Hi :)
I'm currently DM'ing in the middle of the Age of Worms campaign (the group just started exploring the Spire of Long Shadows), and I've been reading on a bit.
The additional help the party will likely get for the encounters with Dragotha, and to a lesser extent with Kyuss, has me a little worried that those encounters will end up being too easy. For those of you that have run through the last two adventures, is my hunch correct? Is Balakarde's spirit fragments and fighting despair in Alhaster making these encounters overly easy on the party? I don't want to be building up hype towards fighting powerful dracoliches and demigods if they're going to be walkovers :)
If this is the case, what would be the best way to tone down the spirit fragments and the results of fighting despair?
While I feel the fight with Dragotha would have been a sufficient challenge for most groups, the fight with Kyuss becomes ridiculously easy for a group as written, IMO. I suggest the following:
Make the fighting Alhaster and sealing the Unlife Vortex the only tangible means to make combating Kyuss a possibility. That is, with all of the magnificent artifacts at the PCs disposal--the sphere of annihilation, most notably--I believe Kyuss should be run as statted, if despair has been fought and the Unlife Vortex sealed. Sure, theoretically he's a CR 30-ish creature--with divine abilities, no less--but he's one against an average of four--likely epic--characters. Even with his all-encompassing immunities, he will be overwhelmed by a reasonably prepared party, and fast.
Another reason to make Kyuss tough-as-nails is that your players know that this is the end of the campaign. They are pulling out all the stops, using all those hoarded fate points (SoLS), artifacts, gate spells, wishes, and much more. A prayer bead of karma can give a divine caster the edge to gate in a solar with no questions asked, for instance, and with Dragotha's hoard (talismans of Zagy), Manzorian's scrolls, and--if recovered from Buldumech--Lashonna's ring of three wishes nets the party up to nine free wishes!
Even better, one of Kyuss' biggest strengths (negative energy/death spells) can easily be shut down with the simple death ward spell, and its many applications/variations. While I appreciate the verisimilitude of Kyuss' spell selection, any PC worth his salt is going into this fight with death ward up. I wouldn't hose the PCs on this, but you may need to compensate.
One thing I gave Kyuss to give him more staying power was an equivalent of Unholy Toughness...though I allowed him to keep his Constitution bonus to hit points, too. All together, this gives him a massive 1140hp. You may also want to let him keep his insight bonus to AC, though this makes even touch/ray spells practically impossible to hit him (unless True Strike/Rod of Seven Parts bonus is applied, and even then, it's unlikely). Also, consider letting him emerge from his prison without having to waste a round to do so...this hurts him big time! Combined with his already massive saves (I wouldn't up these, as they are already really high) should give you several rounds to look back fondly on as the climax of a great campaign.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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While my own campaign is still pretty far from the pivotal fight, allowing the PCs one or even two rounds of free shots is more than sufficient to force Kyuss to waste his Time Stop to heal up afterwards, if he even manages to get an action of his own. Its down to math really, and with the equipment an epic-level group can field, inflicting ~350 damage per round to Kyuss is far from difficult to them.
My own considerations run along three lines, i am not sure which is more sensible. Most likely i'll end up using the first two.
1) Lashonna is a fanatic. She knows her masters ascent is so close you can taste it, and she knows the PCs to be very dangerous, after all they have in all likelyhood slain Dragotha. So she does not engage the PCs, trying to slow them down. Broodfiends, Blessed Angels and similar are great for that. She'll wait right before the monolith, trying to buy Kyuss the time he needs to emerge.
2) Time, time, time. The timeframe is pretty generous, as written. Add more urgency and impending doom. Give them no more then three days to invade the Spire, so if they want to fight despair and shut down the vortex, they'll have to do it in a flash. This may be harsh, but it guarantees that your players won't pull a Final Fantasy VIII, and start playing cards and leveling up before challenging the final dungeon.
3) Kyuss comes into his own rapidly. To show that this literally is his age could give Kyuss an increasing divine rank with each turn. Turn 0 (emerging): DR 0, then 1, 4, 9, ... with all the abilities this entails
In any case, i plan to up his HP quite a bit (as said, 2 rounds focussed fire are more than enough to bring Kyuss down, and that's a bit too quick for my taste).
Two words: Mordenkainen's disjunction.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Two words: Mordenkainen's disjunction.
That's not going to do much good if Kyuss never gets an action in, or the casting is plain suicidal to pull off (if he's down to 50 HP, sure, the DM can be petty and pull a Disjunction, but its not going to mean anything for the fight).
Two words: Mordenkainen's disjunction.
