i got a min max player who wants to play a psionic druid. how would i keep a lid on him?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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i got a min max player who wants to play a psionic druid. how would i keep a lid on him?
Well, a psionic druid by itself doesn't really sound all that problematic. You'll need high Wisdom for your druid spells and high Intelligence for your psionic powers (unless he's doing a psychic warrior, which also use Wis I think). Druids should probably have a decent Dex and Con as well for survivability early on and, of course, he won't be able to use his psionic powers in wild shape unless you invent a feat that is similar to 'Natural Spell' and call it 'Natural Manifestation' or something.
What exactly is the problem here? Is there some particular thing that you're worried about? Min/maxing happens. It's an inevitable part of gaming. What is it about the druid/psion combo that has you worried?
Psionics require no physical actions and can be used in wild shape without any feat. But I agree that a druid/psion is not very min/maxed. A straight druid is damn powerful, however.
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I would not expect any high physical scores from a psionic druid; wildshape covers that pretty well after only a few levels. I would be wary of Powers that add abilities to physical attacks, which for the druid would be strong natural attacks already. Other than that, his combination doesn't seem to be particularly worrisome.
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i got a min max player who wants to play a psionic druid. how would i keep a lid on him?
A good answer except for him would be along the lines of "Druids are all about nature, the world around you. Psionics are all internal, about the self. Such diverse ideologies cannot co-exist in the same being..."
i got a min max player who wants to play a psionic druid. how would i keep a lid on him?
I strongly suspect you won't have to keep a lid on him. Psionics are really very similar to spell casters when it comes to the idea that one is usually making a mistake to multi-class with them.
Dabbling for 2 levels in Psychic Warrior - more for the bonus feats then for any psionic potential - is not a bad option for a martial player but heavily multi-classing a mental power using type? This is like multi-classing with any other two spell casters except that there are no prestige classes that create some kind of combo Psionic/Druid (that I am aware of). In other words at 10th level you are looking at a 5th level druid and a 5th level Psionic (or Psychic Warrior or Wilder).
That boils down to sub par druid and sub par psionic at 10th level.
Now you specify that this guy is some kind of a min-maxer. So what is his angle? Because, unless there is some kind of an angle, I can't see how you could possibly have a problem here - this combo looks weak to me.
In my opinion you won't have to put a lid on him/her, you'll have to give him/her some kind of bonus or they will be behind the power level of the rest of the party (perhaps signifigantly behind).
Good points from both Tessius and Jeremy. Multiclassing any spellcasters (or MANIFESTERS! Oh, wow! It's different because it's PSIONIC, it says so!) is a bad idea unless you have a PrC like Mystic Theurge (but this one would have to be the PSIONIC theurge and be totally different, except that the stats are all the same, but it's PSIONIC). He'll end up with really weak spells (POWERS! Not spells, POWERS!) at high levels and be quite ineffective. He's hurting himself by doing this.
Also, druids and psions don't really seem to match. They're two totally different forms of magic (Not magic! PSIONICS! It's exactly the same and totally different SIMULTANEOUSLY! *BOOM* My mind just got blown away!). Now, if this guy isn't into roleplaying much, this tact is just going to get blank stares and "So?" as an answer. But, if he is into roleplaying, try suggesting a different route.
Oh, and sorry for my outbursts. I all things from the psionic subsystem of the game.
Oh, and sorry for my outbursts. I LOATHE all things from the psionic subsystem of the game.
So I can tell. I bought the book thinking that it would be different but I was ultimitley dissapointed.
Saern also has a point in that I can think of no good way that this could be roleplayed. A Druid/Wilder mabye but not a Druid/Psion. I can't think of one psionic discipline that would combine well (roleplaying wise) with the druid.
well today we played for the first time and it was a straight druid and i never realized how broken that class was; from the get go his animal companion was a dinasour and he summoned all sorts of nastyness; any suggestions
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Wow, a dinosaur right off the bat? How generous of you.
A druid's animal companion should be limited to the creatures native to the character's homeland, at least at level 1.
