A thread over on Enworld got me thinking about saves and DCs. I think it is often a problem that gamers have no commonly accepted standard of how often a save should be successful. I'd love to hear what the folks on the Paizo staff have to say on the subject, also:
1. Should a character's good save be successful 50%, 75% or 95%?
2. Should a character's bad save be successful 5%, 25% or 50%?
3. Should character DCs differ from monster DCs? If so, by how much?
4. Do your opinions about how saves/DCs should interact differ from your experiences of how they actually interact? If so, how?
|
1. Should a character's good save be successful 50%, 75% or 95%?
That depends on both the level and the effect. Low-level characters should fail more often than high-level characters (so there is a feeling that being higher level is actually an advantage). Also, save-or-die should generally be easier than save-or-take-damage effects. Broadly, I'd say that the good save (assuming a reasonable characteristic bonus) should succeed 60-90% of the time.
2. Should a character's bad save be successful 5%, 25% or 50%?
From the above, the result should probably be something like 50-75%.
3. Should character DCs differ from monster DCs? If so, by how much?
That depends on the creature. Some creatures should have saves notably worse than those of the characters, so that the characters get to be successful with their spells. Some should have saves equivalent to those of the PCs. There should, of course, be a tradeoff of advantages for the creatures, so a character with high saves should have lower other powers, hit points, hit bonus, damage, or whatever.
4. Do your opinions about how saves/DCs should interact differ from your experiences of how they actually interact? If so, how?
Seems reasonable at the levels that I usually play and run, though I don't play much at high levels.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
|
A thread over on Enworld got me thinking about saves and DCs. I think it is often a problem that gamers have no commonly accepted standard of how often a save should be successful. I'd love to hear what the folks on the Paizo staff have to say on the subject, also:
1. Should a character's good save be successful 50%, 75% or 95%?
2. Should a character's bad save be successful 5%, 25% or 50%?
3. Should character DCs differ from monster DCs? If so, by how much?
4. Do your opinions about how saves/DCs should interact differ from your experiences of how they actually interact? If so, how?
Not staff, of course, but the nature of the game at high levels (failing a save more or less equalling death or at least out of combat) means that all kinds of saves need to nearly always succeed once you're into the teens. I consider this a serious flaw of the game, and hope that if there is a future edition, it introduces the concept of a gradiant of success/failure on a save.
1) 75% or higher
2) 50% or higher
3) Not really, in my opinion
4) My preferences for how they should work would involve considerable mechanical changes to the game.
It would seem to me that this is nearly unanswerable unless we all agree on what the point but is for starting characters. I suppose we could make rulings on the basis of the elite array or something and then presume that this is the base line I suppose - though I suspect that significantly less then half the games being run at any given time are based on a 25 point buy.
Beyond that it seems that the mechanics of save DCs make it really tough to put a percentage on this. DCs are usually heavily influenced by stats and monster stats are all over the place and get ever more variable as the levels go up. This - I suspect - is a major reason why assigning CR is something of an art and not a cold science. A big factor is how hard the save DCs are for some of their better abilities and the repercussions of a failed save.
1. Should a character's good save be successful 50%, 75% or 95%?
2. Should a character's bad save be successful 5%, 25% or 50%?
3. Should character DCs differ from monster DCs? If so, by how much?
4. Do your opinions about how saves/DCs should interact differ from your experiences of how they actually interact? If so, how?
1. The good save should be approximately 80% succesfull
2. The bad should be at 40%3. These answer depends on the monster. Animals cannot be more dangerous than aberrations. Also there is a factor of CR. All equal, characters should be slightly better than other creatures.
4. This question I cannot answer it since I'm truly mixed up whether they work well or not. I think that it depends heavily on the DM, especially at the higher levels.
In my experience...never. ;-)
I think save DCs should roughly parallel AC/ to hit ratios, or about 50%. The 80% for good save, 40% for bad saves thing works, kind of like trying to hit a ftr vice a wizzy.
Great responses so far. In an ideal system (not D&D), I would like saves to mirror my first exposure to them which was in 2nd edition. Back then a saving throw was described as "a slight chance to avoid mishap". This of course requires the modification of many spells and effects, most notably save-or-dies, but hey that's what my Fantasia project is for.
Keep the replies comin'!
I am going to weigh in on the 80% for good saves and 40-60% for poor saves. What percentage chance do your party have against the wizard's or priest's spells?