I agree that Kyuss would've been the most appropriate NPC to use MDJ on the party (especially considering it's the last fight, so magic items that don't come back really won't result in too many tears). Still, even though his stat block kind of pigeon-holes him into an uber-heavy necromancy bent, with death ward being the end-all spell for negating his effects, I felt like it would have taken the real flavor out of a fight with Kyuss to just give him the best PC-hosing spells around. True, MDJ should be a staple spell at high-level, but with quickened greater dispels, he's able to try to remove the buffs, and still fight with his intended arsenal.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Greater Dispell probably won't cut it here, since it only removes one spell from the target area, and dispelling each PC in turn takes much too long (he'll be dead before he can meaningfully weaken the party). MDJ is too high-level to be quickened even by Kyuss, which is a shame.
Try as i may think otherwise, I believe Kyuss needs a boost from the scenario side of things, or the big finale will be a pushover.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Hmm, please tell me there is a flaw in my logic - because if there is no flaw, Kyuss doesn't survive the first turn (where he does nothing but crawl out of his monolith) against just two PCs.
I'll assume average rolls across this estimate.
He's got 660 HP. PC 1 (likely the Rogue) burns the Sphere of Annihilation to take that down to 330. The wizard casts extended Time Stop (should have the 10th level slot...), giving 7 rounds to prepare. I'm not sure what he does in round 1 and 2, but the last 5 rounds consist of 2* Assey Spell Resistance (Making penetration automatic), and 5 Empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs, all set to detonate as soon as normal time resumes. Kyuss has a Reflex Save of 23, while Empowered DBF has a save DC of 17 + Int + Boni. If the wizard has decent Int (~ 50) and maybe a few other boni, this gives a save DC in the mid-30s. I'll go with 33 for the sake of convenience, meaning he saves 2.5 of the 5 EDBF. 2.5 * 15 + 2.5 * 30 ~ 112d6 damage impact on Kyuss. This is an average "raw" damage of 392. He reduces this by 5 * his fire resist 6 - which leaves him short by 30 HP.
Maybe adding Lashonna to the fight is not enough, she'll be fried without a second thought in that conflagration.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Hmm, please tell me there is a flaw in my logic - because if there is no flaw, Kyuss doesn't survive the first turn (where he does nothing but crawl out of his monolith) against just two PCs.
I'll assume average rolls across this estimate.
He's got 660 HP. PC 1 (likely the Rogue) burns the Sphere of Annihilation to take that down to 330. The wizard casts extended Time Stop (should have the 10th level slot...), giving 7 rounds to prepare. I'm not sure what he does in round 1 and 2, but the last 5 rounds consist of 2* Assey Spell Resistance (Making penetration automatic), and 5 Empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs, all set to detonate as soon as normal time resumes. Kyuss has a Reflex Save of 23, while Empowered DBF has a save DC of 17 + Int + Boni. If the wizard has decent Int (~ 50) and maybe a few other boni, this gives a save DC in the mid-30s. I'll go with 33 for the sake of convenience, meaning he saves 2.5 of the 5 EDBF. 2.5 * 15 + 2.5 * 30 ~ 112d6 damage impact on Kyuss. This is an average "raw" damage of 392. He reduces this by 5 * his fire resist 6 - which leaves him short by 30 HP.
Maybe adding Lashonna to the fight is not enough, she'll be fried without a second thought in that conflagration.
Some pretty serious flaws on a casual reading:
* Assay resistance doesn't stack with itself (no spells do)* Extended time stop can't have a duration of 7 rounds, but I assume you're just going with the average
* The number of rounds a spell with a random duration lasts is not known to the caster, so you don't know when to make the fireballs detonate. This is a common error with time stop - you do not know when it ends. It actually makes it a good candidate for the Sudden Maximize feat, though.
* Don't know how a person gets a 50 Int in a normal game. It should typically cap out at about 36 (18 base + 2 gray elf + 6 item + 5 inherent from wishes + 5 level bumps), barring epic feats adding a point or two. If your campaign has stats that high, you'd need to boost the foes to match the power you've allowed the PCs.
Hmm, please tell me there is a flaw in my logic - because if there is no flaw, Kyuss doesn't survive the first turn (where he does nothing but crawl out of his monolith) against just two PCs.
I'll assume average rolls across this estimate.
He's got 660 HP. PC 1 (likely the Rogue) burns the Sphere of Annihilation to take that down to 330. The wizard casts extended Time Stop (should have the 10th level slot...), giving 7 rounds to prepare. I'm not sure what he does in round 1 and 2, but the last 5 rounds consist of 2* Assey Spell Resistance (Making penetration automatic), and 5 Empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs, all set to detonate as soon as normal time resumes. Kyuss has a Reflex Save of 23, while Empowered DBF has a save DC of 17 + Int + Boni. If the wizard has decent Int (~ 50) and maybe a few other boni, this gives a save DC in the mid-30s. I'll go with 33 for the sake of convenience, meaning he saves 2.5 of the 5 EDBF. 2.5 * 15 + 2.5 * 30 ~ 112d6 damage impact on Kyuss. This is an average "raw" damage of 392. He reduces this by 5 * his fire resist 6 - which leaves him short by 30 HP.