As for summoning creatures, they get, what, one attack and then poof, spell duration expires. Well, I suppose they get to protect you until the start of your next turn, too.
Yeah, put a druid in a city or a dungeon and a lot of their power should go away. Druids are a strong class, at least on the level of clerics, if not more powerful, but they aren't "broken." You just have to learn what types of adventures and challenges are good to pit them against, just as you would a rogue, ranger, paladin, cleric, etc.
Oh, and what level are you playing at? Dinosaurs shouldn't be available at 1st level unless you allow the PHB2 and either let the character have animal companions from environments he's not been to, or run a game set in those environments (which is fine, but it's a little non-standard and thus the surprise at the dinosaur in the above post).
eberron is the setting and im running a evil game so i started them kinda high, he said his summons last for 16 rounds. he said he had a feat that doubled there time, im not too familiar with druids but im not the type of person to tell someone they cant play what they want
I recommend getting familiar with them in general, and his in specific. That will solve a lot of your balance issues. Also, you seem to be relying on his word as to what his abilities are/can do. Again, I'd take a closer look to make sure he's running things right. Obviously there's the possibility of deception, but even if he's being "honest," he could still be reading the rules wrong.
I had a player once that tried his hand at a few spellcasters. I'd ask him for the specifics of a spell and he'd say something that didn't sound right, causing me to reach for the PHB to look it up. As I flipped through, he'd swear over and over that he knew how this spell worked. Almost every time, upon reading the spell myself, I'd find that he was wrong. I don't believe he was cheating, he just didn't actually read/remember the mechanics of the spell very well (which was extremely irritating).
I recommend getting familiar with them in general, and his in specific. That will solve a lot of your balance issues. Also, you seem to be relying on his word as to what his abilities are/can do. Again, I'd take a closer look to make sure he's running things right. Obviously there's the possibility of deception, but even if he's being "honest," he could still be reading the rules wrong.
This is very strong advice. Its part of the DMs job to know the rules, especially regarding what your players are doing. If they throw you a curve ball from left field you should probably take their word for it for that session but make a point to look up the relevant rules when the game is over and before the next session begins. If you want to run a game you need to know how the game is played.
Oh, and sorry for my outbursts. I all things from the psionic subsystem of the game.
I actually like it more then the basic magic system in use in the game but I'm not willing to go through all the time and effort of removing the basic magic system (and it just has way to many ramifications if its pulled out) so I simply leave both systems working in tandem. Their different enough that each type of character has its own flavour.
eberron is the setting and im running a evil game so i started them kinda high, he said his summons last for 16 rounds. he said he had a feat that doubled there time, im not too familiar with druids but im not the type of person to tell someone they cant play what they want
Generally summoned creatures have a bark that is worse then their bite. One of their main uses is sucking up damage. Smarter enemies are going to have some idea about the sorts of things that are being summoned. For the level the characters are at summoned monsters are generally somewhat weak. It varies but often the bad guys have some fairly clear best options for dealing with the creatures. Either shredding them quickly for many of the better offensively orientated animals or ignoring them for some of the high hp, high DR ones.
Summoned creatures are probably most effective against opponents that have little means of bypassing the animals to get at the players. This means creatures with little or no range capability that rely on smacking their opponents. Their least effective against opponents that that have area effect abilities since those take in the animals and the players at the same time. Note also that the animals don't gain intelligence and can't usually do more then the most rudimentary communication with the summoner. So don't let the players get really fancy. Certainly things like delaying actions until a certain part of the round should be out and having them weave around mooks to get at the enemy spell caster is pretty iffy as well. Mainly they should be attacking the nearest enemies to them or at least at an enemy they can easily get to that the summoner could reasonably point at.
I suspect that looking over the sorts of animals that are being summoned and keeping your guys abilities in mind should mitigate the problem significantly. Summoning is good but its not game breaking good or anything.
Also keep in mind that a summoning is a full round action. That means when the druid decides to summon a creature he starts the spell on his turn but the summoned creature does not show up until the very start of his next turn. He is basically just standing there making funny noises and waving his hands around for a full turn and is very vulnerable during this entire time. A big danger of summoning spells is that the caster gets hit during the long period of casting and if the hit is hard enough (does enough damage) he looses the spell on a blown concentration check.