Our current Ptolus campaign has hit a snag. My character is a rogue/invisible blade. He has the best search (17) because of a magic item. Our last dungeon was part of Ghul's labyrinth. He missed finding a magical trap and was affected by fear for 30rds. That works out to 30th level. His multiclassing provides him with an outstanding reflex save but his Fort is +7 and his Will is +5. His concern is dying from a magical trap, a bad way to go. Some of the party is gung-ho because there is rumor of great treasure at the end. Currently it is at a standstill.
I am going to weigh in on the 80% for good saves and 40-60% for poor saves. What percentage chance do your party have against the wizard's or priest's spells?
Our current Ptolus campaign has hit a snag. My character is a rogue/invisible blade. He has the best search (17) because of a magic item. Our last dungeon was part of Ghul's labyrinth. He missed finding a magical trap and was affected by fear for 30rds. That works out to 30th level. His multiclassing provides him with an outstanding reflex save but his Fort is +7 and his Will is +5. His concern is dying from a magical trap, a bad way to go. Some of the party is gung-ho because there is rumor of great treasure at the end. Currently it is at a standstill.
So what, your companions are trying to chase you down as you run in screaming fear into a random section of dungeon? Must be lots o' fun for you!
The more I think about it, the less I like how saves and DCs interact in current D&D. I'd rather that PCs and monsters have the same relative chances to succeed on saves no matter their level/CR. As a game progresses, there should be progressively higher bonuses but the d20 roll should never become just a wrist excersize.
I also don't like a saving throw to ever have good odds on succeeding. It just sounds oxymoronic to me, and very un-magical and un-fantastic. Well, maybe a good save + good stat should have a good chance of success. In Fantasia I've decided to rig saves and DCs so that a poor save succeeds 25%, a good save 50% and a good save + good stat 75%. To keep save-or-KOs in line, they will each have a level/CR cap. Above this cap, the spell/effect auto fails. The caps will be anywhere from the user's level/CR -1 to level/CR -5.
I feel that this mechanic will be more reminiscent of D&D's literary and dramatic roots. Drastic, I know, but that's why I don't just call it 'My Buttload of House Rules'.
So what, your companions are trying to chase you down as you run in screaming fear into a random section of dungeon? Must be lots o' fun for you!
More than that, we had just come into the dungeon, entered a main room with many doors. The symbol was on the first door we checked. I failed and ran away trying the closest door. The party caught up with me as I was trying to get through and grappled me. I have a very good escape artist skill so I slipped away and tried another door. Eventually they gang tackled me after 3 or 4 doors. Fortunately none of them were trapped. :-D
I am not quite sure I understand your reference to 2nd edition. In 1st and 2nd edition the saves were easier at higher levels of play. To such an extent that items were being created that imposed a penalty on saving throws.
While I don't think its particularity easy to put a percentage number on the DCs there is something of a pattern in the game and saves get easier at higher levels. This is because saves rise constantly from just gaining levels while the DCs are something of a static formula. Hence the saves tend to be harder to make at lower levels then at higher levels.
I am not quite sure I understand your reference to 2nd edition. In 1st and 2nd edition the saves were easier at higher levels of play. To such an extent that items were being created that imposed a penalty on saving throws.
I like the way saves worked in 2nd edition even less than I like how they work now. I just meant that I would like saves to work as they were described in 2nd ed., as 'a slight chance to avoid mishap', throughout a character's career.
While I don't think its particularity easy to put a percentage number on the DCs there is something of a pattern in the game and saves get easier at higher levels. This is because saves rise constantly from just gaining levels while the DCs are something of a static formula. Hence the saves tend to be harder to make at lower levels then at higher levels.
I don't think it's an accident that this is the case. With all the save-or-KO spells and effects flying around at high levels, a character has to be able to make even a bad save more often than not.
Well, maybe a good save + good stat should have a good chance of success.
Actually, that's not too far from how the current game really works. If you think about it, most classes have an emphasis on an ability that will feed into their good save. For example, clerics and druids have high Wisdom and a good will save. However, wizards get a good Will save but no emphasis on Wisdom (same with sorcerers). This actually leads to wizards and sorcerers having a decent chance of failing Will saves that you would generally think a character with a good Will base save should make. It's just that most classes don't have this situation- typically, if you have a good save, you're also going to have a high ability score to go it with (rogues, Reflex saves, and Dexterity, for example).
Actually, that's not too far from how the current game really works.
Oh, I'm not denying it. I just don't like that at high levels, a character can hardly fail a save except on a nat 1.