Hey guys, just started running the Age of Worms last week, so far so good, but I'm worried about whether they can handle the meat-grinder that is TfoE. They had a lot of trouble with the traps in the WC due to there lack of rouge. I don't like killing P.C.s due to how much time and effort my players put into them but I will kill a character if they do something really dumb. I just wanted your opinion (which I hold in the highest of regard) on whether or not they can survive the AOW AP.
Human Fighter 2 (Archer through and through, down to earth town watchman)
Human Archivist 2 (Support Caster/Knowledge tank...they know everything)
Human Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1 (Crazy infernal heritage, misunderstood, CG demon worshiper...my favorite character right now)
Human Samurai 2 (Very seven samurai old school ronin)
Thanks
Human Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1 (Crazy infernal heritage, misunderstood, CG demon worshiper...my favorite character right now)
Problem with AoW is that it requires a totally-optimized party to tackle. A sorcerer/cleric probably isn't going to be nearly as good as a straight wizard or sorcerer, in the long run. I'm finding that to be true of the APs in general; there's not a lot of room for characters who aren't min-maxed out the door (even though those are my favorites, too).
I'm running the AoW with a group of five PCs. There were six but a player had to quit due to job. Even at six players it was tough but no TPKs. They have 2 1/2 adv left to finish it and I almost killed two of them last week(The big carrion crawler thingie) I gave them a freebie on it.
For your game I suggest giving the party some henchmen to fill "traditional" roles.
My party of four made it through with a somewhat non-standard configuration (Clr/Rgr, Paladin, Bard/Swashbuckler, Transmuter), but they were 3rd level when they started, and had 3 near-TPKs--when they got locked in the battle-temple, when they split up while trying to deal with the grimlock archers on the ledge and inadvertently stumbled into chokers and a mad barbarian, and when the aspect emerged from the pool just after a grueling battle with TFO and his minions. What got them through alive was that 3 of 4 could use a CLW wand, and they started with a fully charged one and got a backup in the Hextor temple. I play one on one, though, and run two of the above as DMPCs, so YMMV.
The advice I'd give is
1) give them an opportunity to get to 3rd level before they start (side quest, DM fiat, have Kullen's gang provoke a fight, or whatever).
2) make sure they have lots of healing power. You can have Melinde from the garrison (stats in the AoW overload) accompany them if necessary. Make sure they have a CLW wand and plenty of cure potions if you have to give them away for free or have Allustan pack it in their lunchbox with their bologna sandwich.
3) if they are relative newbs, or even if they just don't have a lot of tactical acumen, don't be afraid to give them a few hints. This adventure contains numerous very interesting tactical challenges for an experienced group, but I think it's very tough for those who aren't solid tacticians.
4) nerf the BBEGs slightly, don't play them quite as tough, and/or cut down on the numbers of mooks to make the deadliest encounters a bit less challenging and avoid burning quite so many resources before the climactic encounter. The toughest part of this adventure (besides the terrain-related challenges) is just that each segment is built to stretch the PCs resources to the utmost. If the party isn't completely judicious in their use of resources, or if they have bad luck or a misstep that burns up more than expected, they are toast when they get to that sections BBEG. This is especially true if you run the final segment as written, where the party has time to heal up, grab the treasure from TFO and put a little of it to use, and then bang--in comes the aspect.
You can see my campaign log to get an idea of how my party handled these challenges.
"They had a lot of trouble with the traps in the WC due to there lack of rouge."
I wouldn't worry about your PCs not having the requisite amount of cherry-colored blush before heading into TFoE.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Better me breaking it to you that its 'Rogue' than FH lambasting you for it! :)
A party of PCs is only as screwed as the DM lets them be. If you think they are screwed, they are screwed.
Adjust the encounters and adventures to fit your players. With no rogue, but two fighters and two casters, it may indicate they prefer combat and problem-solving to trap dismantling. Their choices of character tell you what they expect from the campaign. In the end, it is your job to give it to them. Sure, there will be unexpected additions, but at the end of the day, you have to look at what people want to get out of the game session and what kind of stories are being told. If the adventure calls for a trap and your players don't get excited about finding and overcoming traps, replace it with an obstacle of some sort or a creature encounter.
Also remember, as the DM, dice don't really matter. Your focus is entertaining the players. I know there are some purists out there who would string me up for uttering such blasphemy, but it is really true. Sometimes a spectacular character death has to happen; but sometimes it is more memorable when the character just scrapes by and narrowly avoids catastrophe.