I suspect that your biggest problem ultimately comes down to not really knowing what your player is doing and therefore not really understanding the limitations of what he is doing. If you don't understand what the weak points of an ability are the ability tends to seem more powerful.
I could see a powerful potential for synergy with the Psion Uncarnate Prestige class, where a Druid could be wild-shaped, ethereal and carry a bunch of equipment if one interpreted the rules generously, but all in all it seems too expensive and diluted to be effective or attractive to a min/maxer.
He would have to be focused on wild shape and powers & spells that boosted his natural attacks. With a good race and a few levels in Psychic Warrior, this character could squeeze into the realm of ridiculous, I think.
I could see a powerful potential for synergy with the Psion Uncarnate Prestige class, where a Druid could be wild-shaped, ethereal and carry a bunch of equipment if one interpreted the rules generously, but all in all it seems too expensive and diluted to be effective or attractive to a min/maxer.
He would have to be focused on wild shape and powers & spells that boosted his natural attacks. With a good race and a few levels in Psychic Warrior, this character could squeeze into the realm of ridiculous, I think.
While I think your on to something here consider how hard that would be. You need to pick up all these levels in the Uncarnate prestige class and while your doing that your not picking up levels of druid. If your not picking up levels of druid your wild shape is rapidly falling behind. If you are taking one level of Druid and then one level of Uncarnate your not going to get to the really good stuff (Shed Body) for six levels. Worse yet some of these levels don't even raise your manifestor level. This is a powerful prestige class to be sure - especially since many monsters - even really nasty powerful ones, have nothing that helps them against incorporeal players, but in terms of a multi-class Druid/Psion its giving up a lot.
I actually doubt its worth it. Just because the Druid is nearly invulnerable that does not really make the rest of the party invulnerable. The monsters just focus their attacks against the rest of the party. The druid has gained a phenomenal defensive ability but has not really gained much offensive omph. This at the price of not having the high level spells just does not seem worth it to me.
Especially considering that much of the time - until the mid levels anyway - your druid is throwing a wrench into your carefully laid plans because you had not considered the ramifications of what would happen in a Polar Bear Grappled the BBEG, a Rhino ran it over or a Dinosaur swallowed it. In other words a lot of the time the druids wild shape is messing with you not because of its damage output - most animals are pretty midling in that department, but because of its physical heft and the fact that the druid player is now throwing its weight around. The catch here is that Uncarnates make themselves weightless. They get touch attacks out of the deal but that probably does not make up for loosing the free trip attempt if the tail slap hits. I guess what I'm saying is that more often then not the Uncarnates schtick works at cross purposes with the Druids schtick. Better to be a straight up psion, go incorporeal and then use psionic powers to mess the the bad guys.
well guys what happened was he has a dinasaur familiar and during the first encounter summoned a dire boar, wolverine, and wildshaped into a dire lion. not to mention the fact that his raptor kills stuff extrememly well, his only roleplaying so far was playing a non verbal parrot, how would i bait him into roleplaying more, also im starting to think we dont mesh well ill give it a few more trys though and see how it goes.
well guys what happened was he has a dinasaur familiar and during the first encounter summoned a dire boar, wolverine, and wildshaped into a dire lion. not to mention the fact that his raptor kills stuff extrememly well, his only roleplaying so far was playing a non verbal parrot, how would i bait him into roleplaying more, also im starting to think we dont mesh well ill give it a few more trys though and see how it goes.
I get the impression that 'overpowered' is less an issue here then the fact that you guys might be really looking for two different style games. Not sure that one can tell the personality of ones druid player from what they summon but if you can then this is a very basic kick ass and take names style. None of the creatures mentioned are at all subtle. Their really not bad choices and if I were playing a druid I might have fun with a menagerie like the above but every one of them relies on getting in close to the enemy and ripping him apart with basic physical melee attacks. Lots and lots of ways of countering this tactic as its just so very basic.
any suggestions on countering?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Cheap low-level option - Give the bad guys some tanglefoot bags and a bow or two?
