The Underneath!
The Under Where?
Underwear?
Elcian
Well, they aren't using the d20 License, they're using the OGL.
So there won't be a d20 logo on Pathfinder? Is the assumption that prospective buyers will just know that it's for D&D? Or that retailers will direct customers to it?
How about simply the UnderRealms?
In my experience, there are vast swaths of the UnderDark, that really aren't all that dark, what with phosporescent fungi and liquid hot magma and magical ligth shows (the better to lure in wandering adventurers). I presume it really will not be all that lightless, especially not if there are trade routes and such. For enterprising merchants and monarchs, I can see it as the delineation of certain nations or regions, hence "realms". And of course, each region might have its own commone name, leaving room for truly 'dark' areas.
Contributor
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So there won't be a d20 logo on Pathfinder? Is the assumption that prospective buyers will just know that it's for D&D? Or that retailers will direct customers to it?
There will not be a d20 logo on Pathfinder. Scuttlbutt has it that retailers say the d20 logo possesses a certain stigma associated with it these days, so we're avoiding it.
That said, it is in our best interest (and in the best interest of our retailer friends) to make it abundantly clear that Pathfinder is compatible with the world's most popular fantasy roleplaying game. So we hope our retailer friends push Pathfinder, since selling it is a win-win for Paizo and the retailers. :)
Is the assumption that prospective buyers will just know that it's for D&D? Or that retailers will direct customers to it?
Is what for D&D? Pathfinder is for OGL, there is no "D&D".
See folks, this is the underlying issue. "D&D" is a brand name and a WotC RPG game built on the d20 system, just like d20 Modern uses the d20 system, just like Monte Cook's AE is built on the d20 system.
Pathfinder in essence will be its own entitiy that can be played within its own copyrighted material or incorporated into ANY d20 system, to include D&D. But, it is not just for "D&D", and we need to get past the branding convention.
It's interesting that people are talking about naming conventions. It always strikes me as odd how people need to associate Pathfinder's subterranean regions (or anything else) with what has gone before name wise. This is just one of the reasons (neglecting religion or popular culture) why people feel the need to include the word "under" in the title. I'm sorry, but Underworld or any other word starting with under is just crap. It shows nothing in the way of imagination.
I think that Paizo needs to think completely outside the box and call it something drastically different. Make the name cool, but drastically different. This is why names such as The Endless Night or the Lightless Depths need to be turfed. Instead, I'd go with the suggestions that are a little more eccentric, such as Lamashtu's Lair or something similar.
Perhaps we should just let James Jacobs name it, since most of the names from the Pathfinder campaign world come from his old campaign anyway. Unless of course James simply called it the Underdark as well. :-)
I wanted to scream UnderOerth after reading the first few posts, but hey,
BenS.. you go girl!Anyway. Underrealms sounds good.
I'm a guy, actually :)
I'd already asked in a different thread about Pathfinder being set in a different area of our beloved Oerth...no go. Apparently WOTC owns the whole kit and kaboodle, not just the NE tip of Oerik.
Back on topic: After reading this thread further, my choices would be--in no particular order--Underdark (for the sake of continuity); something outside-the-box, like a descriptive phrase (e.g., if X is the Death God/dess in the new world, then "X's something"; I'm just not fond of "Lamashtu's Lair", mentioned earlier); or maybe not have one set word.
I mean, like different races would refer to it in their own way. Just a thought.
Why use any term at all? D&D existed without a term for underground areas for years (until the publication of the Forgotten Realms) with no problem.
Rather than an entire "world" underground, I'd rather see a new version of the old-school ideas. Back in the day, underground cities and regions were relatively isolated from each other. This allowed designers to use varied cultures, races, and creatures without worrying about how they 'fit in' with underground communities in other areas.
I never did like the idea that the Drow controlled the underdark and could conceivably be within striking range of any given surface city. While I can see the usefulness of wide-ranging and interconnected passages from a design perspective, I'd rather not see a world where there's a single entity or race that controls the realms below. If underground races and civilizations exist in the new Pathfinder world, I'd prefer them to be more-or-less isolated enclaves.
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I second that idea. While the concept of an Underdark is probably essential to any D&D world worth its salt, Paizo has the opportunity here to take the idea and run, to push the boundaries of what such a relam can be. Surely, there are some concepts that need to be incorporated to cleave to a baseline D&D mentality (read: not alienate the bulk of the fan/customer base). But these concepts needn't be limitations. Why not define their new setting by pushing ideas in new directions? It certainly was a formula for success with Malhavoc Press.
