Oh, and this is for Valegrim; re: his rant thread post.
I guess efreeti are ogl(?)
yes they are in the SRD
I seem to recall demondads and daemons being ogl material via tome of horrors, which would be excellent. However, there's a big whole in the monster list asking for a chaotic outsider.
A replacement githyanky/githzerai isn't going to fall from the sky however. The githyanki and their cousins are steeped in history and grew organically into their place in the cosmology. Something entirely new seeming, developped as a natural part of the pathfinder setting will hopefully gain enough fan support to play similar roles, and add to a unique pathfinder mythos.
I think Sucros's points hold for most of the non-OGL extraplanars. It's cool to kick ideas around on the boards, but it shouldn't be about "how do we replace X?" It should be about "what kinds of cool ideas can we come up with for other planes and their denizens?"
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I think Sucros's points hold for most of the non-OGL extraplanars. It's cool to kick ideas around on the boards, but it shouldn't be about "how do we replace X?" It should be about "what kinds of cool ideas can we come up with for other planes and their denizens?"
Agreed!
Besides there already are more monsters to choose from than applicable in any campaign.
Examples?
- Book of Fiends (Green Ronin Publishing): i.m.h.o. the best OGL book on demons, daemons, and devils (and b.t.w. authoured by Erik Mona, Robert Schwalb, Chris Pramas, and Aaron Loeb, surely not a bad reference): containing about 100 new daemons, devils, and demons
- Tome of Horrors I (Necromancer Games, now cooperating with Paizo): 450 pages of converted old edition monsters plus some very neat new ones, recommended by Monte Cook (quotation: "If a role playing game is a gun, then a monster book is the ammunition. If that's the case, then Tome of Horrors is a case of hollow point, explosive shells"). For doubters part of the monster listing by type:
Extraplanar: Abyssal dire monstrous frog, aerial servant, angels, animal lords, astral shark, daemons, demodands, demons, demonic knight, devils, drelb, elementals, elemental dragons, firefiend, fire nymph, fire snake, foo creature, gloomwing, guardian daemon, khargra, magnesium spirit, midnight peddler, mihstu, moon dog, mudman, pech, phantom stalker, protector, quasi-elemental, sandling, sandman, slaad lord, soul eater, stench kow, tenebrous worm, thunder beast, true gorgons, wind walker.
Some of the entries above broken up in monster numbers:
- daemons (7)
- demons (24, including stats for Orcus, Baphomet, Dagon, and Jubilex! [o.k., maybe the demon names aren't freely usable, but the stats... ;-)])
- devils (13, including Lucifer and others)
- demodands (3)
- demonic knights
- etc. pp. - In need of new templates for monsters?
- The Advanced Bestiary (Green Ronin Publishing): more than 250 pages of new templates.
- Book of Templates (Deluxe Edition 3.5) (Silverthorne Games): more than 190 pages of new templates. - dozens of pdf supplements which explicitly address those monsters not part of the OGL/ SRD (offering alternatives to fill the niches left by mind flayers, beholders etc.)
With all those OGL monsters at hand and the Paizo stuff busily providing new monsters in each PF issue, I wonder if there is a problem of "Will there be enough monsters?".
I guess, we will rather see a flood of monsters and will sometime fondly remember the times when Dungeon "just" made use of the official D&D monsters. ;-)
Many people on these boards still seem to "grapple" with the difference between "official D&D", SRD, and OGL. Therefore the fears are understandable that PF could have to cope "just" with SRD monsters.
I recommend to these people to have a closer look at the sheer number of books and pdfs out there which offer OGL monsters. I.m.h.o. there are already too many to overlook!
It would be sad if everyone expected PF to fill a hole that doesn't exist.
Greetings,
Günther
P.S.
By the way: Which DM ever managed to use all monsters from MM I - IV? ;-)
- demons (24, including stats for Orcus, Baphomet, Dagon, and Jubilex! [o.k., maybe the names aren't freely usable, but the stats... ;-)])
the first three names are freely usable, as they are real world mythological figures.