Plenty of 'crowd-control' spells to keep his animals out of melee. I know if I saw a raptor or Dire Lion heading towards me, I'd think of some way of slowing it down! Trip it and use reach weapons for plenty of AoOs when it tries to get up.
Plenty of spells too to either slow them down or avoid their attacks: Web it. Hold Animal, Grease, Sleep, Hypnotism, Colour Spray, Animal Trance, Glitterdust, Hypnotic Pattern, Cause Fear, Obscuring Mist, Darkness, Blur, Mirror Image, Scare...
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The druid is indeed a powerful class, but the class must be played appropriately. Often times, players will ignore the subtleties that go with being a druid and the DM will let them do it out of ignornace of these subtleties. Here are a few things to keep in mind when dealing with druids:
Regarding Wildshape:
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
If the druid hasn't encountered a dire lion before, he should not be able to wildshape into one. Look over the druid's background and determine what animals he likely would have encountered and restrict his wildshape list to that. This is not to punish the player, but he can't very well have encountered a dire lion before if he has lived in the deep forest his entire life, as they are creatures of the plains.
Regarding the Animal Companion:
This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.
The animal companion is just that, an animal. It is not a familiar. The druid cannot speak to the animal without using a spell, and even if he did, the animal still has a very low intelligence. The animal companion cannot perform complex actions, it simply lacks the intelligence to do so (see the Handle Animal skill for the number and types of actions an animal companion can do). Furthermore, the phrase "appropriate for its kind" is critical. A dinosaur is cold blooded, so I assume that the druid lives in a warm area where the dinosaur can live (or casts a spell daily on the dinosaur to prevent it from laying down and dying or becoming lethargic in the cool weather). The dinosaur is also still a meat eater, the raptor especially is a viscous hunter. Now if that raptor was allowed to eat humans during combat, what do you think a hungry raptor will do when it sees one? The right answer is think: Lunchtime! and move after the human, which may be the druid's best friend. Thus the druid must Handle Animal to order it down, passive, heel or some other trick it knows so that it passively follows the druid - for a time. I would add to the DC of this if the animal is not well fed, and a raptor requires a good deal of fresh raw meat. Having an animal companion is a responsibility as well as a benefit. The druid must consider this before he takes an unfed raptor into meat-rich Sharn. And this raises another point. Sure the animal is loyal to the druid, but no one else knows that. What are the general reactions to this raptor as it prowls through some civilized area? What do the guards say when a raptor approaches the gates and the druid says "Oh, he's with me, its ok." No guard worth his scabbard would let a thing like that in town unless they had knowledge that the druid was a friend and had special permission and has shown himself able to control the animal in all circumstances.
The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
The animal companion is still an animal and will not perform certain actions without a considerable investment in training. It only attacks enemies it can sense with its senses and won't go after weird enemies.
Handle an Animal - This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
The druid must use a Free Action to handle his animal and order it to perform a trick. This involves a Handle Animal check using the druid's handle Animal skill. If the check fails, the animal will not obey the druid. If the druid hasn't invested in Handle Animal, this becomes a Charisma check. Failure to control a meat eater like a raptor could be disasterous.
In General:
not to mention the fact that his raptor kills stuff extrememly well
He can only have a megaraptor if he is above 10th level. Don't forget that the megaraptor is treated as Druid level -9 for its advancement on the animal companion chart. Thus the megaraptor has not advanced at all on the chart if the druid is 10th or 11th level.
When dealing with a summoner, Protection from Evil keeps all summoned creatures at bay, except for Good aligned creatures. Also opponents can levitate or fly as little as 20ft in the air to prevent the melee-heavy summoned creatures from attacking them. A dispell magic will end a summoning spell. Placing a Silence in the area really hurts, as does readying an action to attack the summoner "if he begins to cast a spell". Even getting an early Acid Arrow on a spell caster hurts because he takes damage every round and must make concentration checks to continue casting. Opponents can also use darkness on a summoned animal or his animal companion to prevent the druid and his summoned creatures or animal companion from communicating, since it will be impossible for the animal to see which target the druid wants attacked and verbal instructions are insufficient since the animals lack the intelligence to understand.