Except for Eberron. Nasty aberrations and cultints live in Kyber, not drow.
Except for Eberron.
I know a lot of folk love Eberron, but I for one will be glad that Paizo will not be eligible to print or support any Eberron material. WotC can keep it...blah.
Eberron..yuck...fooy. Soooo looking forward to Paizo's new world.
Can you tell I don't like Eberron? ; )
Why use any term at all? D&D existed without a term for underground areas for years (until the publication of the Forgotten Realms) with no problem.
Acutally, the term Underdark was first used, if I recall correctly, in Doug Niles' Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (1st Edition), which predates the Forgotten Realms as a Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting.
Acutally, the term Underdark was first used, if I recall correctly, in Doug Niles' Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (1st Edition), which predates the Forgotten Realms as a Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting.Why use any term at all? D&D existed without a term for underground areas for years (until the publication of the Forgotten Realms) with no problem.
I stand corrected. I forgot about that one. Excuse me while I self-flagellate.
Actually, I don't really care much what they call it. I want it to SCARE me. Mr. Baur, is there any way to send the empire of the ghouls from that fantastic Dungeon adventure (with serial numbers filed off of course) of several years past.
Now THAT was an underdark!
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Excuse me while I self-flagellate.
Just as long as we can make videos of you doing so and upload them to youtube.
Also, while you're at it can you also flagellate this guy....
"Aweemawap, aweemawap, aweemawap, aweemawap"
"Hush now Frodo, don't cry Pippin, the Baalrog sleeps tonite."
You are soooo evil. *shudders*
Excuse me while I self-flagellate.Just as long as we can make videos of you doing so and upload them to youtube.
Too late. It's been done.
Kobold Press
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Actually, I don't really care much what they call it. I want it to SCARE me. Mr. Baur, is there any way to send the empire of the ghouls from that fantastic Dungeon adventure (with serial numbers filed off of course) of several years past.
Now THAT was an underdark!
Sorry for the necrothread bump, but caught this late.
Actually, I'm writing that as an OGL release called "Empire of the Ghouls". 128 pages. A whole section on ghoul magic and society, some massive encounters for a big plot, 8 new monsters related to the underdark, and beautiful maps and illos throughout.
It's my current Open Design project. Should be sent to patrons (but not anyone else) around September. Sign up today, you'll see it as it comes together.
The Sunless Realms
The Dark Realms
The Netherdark
The Nether Realms
The Lands Below
The Black HollowsWhatever. Underdark is almost as generic as underworld. Why don't they copyright the terms "longsword" and "sorcerer" while they're at it? Anybody remember what C.S. Lewis used in the "Silver Chair"?
Edit: answer: Underland
Or
Evernight (my favorite)
The Delve
Stonedeep
Deep Realms
Grimdeep
Stonewastes
The Burrows (disparaging)
- or a made up work in Dwarvish/Orcish/Kobold that has been co-opted among all races for some reason - the etymology of the word could be fun
Can I design it please - please can I - can I please - I'll make it great scary and great - lost civilizations, new monsters (with new abilties), buried gods, imprisoned elementals...
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There will not be a d20 logo on Pathfinder. Scuttlbutt has it that retailers say the d20 logo possesses a certain stigma associated with it these days, so we're avoiding it.
That said, it is in our best interest (and in the best interest of our retailer friends) to make it abundantly clear that Pathfinder is compatible with the world's most popular fantasy roleplaying game. So we hope our retailer friends push Pathfinder, since selling it is a win-win for Paizo and the retailers. :)
Sorry for chiming in so late!
I'd hope so!
The game being played is still D&D, whatever you call it... ;-)
That being said, I feel sad that retailers would feel that way about the d20 logo: How are people to know that PF is D&D compatible?
And would you call books like Ptolus stigmated due to the d20 logo on them? ;-)
The reasoning sounds flawed:
If a computer game is IBM compatible, does it mean that it is a bad game and sells bad, just because IBM computers could be considered "stigmated" by some people?
Wouldn't people be able to recognize quality, especially if it is "dressed" in graphics and high quality binding as Paizo is known to do?
I'd have more problems with the term OGL. Until the news of PF being created I didn't even know that their was anything like OGL. For me like many other players, D&D is the WotC product, and d20 stands for compatible 3rd company content. Introducing another expression for the same kind of product first of all causes one thing: confusion.
