I'm probably going to have to modify Wells of Darkness pretty extensively to keep things PC-centric. Am I alone in thinking so?
I've really liked everything I've seen in STAP so far - which is why this seemed to jump out at me. This "adventure" looked an awful lot like "go here, talk to this succubus, go there, talk to this succubus-queen (or possibly two if you get mislead), get a hint about some evil wizardess you're going to have to talk to..."
If a Player Character reaches 19th level, he or she should be entitled to something a little more satisfying than playing second fiddle to a parade of NPCs. I just don't see my players hanging around swapping war stories about all those negotiations they made with various NPCs who seem to hold the upper hand. And with Iggwilv - who, it has apparently been made clear on other threads, will be much too powerful for the PCs to defeat when they meet her - Orcus, and others on the way, it looks like we're about to get more PC-limelight stolen by chatty bad guys. Oh boy.
And this from a guy who has been waiting for Orcus vs. Demogorgon since third grade.
Finally, this doesn't seem much like the Abyss as I understand it. I know "defeat" doesn't always mean "Kill," but when did we cheapen "defeat" to the point where "interact" is now good enough? An ECL 20 reward for talking to Red-Shroud is a real interesting way to learn your next fighter bonus feat. I understand that not every demon should be trying to kill the PCs immediately, but all this chit-chat seems tedious and strangely out of character. Save some negotiation for the nine hells, will ya?
Caveats:
(1) We haven't run it yet. We're not even close.
(2) The mounted demons attacking during a Styx flood looks neat.
(3)I really liked "Diplomacy." It isn't the amount of non-combat solutions that bothers me (altough, as mentioned, it seems out of character in the abyss), it's that this feels like those "final chapters" (Warhammer: Storm of Chaos, Deadlands: Wasted West, Torg, etc.) where we see how much face time we can give all these big, important NON-players. Yawn.
I'm not quite sure how the PCs being the ones to gather the information from the various NPCs, then doing the actions that they may or may not suggest is letting the NPCs steal the show. The PCs are still the ones to figure out that they need to talk to X, and then they figure out from the information from X that they need to do Y (but they may be wrong and do Z instead).
In fact, knowing that they have interacted with "important" NPCs, but that THEY are the ones to do all of the universe shattering stuff, at least for my players, would make them feel pretty important.
I'm not playing in or running the STAP, but I've been reading the adventures in the hopes of running it someday. That being said, I don't get the impression that the PCs are playing second-fiddle to NPCs at all. After all, it's the PCs who are organizing the movers and shakers of the Abyss to architect a coup of monumental proportions. How many PCs, even epic-level, can say that?
It might just take an occasional reminder to point out to the players that, without the PCs, this whole thing will fall apart. They truly are the most important piece in what is building to be a conclusion that rocks the entire multi-verse. That should stroke their egos enough, methinks. :)
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Except that according to the expected sequence of events, the PCs have been unwitting pawns of another demon lord almost from the beginning of the campaign. I don't like that much, and I'm wondering about largely restructuring these final adventures, but I'll wait to see how it finishes out before deciding anything.
I don't know, I don't quite get this mindset. If NPCs having their own goals and motivations behind the scenes takes away from the PCs, then what are NPCs included in the game for? Just to be there to sell stuff to the PCs and hand them out their next quest? I think its a lot more two dimentsional to have NPCs in the game world that don't do anything other than react to the PCs than to have some that have agendas and plans that are working throughout the campaign.
While it is obviously too early to evaluate "Enemy of My Enemy," I'm fairly certain that the PCs will be at the center of the massive effort to forge a coalition of planar powers, each with conflicting agendas and egos that must be reconciled (or hidden), to strike at Demogorgon. And it looks to me that the PCs will be operating without a net, since no good NPC as powerful as Manzorian has yet to make an appearance in the STAP. Frankly, I think the prospect of this adventure is simply delicious.
I love the STAP and I think it is easily the best series of D&D adventures that I have ever read, and the well-developed, recurring NPCs are probably one of the biggest reasons for its success, but I never thought that any of the various NPCs actions ever really overshadow the PCs actions.
Compare that to the AoW, where NPCs like Allustan, Eligos, and Manzorian initially do alot of the heavy lifting, especially in the middle chapters. In the AoW, the PCs gather a lot of the clues, hand it over to a sage, and then do something else while that sage figures things out. I don't want to disparage the AoW too much, as I think it is also a great AP, but I much prefer the way the STAP is structured. When the PCs need information from an NPC they have to actively do something to get it; the action of the adventure and the information pay-off that links to the next adventure are more integrated (to be fair, you do see this in the later adventures of the AoW, especially "The Prince of Redhand," "The Library of Last Resort," and "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure.").