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Book of Fiends (Green Ronin Publishing): i.m.h.o. the best OGL book on demons, daemons, and devils (and b.t.w. authoured by Erik Mona, Robert Schwalb, Chris Pramas, and Aaron Loeb, surely not a bad reference): containing about 100 new daemons, devils, and demons
Got it! Highly recommend it. Especially if you like watching your players go "WHAT?!? Which monster manual did you pull that from?" And then you go "Just roll initiative"
Tome of Horrors I (Necromancer Games, now cooperating with Paizo): 450 pages of converted old edition monsters plus some very neat new ones, recommended by Monte Cook (quotation: "If a role playing game is a gun, then a monster book ist the ammunition. If that's the casse, then Tome of Horrors is a case of hollow point, explosive shells").
Got it! Highly recommend it. Necromancer Games did it, enough said.
I'm currently working on new Neutral-Blank outsiders, since I don't like Formians and no longer like guardinals after Mike McArctor's 'furries' comment. Hopefully, what I come up with will be good and different.
I am seriously considering purchasing all of these; 2 questions:
1) How much overlap is there between the Book of Templates (Deluxe Edition) and Advanced Bestiary?
2)Is Silverthorne Games different than Goodman games?? Because when I look up Book of Templates, the publisher is invariably Goodman.
The ToH series from Necromancer rocks. I highly recommend generous usage! :)
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I am seriously considering purchasing all of these; 2 questions:
1) How much overlap is there between the Book of Templates (Deluxe Edition) and Advanced Bestiary?
2)Is Silverthorne Games different than Goodman games?? Because when I look up Book of Templates, the publisher is invariably Goodman.
Yeah, ok, I have both these, too. Both are really good sources of monster enhancement. I think the Advanced Bestiary is a bit more attractive whereas the Book of Templates has a much better intro chapter and a more useful organization (by monster type versus alphabetical).
If I had to pick just one I would go with Beast Builder...totally different resource, but very monsterlicious!
Anyway, to my knowledge Silverthorn and Goodman games are completely separate (and awesome) companies. Silverthorn is the producer. It was published by Goodman Games...I do not understand how all that works. Applying templates is far easier to grasp than selling books!
In place of the rather blah Slaad, I'd like to see the iconic race of true chaos be without one form: ever shifting, ever changing, ever adaptable. A constantly evolving, disolving THING.
I am seriously considering purchasing all of these; 2 questions:
1) How much overlap is there between the Book of Templates (Deluxe Edition) and Advanced Bestiary?
2)Is Silverthorne Games different than Goodman games?? Because when I look up Book of Templates, the publisher is invariably Goodman.Yeah, ok, I have both these, too. Both are really good sources of monster enhancement. I think the Advanced Bestiary is a bit more attractive whereas the Book of Templates has a much better intro chapter and a more useful organization (by monster type versus alphabetical).
If I had to pick just one I would go with Beast Builder...totally different resource, but very monsterlicious!
Anyway, to my knowledge Silverthorn and Goodman games are completely separate (and awesome) companies. Silverthorn is the producer. It was published by Goodman Games...I do not understand how all that works. Applying templates is far easier to grasp than selling books!
Much thanks!
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I happen to own Monster Builder, too.
Actually there are 3 pdf books which I printed out and let bind together into one "monster size monster book": The two above mentioned template books and Beast Builder.
Beast Builder is different from the two template books: It is about building (see title) and modifying existing monsters, starting from their ecology and reaching to assigning feats to them... Actually it makes use of all SRD monsters in order to reach this goal. Therefore you'll find e.g. all SRD monster feats in this book. For more info on the book have a look at the link mentioned above for the table of contents of Beast Builder.
Templates are obviously something different.
About the differences between the two template books:
I agree with the poster above. Both are useful, though. You don't have to fear much overlapping of both sources, although you might feel that some templates might be overrepresented... (see the usual complaint about too many undead) and some might be more useful for your individual campaign than others.
If you are interested in more infos, just ask in this thread.
I could have another closer look at the books at home.
Greetings,
Günther
In lieu of being able to use Slaadi, if I had to design a race to embody chaos from the ground up I'd honestly go with a perverse sort of fey-like beings. Whimsy, chaos, transition, instability, change, creation, destruction... all bottled into a form that's a distorted mirror of mortality. The trick would be altering them to be distinct from traditional fey.