I believe in the quality of PF because I know which kind of quality products you are able to create. It will definitely find its customers, and they will recognize its quality. If they are able to find out that PF is d20/ D&D compatible, is another question, though...
Greetings,
Günther
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Yeah... the whole issue surrounding the Underdark's name is pretty hazy and weird.
Suffice to say, there will be an Underdark equivalent in our setting. As to what it's going to be called... I'm not sure yet. Sounds like a good topic for an upcoming Friday Paizo Brainstorm Meeting (TM)!
The material plane is infinite and flat. The "underdark" is the other side.
The "underdark" is the inside of the hollow sphere planet. It is the god Asmodeus' realm.
My 2cp for your Friday Paizo Brainstorm Meeting (TM)
The Underdark's where the sun don't shine...right?...right?!
I burn me!
That Satan...what a clever devil he is!
"The Great Below"
Acutally, the term Underdark was first used, if I recall correctly, in Doug Niles' Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (1st Edition), which predates the Forgotten Realms as a Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting.
I had all but forgotten about the 1st edition survival guides. I am going to have to dig mine out now.
The Dungeoneer's Survival Guide was a great suppliment. I personally love caves and caverns. I have been to Carlsbad twice and Mammoth Caves once (and umerous smaller cave systems). I always walk away from them with game ideas. I would really love to see a deep cavern adventure with the dangers that come with those areas.
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Kobold Press
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I personally love caves and caverns. I have been to Carlsbad twice and Mammoth Caves once (and umerous smaller cave systems). I always walk away from them with game ideas. I would really love to see a deep cavern adventure with the dangers that come with those areas.
I'm so with you! Ever since I saw Carlsbad and later some caves and cenotes in the Yucatan, I've been fascinated. The deep cavern of Krubera is what inspired the falling river in "Gathering of Winds".
I'm putting all my cave-o-philia into Empire of the Ghouls right now: sulfur rivers, chandelier caverns, vertical sections, and so on. Lots of fun with those kinds of hazards, as long as they are combined with, oh, derro, drow, ghouls and dragons. :)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Oh, oh, how about the Nether Regions?
"Your group descends deep into the gash within the earth, the steamy smell of mold and dirt mixes into a disgusting odor that assaults your senses as you press further in. Only a few feet within the entrance, you are surrounded by darkness on all sides. This truly is 'the place where the sun don't shine.' You have entered... the NETHER REGIONS!"
Oh, oh, how about the Nether Regions?"Your group descends deep into the gash within the earth, the steamy smell of mold and dirt mixes into a disgusting odor that assaults your senses as you press further in. Only a few feet within the entrance, you are surrounded by darkness on all sides. This truly is 'the place where the sun don't shine.' You have entered... the NETHER REGIONS!"
My group consists of 30-something professionals, but there is absolutely no way I could get that past them without plenty of snarky remarks. :D
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I'm so with you! Ever since I saw Carlsbad and later some caves and cenotes in the Yucatan, I've been fascinated. The deep cavern of Krubera is what inspired the falling river in "Gathering of Winds".
Don't forget Cappadocia -- the underground cities are amazing.
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Contributor
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There will not be a d20 logo on Pathfinder. Scuttlbutt has it that retailers say the d20 logo possesses a certain stigma associated with it these days, so we're avoiding it.
That said, it is in our best interest (and in the best interest of our retailer friends) to make it abundantly clear that Pathfinder is compatible with the world's most popular fantasy roleplaying game. So we hope our retailer friends push Pathfinder, since selling it is a win-win for Paizo and the retailers. :)
[snip]
I'd have more problems with the term OGL. Until the news of PF being created I didn't even know that their was anything like OGL. For me like many other players, D&D is the WotC product, and d20 stands for compatible 3rd company content. Introducing another expression for the same kind of product first of all causes one thing: confusion.
[snip]
I suspect that there's more to it than that.
The d20 license has more restrictions than the OGL in terms of what can be included, evne though it has the advantage of allowing direct reference to the Core Rules.
There has been a movement among many 3rd party publishers to make "OGL" into a recognizable brand. Mongoose has "OGL" Rule books equivelant to the PHB, DMG and d20 modern in pocket size.
Also the d20 license can be altered and/or revoked by WotC. In fact, it has been altered at least once, causing great expense to publishers as they had to cease publishing products that no longer fit the license.
I know that this is a touchy issue, but if 4th edition comes out, the d20 license will at least be altered if not removed completely, meaning all 3rd party d20 products will have to cease publication. OGL on the other hand, can never be cancelled or altered.