Lastly, when were chaotic evil fiends stripped of their intelligence? I have no problem with Red Shroud not attacking the PCs; she has an agenda which is better served by keeping the PCs alive.
I have nothing against motivated NPCs, and I'm not saying the Demons should be less intelligent - just a little more impulsive and menacing, and a little less immediately helpful.
Between Azhu (who I suppose we can't blame, being as he can't attack), Red Shroud and Shami, we're having no less than three tea-times with abyssal high ups - four if your group detours to Mal's place. The way it's written, the demons don't even convey much menace - with the possible exception of Azhu, who can't attack. The way I handle demons, the odds of lining up three in succession who are willing and capable of sustained, civil parley are long indeed - and the price of such a conversation would be much higher.
Good point about the Age of Worms. Maybe (as was raised earlier) what's bothering me is that the whole thing is a set up by the Queen of Succubi, or the subtle-but-present "pull" of the adventure toward a particular set of circumstances. Or maybe it was a full EL 20 reward for speaking to Red Shroud (a story reward, fine, but EL 20?). Perhaps it was the fact that it's the inevitable lull before the final conflict. Whatever the case, someting about this installment seemed unimpressive to the point of frustrating - but, again, we're nowhere near it in our group.
I'm still looking forward to Orcus and Demogorgon, though, and on a high note, by the time my party reaches this stage they'll be so wrapped up in the politics of the abyss, the nine hells and other planes that they probably won't need so much blatant prodding from helpful demons to start tracking down Demogorgon's enemies.
but we already did one adventure where much of the work was done by NPC:s... remember defending farshore?
The assault should be a similar mission, you choose which ones to use.. gather weapons etc..
A whole adventure to just gathering the forces... yay!
Hopefully laying out a plan, and trying to figure out which endings are desired and which ones aren't and thus pick the right allies.. might not be a bad idea to get both orcus & grazzt... & hope they begin fighting eachother once they have done what they came for :D
While simultaneously suggesting others strike at the now empty realms of grazzt % orcus :D
And only then get the celestials to come to your help.. helping secure the now leaderless maw for goodness!
Getting a CR 20 reward for speaking to demon is no different from that adventure in AOW where you had to travel to Kyuss's old temple/spire and got all those visions. The PCs didn't even need to do anything to get the XP in that adventure. It probably really doesn't make that much sense, but PCs have to get XP somehow!
This adventure is probably the weak link in the later adventures, but it's still an important adventure as far as the outcome of the last few adventures is concerned. I call the adventure a "necessary evil."
Ummmm, hello? You're talking to bunch of succubui. It's like a deadly evening of cruising for chicks. All worth while, IMO - I can imagine the RP now...
DM: You want to do what with Red Shroud?!
Player: Don't worry, I've got protection! Let's do this, toots! *recieves a death ward, flexes muscles*
Seconding Ninja's point, succubi generally are not so much known for going straight at their rivals as other demonic types. They're nothing if not clever, indirect, and persuasive--maybe even chatty if it serves their purposes. Reading the fine print, I don't think any of these villains is meant to be particularly friendly to the PCs (cf. the final note on what Shami does to her rescuer, if he's foolish enough to let her, as an example). It's hard to bring off the full depth of these seductresses' evil in print, since it's kind of pointless to script full conversations. It'll be a challenge to bring off these NPCs effectively--just the right amount of grudging cooperation to make the adventure go forward, enough behind the scenes maneuvering and nastiness to remind the PCs to watch their backs for the rest of the campaign. You've gotta figure that all of the super-succubi in question will be wanting to dispose of the PCs as soon as they've served their purpose--the PCs most likely know too much about things that their earstwhile allies would like kept secret. You could do a whole epic campaign on the post-climactic maneuvering.
If you want the succubi to be nastier, replace some of their class levels with Fiend of Temptation levels (PrC in Fiend Folio), and have them offer some gifts to the PCs, with strings attached. In fact, maybe a secondary goal of all three of these fine ladies is to bend one or more of the PCs to their will, making them powerful but docile minions. After Demogorgon, they go after each other, attempting to use the PCs as pawns. If the PCs are smart, maybe they figure out how to manipulate the rivalries to their advantage.
I'd say it's kind of up to the players to make sure the PCs have "agency" (as the social scientists would put it). The magazines give the DM a basic framework for leading the PCs around by the nose if that is what it takes--a good DM and good players will take the ball and run with it, and no one will feel railroaded or batted around like a shuttlecock by the important NPCs.