For example (spoilers), my players were exploring the true tomb in the Whispering Cairn, only to get skewered by the wind warriors. It was nasty; halfway through the first round, one character was in negative hit points and about to bleed out and others sorely wounded. Right at the end of the round, on the last player's turn, he yelled out, "I attempt to disbelieve!"
It was desperate. It was brilliant. I told him to roll a Will save, which he rolled very highly. Suddenly in my campaign, the encounter became not with ancient guardians, but an ancient magical illusion. He spread the word, Will saves all around, and everyone came to his way of thinking. Was it by the rules, by what was written or by the dice? No. Is it still talked about today, months later, about how those illusory warriors nearly TPKed the party? Oh yeah!
You are the DM. If the players are going to suffer because their choices in characters don't exactly fit the mold of what the adventure was written for, there is no one else to blame. The DM has the ability to make the adventure everything for every player. It is hard to get right, and you'll make plenty of mistakes, but don't be afraid to do it. Think fast and entertain your players. Your PCs aren't screwed; instead, you've been challenged. Can you make the adventure entertaining, and survivable, for their choice in characters?
Three Faces of Evil is one of my favorite adventures because it rewards resourceful and versatile PCs, and punishes those who are too predisposed to hanging around, saving gold for stat boosters, and just waiting to jump into that prestige class a few levels down the way.
Your party looks sound, but what it comes down to is how prepared is your party for a real dungeon crawl? Alchemist's fire, rope, sunrods, tindertwigs, and all that stuff are practically essential. Furthermore, one of my inventive players used pints of oil (PHB p. 127) to make crude oil bombs, when he wasn't using his spells. Another cast a light spell on a coin, and put it in his mouth, allowing him to shut or open his mouth to provide illumination as needed, without having to spare a hand slot. (Technically, it should have still illuminated within his mouth, but it was so darned clever, I went with it.) The fighter made liberal use of his spiked chain weapon to trip opponents at reach, thus giving the party the tactical advantage they needed against so many humanoid opponents. And believe me, it's kill or be killed down there. Just make sure you've got potions, oils, and all those other things your players tend to overlook, whilst saving up for that cloak of charisma +2, or whatever.
Other items I would recommend: potions of cure light wounds, lesser restoration, false life, darkvision; scrolls of web, magic missile, and color spray; maybe even a pearl of power (1st), but scribe scroll is better for economic spell access.
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A half-full wand of cure light wounds will go a long way to helping the "non-traditional" party configuration survive below the Dourstone Mine.
Not to sound like a skipping record but make use of the Search Engine for the AoW forum. There have been a number of threads on how to survive the Three Faces of Evil adventure and should help you think of ways to adjust the scenario so your players can rest/recoup/survive/win the day.
This thread may help you rationalize the motives of the antagonists and allow the PCs a chance to rest between temples. From this tweak, the players are paranoid of killing cultists; even in The Champion's Belt the PCs are paranoid of killing gladiators/blue cloaks for fear of feeding another Aspect.
Another cast a light spell on a coin, and put it in his mouth, allowing him to shut or open his mouth to provide illumination as needed, without having to spare a hand slot. (Technically, it should have still illuminated within his mouth, but it was so darned clever, I went with it.)
I have a player who does this all the time. He fights with twin whips and keeps the coin in his teeth for light.
Another cast a light spell on a coin, and put it in his mouth, allowing him to shut or open his mouth to provide illumination as needed, without having to spare a hand slot. (Technically, it should have still illuminated within his mouth, but it was so darned clever, I went with it.)I have a player who does this all the time. He fights with twin whips and keeps the coin in his teeth for light.
Has anybody ever tried to run around more than a minute with a dime in his mouth beside wading into combat or be engaged in other physical action? You normally should roll a Reflex save every few seconds not to swallow it or let it drop off your mouth AND a Fortitude save vs drowning in mouth-water AND a Will save against the urge to spit out that metallic tasting stuff.
Human Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1 (Crazy infernal heritage, misunderstood, CG demon worshiper...my favorite character right now)Problem with AoW is that it requires a totally-optimized party to tackle. A sorcerer/cleric probably isn't going to be nearly as good as a straight wizard or sorcerer, in the long run. I'm finding that to be true of the APs in general; there's not a lot of room for characters who aren't min-maxed out the door (even though those are my favorites, too).