With rumours of 4E common (whether they are true or not doesn't matter), I bet many retailers and distributors are leery of signing on to a new d20 product that they believe may be cancelled as early as August (the current popular rumour for 4E)
Plus, many customers are already becoming wary of buying anything until the dust settles. People don't want to buy something and have the support plug pulled, and be stuck with something obsolete.
I realize that there is a significant base that doesn't believe that 4E is coming, or hasn't heard the rumours, and would still prefer/ recognize a d20 product over an OGL product, but the numbers are shifting.
Craig Shackleton,
The Rambling Scribe
Words can't be owned. Heck, this is why Lucasfilm's attempts to protect the term "Nazi" were laughed out of court.
Threadjack Alert!
Please clue me in; When did Lucasfilm attempt to copyright the word Nazi, and WHY?
Words can't be owned. Heck, this is why Lucasfilm's attempts to protect the term "Nazi" were laughed out of court.Threadjack Alert!
Please clue me in; When did Lucasfilm attempt to copyright the word Nazi, and WHY?
I am going to guess it has something to do with Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark -- if I am correct (which I may not be, I have done no checking) that is a Lucasfilm . . .um . . .film. Oh yea, with Nazi's, if I recall.
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I suspect that there's more to it than that.The d20 license has more restrictions than the OGL in terms of what can be included, evne though it has the advantage of allowing direct reference to the Core Rules.
There has been a movement among many 3rd party publishers to make "OGL" into a recognizable brand. Mongoose has "OGL" Rule books equivelant to the PHB, DMG and d20 modern in pocket size.
Also the d20 license can be altered and/or revoked by WotC. In fact, it has been altered at least once, causing great expense to publishers as they had to cease publishing products that no longer fit the license.
I know that this is a touchy issue, but if 4th edition comes out, the d20 license will at least be altered if not removed completely, meaning all 3rd party d20 products will have to cease publication. OGL on the other hand, can never be cancelled or altered.
With rumours of 4E common (whether they are true or not doesn't matter), I bet many retailers and distributors are leery of signing on to a new d20 product that they believe may be cancelled as early as August (the current...
Hello Craig,
thanks for this insight.
I read some of the 4th edition rumours, but so far nobody seems to be really in the know.
I am one of those guys who collected a huge stack of D&D/ d20/ OGL books during the last few years. *If* 4th edition should be incompatible to 3.5 and/ or d20/ OGL books, my decision would be an easy one: staying true to 3.5 and OGL material which should keep on coming out, shouldn't it?
What is bothering me most, is therefore the question if Paizo will be able to keep on publishing high quality content for 3.5/ OGL after a release of a 4th edition. And your answer pretty much summed it up. I am looking forward to many years of OGL (i.e. 3.5 compatible) Paizo products!
Greetings,
Günther
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I am going to guess it has something to do with Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark -- if I am correct (which I may not be, I have done no checking) that is a Lucasfilm . . .um . . .film. Oh yea, with Nazi's, if I recall.Words can't be owned. Heck, this is why Lucasfilm's attempts to protect the term "Nazi" were laughed out of court.Threadjack Alert!
Please clue me in; When did Lucasfilm attempt to copyright the word Nazi, and WHY?
Sounds like a "brilliant" idea. As likely to succeed as copyrighting the terms confederated/ unionist, isn't it?
Greetings,
Günther
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Kobold Press
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Please clue me in; When did Lucasfilm attempt to copyright the word Nazi, and WHY?I am going to guess it has something to do with Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark -- if I am correct (which I may not be, I have done no checking) that is a Lucasfilm . . .um . . .film. Oh yea, with Nazi's, if I recall.
Correct! It's an obscure moment from the TSR days, when TSR had the license to produce Indiana Jones RPG. The Lucasfilm people insisted that the word "Nazi" was a Lucasfilm trademark and/or copyright (I can't really say WHY, you'd have to ask them). TSR tried to talk them out of it.
IIRC, Lucasfilm did force TSR to print the trademark statemark, but it was unenforcable. Lucasfilm was a bit of a laughingstock at TSR for a few months, and then it blew over.
We don't have a name for it yet. The reason we have to change it is because the term is WotC's intellectual property.
Then you need a thread to name it.
Mariners call the bottom of the ocean, "Davy Jones' Locker"...and a variety of name stemming from a similar mythos.
Tagging off of that tradition, I nominate, "Mohbad's Cellar"
The Darkunder!
Boblinithistarku
or Bob for short.