And lastly,I am not sure of the gods in Ebberon, but you have to examine the druid's choice in deities carefully to make sure he is not violating the dogma of his god when he gets into combat. The druid is not ambivalent, he dedicatedly pursues his alignment just as a cleric does. I understand you are running an evil campaign, but one way or the other, the druid will offend someone with his beliefs and they will begin to make it hard on him to be anything but a recluse. While the druid is suited for that better than anyone, the game takes a very different turn if that is what the druid chooses to do.
Druids are very powerful, and just upping the challenges to match what he can do will unbalance things for everyone else.
Some of the dinosaurs from the Eberron-specific sources are way too powerful compared to dinosaurs from the Monster Manuals. I can't remember the name of the dinosaur our group banned, but it was Medium-sized and had some sort of Pounce ability (charge and full-attack) with extra rakes, and maybe also poison - change any dinosaurs that are overpowered into Magical Beasts so they aren't available as animal companions and wildshape options.
But the main thing you need to do is talk to the player. He needs to understand that it's the responsibility of everyone in the group to make sure the whole group has fun. If he creates this character to be the Uber-PC, and he constantly steals the spotlight from everyone else, he's violating that social contract. If he's capable of reining himself in, great. If not, you probably simply shouldn't let him play a druid, because the spotlight-stealing potential is way too strong for that class.
A dinosaur is cold blooded
You are incorrect, sir, in the face of most modern evidence. For example, the growth marks in the bones of dinosaurs, similar to tree rings, are much more consistent with endothermic creatures than with exothermic ones. Likewise with the amount of passages for blood vessels inside the bones: they favor endothermic patterns. Also, the ratio of known carnivores to herbivores is more typical of mammalian patterns than of reptilian. Additionally, the MM makes no ruling on whether they are cold blooded or not.
I realize that I typically don't advocate placing much science in D&D, but this is simply a question of endothermic or exothermic; warm blooded or cold? The answer is that they are warm blooded, and this can then be taken and done with what the DM and players will in the game, with due disregard towards the science arriving at this statement. :)
EDIT- But, you are still correct that a dinosaur would typically live in a warm environment (although fossils have also been found in Antarctica, which, while not frozen solid 65 million years ago, was still cold).
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A dinosaur is cold bloodedYou are incorrect, sir, in the face of most modern evidence.
Heh, an excellent point. It is interesting for you to point this out to me in light of my strong anti-science stance in another thread. I stand corrected (I have forgotten the recent findings on dinosaur physiology) and furthermore want to hold myself up as an example of why science doesn't belong in D&D. Whenever someone (me in this case) whips out a bit of scientific info in hopes of making a point, there is always a counterpoint to be made based on new learnings or there are unintended consequences to some other portion of the game.
Touche, Saern.
any suggestions on countering?
I'm more or less repeating whats already been said but anyway...
Any kind of ranged battle or way of keeping the animals at bay would be ideal, Animals tend to have good hps but low ACs so enemies can use more attacks or power attack and still expect to hit. The different nasties are more or less powerful and recognizing which is which is a good idea. That Wolverine was probably a non-factor unless it was flanking or some such. Spells or abilities that hinder movement or attack intelligence are effective. Area effect spells are often very good against animals.
Things like gaze attacks are exceptional - the animal won't understand to avert its eyes and will activly kill itself.
If the druid is facing organized opposition try having the front line defenders take full defence actions, while the rear blasts away with range weapons and spells.
The druid is super vulnerable during the casting of this spell. Its a full round action to cast. Attack the druid wile he is standing around muttering to humself and waiving his hands around.
Essentially
* disrupt their mobility so they have a hard time closing
* attack their intelligence using stat draining spells, poisons or abilities
* hammer them all with area effect spells and abilities
* understand which of them are dangerous and which can be ignored until later
* keep them at a distance and use range attacks
* exploit their weak ACs by either attacking more often with less chance to hit, attacking harder with less chance to hit or increasing your own defence while not serously compromising your chance to hit