I am a PC in the Adventure Right now and you right you need a Rouge, we had one but he quite showing up and we are have been loosing out on a lot of easy opportunitys, the Party I am in is 2 Paladin's, 2 Cleric's, Scout, and thanks to Steph, we have a Dragon Fire Adept, Rouge. It has helped but it would be nice to have that 6 Level Theif. We have had one serious PC death in the Caves of Erythnul in the mines. But I agree no one Plays the game to die unless they are doing stupid things. Just do what you do and Im sure they will have a blast Great Adventure. Savage Tides Adventure is also unbeliveable personally I like it better. Good luck with the Adventure
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I am a PC in the Adventure Right now and you right you need a Rouge, we had one but he quite showing up and we are have been loosing out on a lot of easy opportunitys, the Party I am in is 2 Paladin's, 2 Cleric's, Scout, and thanks to Steph, we have a Dragon Fire Adept, Rouge.....
Between the OP and Mr. Moonshine here.....
R-O-G-U-E....rogue, not rouge! Rouge is a red coloring or make-up! Rogue is a sneaky, agile CORE CLASS!!Thank Reach for trying to gently educate the un, but this screamed of a thorough verbal purple nurple.
FH
My party of 6 is quiete far in the path without a rogue. They "only" have a bard that focusses his skill points on perform, Bluff, Sense Motive and so on, but very little on Open Lock and such.
You see, its possible without the sneaky stuff..
Problem with AoW is that it requires a totally-optimized party to tackle. A sorcerer/cleric probably isn't going to be nearly as good as a straight wizard or sorcerer, in the long run.
This depends heavily on the group. The party I am running consists of a half-elf savant/archavist, a human battle dancer, a human marshal/human paragon/artificer, and a kobold ninja/kobold paragon/sorcerer. The marshall has a warforged knight as a henchmen.
We are currently in The Gathering of Winds and the only deaths have been the warforged and the half-elf. The marhall's player is real good about knowning when the party as reached its limits (sometimes he knows the limits of the other characters better than their own players). He is also good at seeing possible threats. This has saved the party a number of times by itself. Also, the Archavist's knowledge skills and dark knowledge ability is unbelieveably useful in turning the tide in some of the harder battles. If anything AoW is made for an Archavist. As a DM, you will have to provide spells for them (much like you have to for a wizard). An 8th level Archavist with a good roll can add up to +3d6 on damage rolls against a creature. This can turn a tough fight into a much easier one.
In general, an unusual group cannot rely on the normal group tactics ans succeed in the APs. They have to make opponents fight on their terms. If your party can do that, then they may succeed.
Has anybody ever tried to run around more than a minute with a dime in his mouth beside wading into combat or be engaged in other physical action? You normally should roll a Reflex save every few seconds not to swallow it or let it drop off your mouth AND a Fortitude save vs drowning in mouth-water AND a Will save against the urge to spit out that metallic tasting stuff.
No, but then I've never tried to cast a spell or extract a burrowing green worm from someone's brain with nothing more than a peasant's education and a medieval "health kit". But hey, each of us has to draw the line of suspension of disbelief somewhere, right?
Regarding the OP.
How much trouble your PCs are in is dependent on the DMs style. If you roll everything in the open and never fudge a die or monster ability your players are going to have some trouble. If your bad guys never roll anything above a 1 (behind the screen of course) to hit if the players are in a bad way and simply stop using their better abilities - well I predict our hero's will find that they can handle whatever the DM throws at them.
That said if you are a hardcore 'old school' style DM in which the players are meant to overcome obstacles or die trying - well then this party is going to be somewhat under par. That said, in a campaign with a hard core DM you can always bring in a better suited character after your first one dies and as a side bonus characters created after 1st level loose that organic feel but are usually actually more powerful as its easier to pick up really great combo's if you did not have to suffer through many levels of having sub par stats just waiting for that pay off.
For example, I have yet to see a player earn Whirlwind Attack but I've certainly seen that feat in use by characters made up later when picking up all the prereqs was painless.
If you want to try and split the difference and run a hard core no holds barred game but also want you players to usually live (why any DM would want that is beyond my ken but YMMV) you have a number of options. Allowing an unusually high point buy and lots of splat book options makes the party more powerful. The weak point with this option is that they are not that much more powerful early on but become a heck of a lot more powerful later in the campaign when they can really capitalize on all that min-maxing they have done. For example a Paladins Divine Grace (Charisma bonus to all saves) ability is a great deal better if said Paladin had lots of extra points to pump into a high charisma and can expect to have a really high bonus at later levels.
Another option is to start the players out at higher level. This gives them more durability, especially during the early levels when players are particularly vulnerable and its hard to use magic items to compensate for weak points in the party. As a side bonus they should slowly slide into roughly the correct level as time goes on and they eventually start earning a little less XP per encounter due to their higher level.
The final option is access to some charged items early on. This makes them significantly better in the opening stages - though still very vulnerable to some bad dice rolls. Once their charged items get used up however their standard issue characters for their level.