril Breastplate
Mithril Full PLate
Adamantine Full Plate
Which one I go with generally depends on DEX of the Character. My current character is a Dwarven Cleric with DEX 9, so I will be getting Adamantine Armor ASAP. (Unfortunantly, being only level 1, it is still a looooong way off).
Barbarians in particular have a difficult choice: medium adamantine armor for DR that stacks with their class DR (since they're both non-magical DR x/-) or heavy mithral armor for additional AC; even the cost is comparable (+10,000gp vs. +9,000gp).I would not think that these stack.
From the Hypertext SRD
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.So in this case we are not even talking about looking for different types etc. Its just a straight up, if sources are different then no stacking - does not matter if one is magical and the other is not or any other consideration (unless, of course, that other consideration explicitly states that its breaking RAW and is stackable - as is the case with a few feats).
Yeah, the SRD does say that. I always read that as meaning "more than one type," in context with the rest of the description and the second sentence (also considering that magical effects unless specifically stated do not stack with innate abilities of the same type). I've always considered that innate (as opposed to magical) DR x/- effects (such as adamantine, barbarian and dwarven defender class feature, DR x/- racial ability, etc.) stack from a "this makes sense" perspective. A barbarian doesn't get less tough when wearing adamantine armor or the armor doesn't lose its toughness when worn by a barbarian! Considering that a 20th level barbarian wearing an adamantine breastplate would get a DR 7/- instead of a DR 5/- and a 10th level dwarven defender wearing admantine full plate would get a DR 9/- instead of DR 6/-, it's a only a minor/decent benefit for specific circumstances at high cost.
What sort of DR would make Adamantine more attractive? I am not a fan of Power-creep, so my instinct is to lower the mithral's attractiveness (like drop the heavy to medium and medium to light business). But for arguments sake, how much DR to compete?
Double the DR?
Add 2 Points?
Add 1 point?
what?
Just let it stack with barbarian and dwarven defender DR. Low Dex/high Str clerics, fighters, and paladins (and knights from PHB II) already have incentive to get adamantine (especially dwarves, with the ability to wear/carry medium or heavy armor/load without speed penalties). You could also reduce the cost to +4,000 for light armor, +8,000 for medium armor, and +12,000 for heavy armor if you want even more incentive (or even +3,000/+6,000/+9,000 if you really want to make adamantine attractive).
Just let it stack with barbarian and dwarven defender DR.
I'm not 100% possitive but somewhere I've seen something, (whether in a book, Dragon Magazine(the Sage), or errata), that DR #/- is a non typed bonus that only stacks with itself.
So a Dwarf former Barbarian 10, Dwarven defender 10, wearing adamantine plate armor would have a DR of 11/- the DR from both classes and his armor stacking together. Which actually trumps the spell Stones skins DR of 10/adamantine. and, since all bonuses are Extraordinary, would function just fine in a no magic zone.
Just let it stack with barbarian and dwarven defender DR.I'm not 100% possitive but somewhere I've seen something, (whether in a book, Dragon Magazine(the Sage), or errata), that DR #/- is a non typed bonus that only stacks with itself.
So a Dwarf former Barbarian 10, Dwarven defender 10, wearing adamantine plate armor would have a DR of 11/- the DR from both classes and his armor stacking together. Which actually trumps the spell Stones skins DR of 10/adamantine. and, since all bonuses are Extraordinary, would function just fine in a no magic zone.
If someone wants to go for that build, including losing the ability to rage from the change to lawful alignment and the non-optimal combat machine feats, he may as well have the benefit. He's going to be behind the straight barbarian in offense and the fighter/dwarven defender in combat feats (like Weapon Specialization, etc.), so a few extra points of DR aren't a lot compared to what a 20th level character would be facing. Sure, he can tank better than anyone, but when you have a Mighty Raging barbarian 20 use a Leap Attack/Combat Brute (Momentum Swing) combo in the first two rounds of combat (taking a mere -5 to attack nets a +15 to damage on each hit with a two-handed weapon in those two rounds), those extra few points of DR are pretty well trumped.
I've always considered that innate (as opposed to magical) DR x/- effects (such as adamantine, barbarian and dwarven defender class feature, DR x/- racial ability, etc.) stack from a "this makes sense" perspective. A barbarian doesn't get less tough when wearing adamantine armor or the armor doesn't lose its toughness when worn by a barbarian!
Well I don't really see how your going to break anything with a house rule like that but it ain't RAW.
I don’t know if this would work but grappling in adamantine armor with armor spikes plus improved sunder to destroy an enemy’s armor. Hmm I’m not sure it’s worth it but gives me something to think about.
Mithral is still the pick in my group, but my players then to go with dexterous characters. However, I do allow a barbarian’s damage reduction to stack with adamantine armor. I really didn’t bother thinking about RAW when I made the choice. I just see it as the weapon has to deal with the armor then the toughness of the barbarian. I just never really felt that the 3/- was going to destroy a game. I can always increase the BBEG’s damage out put. Hehe
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What sort of DR would make Adamantine more attractive? I am not a fan of Power-creep, so my instinct is to lower the mithral's attractiveness (like drop the heavy to medium and medium to light business). But for arguments sake, how much DR to compete?
Double the DR?
Add 2 Points?
Add 1 point?
what?
I don't know that it would ever compete with me. I always prefer mithral. Better speed, fewer armor check penalties, and more potential to fully use a higher dex make mithral more enticing. The only time adamantine is truly useful is with heavy armor -- and the only time that looks good to me would be if I had a negative to my dex score.
At least those are my thoughts on it...
I pretty much only play elves, and when they can afford mitril, they wear mithril. It adds a added depth to the elf.
Almost invariably, our group goes for mithral. Typically, this is to reduce the armor one weight-step for Warlocks, Warmages, Rangers, etc to allow for their class restrictions while improving their AC.
DR3 is still pretty good. It's equivalent to every opponent having -6 to Strength for the purposes of damage. Usually though, high-dex characters will end up taking mithral.
Damage reduction only stacks if it specifically states that the DR will stack, which I have seen a lot more lately in recent products.
As for Barbarian DR and adamantine DR not stacking, it doesn't make sense why they wouldn't to me. Heck, with the damage monsters and PCs can dish out in melee, I don't see why not let all DR stack from different sources!