I'd avoid the "roiling blob of shapeshifting ooze" style of chaos though, because frankly it's too shoggoth'esque and has become something of a cliche.
As far as replacing the 'loths, you could keep some of the same themes they embody (perfection devoid of mercy, faceless emotionless evil, lords of corruption yet slaves to their concept, etc) but you'd need to replace their types, some of their ecology, names etc. It would be a big task, but frankly it'd be fun. :)
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In lieu of being able to use Slaadi, if I had to design a race to embody chaos from the ground up I'd honestly go with a perverse sort of fey-like beings. Whimsy, chaos, transition, instability, change, creation, destruction... all bottled into a form that's a distorted mirror of mortality. The trick would be altering them to be distinct from traditional fey.
I'd avoid the "roiling blob of shapeshifting ooze" style of chaos though, because frankly it's too shoggoth'esque and has become something of a cliche.
As far as replacing the 'loths, you could keep some of the same themes they embody (perfection devoid of mercy, faceless emotionless evil, lords of corruption yet slaves to their concept, etc) but you'd need to replace their types, some of their ecology, names etc. It would be a big task, but frankly it'd be fun. :)
Nice and thorough perception of D&D standard critters!
I think there is no immediate need to replace everything, is there?
If you are an authour and need a certain monster, you choose from the vast amount availabe in OGL form. And if you work at Paizo your fingers will itch anyway to create something new... ever increasing the number of availabe OGL monsters. And if you are a reader, you can anyway choose whichever WotC, OGL, and Paizo monster you like... ;-)
I agree with you that simple copying of established monsters and calling the result by a different name is simply boring...
Greetings,
Günther
An absolutely great resource for open content monsters, in addition to the excellent ones already discussed above, is Ari Marmell's Iconic Bestiary: Classics of Fantasy.
This book has awesome, open "equivalents" of those classic but closed D&D critters. I think every d20 publisher should use this, along with Tome of Horrors, Advanced Bestiary, and the Book of Fiends as their monster canon.
The Iconic Bestiary, for example, has the Ei’risai: "As the fiends are to evil, and the angels to good, the ei’risai . . . are to pure, primal chaos. Found on many of the wildest planes, they bask in the churning forces and bursts of energy that are chaos and madness incarnate."
Good, open stuff.
An absolutely great resource for open content monsters, in addition to the excellent ones already discussed above, is Ari Marmell's Iconic Bestiary: Classics of Fantasy.
This book has awesome, open "equivalents" of those classic but closed D&D critters. I think every d20 publisher should use this, along with Tome of Horrors, Advanced Bestiary, and the Book of Fiends as their monster canon.
I was doubtful, but I really like the other resources you mentioned so I thought I'd check it out. (It would have been useful if you'd provided a link.) I downloaded the free sample, checked it out, and was won over.
Thanks for the recommendation!
I think that Paizo has the opportunity, and expertise, to create the new Drow. Remember when you first encountered a Drow? How deep, dark, and scary they were? Unfortunately, they've become the laughing stock of D&D, IMHO.
With plenty of "Ecology" experience behind them, they should be able to come up with the "Ultimate Evil" to replace the non-OGL monsters. With luck, you'll say "Slaadi? What's that?"
They have a whole new playground to unleash. Take a page from Green Ronin's Freeport and include a feel that's grittier than the D&D world. Something "alien", something "bad."
My previous point confirmed by the May 17th blog.
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Hhhmm... I read too many Salvatore novels, I felt pretty bored after that, but I just read WotC's new Drow book and in my opinion it is the best book in the monster series (Fiendish Codex, Draconomicion etc.).
Apparently there is still much life in cliches if you play them to their fullest...
Nevertheless I am sure that Paizo is able to add some new twists to this iconic D&D race.
Greetings,
Günther
I was doubtful, but I really like the other resources you mentioned so I thought I'd check it out. . . I downloaded the free sample, checked it out, and was won over.
Thanks for the recommendation!
Awesome -- glad you liked it. Now here's looking forward to seeing phrenic scourges in future paizo adventures!