Maybe adding Lashonna to the fight is not enough, she'll be fried without a second thought in that conflagration.
1. Only arcane spellcasters can manipulate the sphere of annihilation
2. The time stop strategy is of dubious legality. Time stop has a duration of "1d4+1 rounds (apparent time)" but is effectively instantaneous to the rest of the world. Depending on which of these two durations the DM wants to apply the "extend" to, you could end up with the metamagic feat being inapplicable, or you could end up with anywhere from 3-7 rounds. Personally, I would rule that time stop is not extendable and treat it as an instantaneous spell for most purposes. It is also dubious whether you can launch a delayed blast fireball from inside a time stop. The intent of the spell is to allow extra time for buffing and summoning, or to get out of dodge.
"While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat."
Even if you rule that a delayed blast fireball can be cast from inside a time stop, and allow the time stop caster to know exactly how many rounds he has stopped time for, the caster must still set the detonation time in rounds--he can't set it for "the instant my time stop expires." That means that your victim still has a round to act before the DBFs go off. If Kyuss is stuck emerging for a full round, I suppose you've got him, but if Lashonna's there, she's a bloody dragon, she's gonna fly away and not get caught in the blast.
Anyhow, if your strategy fails (say, Kyuss gets lucky on his saves), you've just burned all of your 9th level spells (can you even cast 6 9th level spells? Only with an INT of about 56, which I don't see happening for even the most egregious powergamer), and you don't have any more big tricks to pull out of your sleeve.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Okay, addressing your points in turn. 1), you are exactly right. Sadly, the Rogue in question is an assassin, which AFAIK counts as an arcane caster.
About 2), Time Stop is listed having a 1d4+1 round duration, and therefore should be legal to use with the extend spell feat.
By the same token, i think the DBFs should be legal to cast inside the Time Stop, since (as you quoted), you trigger area effects that remain valid until the Time Stop ends. Since before the explosion, you merely place "orbs" in an area, which does not do anything until after the Time Stop ends, it should be legal. Heck if i know how stacked fireballs are supposed to work, but merely going by the rules, there is nothing preventing this cheeseout.
Usually, i allow the players to be aware of numerics - they know if someone is at almost full hit points, or how long your spells will last. Forbidding it here is once more a cheeseout.
As for the spell Slots: This "strategy" requires 2 Assays (need to look it up, i think it was level 4), 1 extended Time Stop (Level 10), 5 Empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs (Level 9). This should be possible for any epic wizard with improved Spell Capacity, and an int of 30, even though his save DC won't be up to the task.
Also keep in mind there is at least 2 more players to this party, which won't be standing there clapping, but have their own ways of increasing the hurt.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Usually, i allow the players to be aware of numerics - they know if someone is at almost full hit points, or how long your spells will last. Forbidding it here is once more a cheeseout.As for the spell Slots: This "strategy" requires 2 Assays (need to look it up, i think it was level 4), 1 extended Time Stop (Level 10), 5 Empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs (Level 9). This should be possible for any epic wizard with improved Spell Capacity, and an int of 30, even though his save DC won't be up to the task.
Again, two assays don't stack.
As for not knowing time stop's duration, it isn't a "cheeseout", it's core rules. Check your PH in the Magic Overview section. You are making the spell more powerful than it is meant to be when you ignore that portion of the rules.
The rule in question follows:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell’s duration is variable the duration is rolled secretly (the caster doesn’t know how long the spell will last).
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Excellent. This makes this whole matter a lot less static, and therefore, a lot less predictable. I wasn't aware of this rule, and it makes timing the cascade of DBFs a problem. Maximizing the Time Stop would solve this, but that would require either a level 13 slot (not easy to get), or Ultimate Cheese (a.k.a. Divine Metamagic: Maximize)
Points taken about Time Stop--I just think there's a certain amount of ambiguity the way that spell is written. Making the amount of time it lasts an unknown helps--maximized or not, there's a range of possibilities, which means you may not get as many DBFs off as you wanted to, and they're more like a ticking time bomb than an immediate nuclear blast.
The other part of that strategy is, the top of the tower is a small space--is the entire party going to be flying at the beginning of the encounter? I don't have the module handy, but I seem to recall that the weird projections on the side of the tower made it hazardous to fly in some fashion. If you're not flying, you're probably in the area of effect of the DBFs, and that many going off at once is difficult to survive, except maybe for a rogue. Even energy resist 30 and protection from energy on the entire party might not do it.
If you're letting your players use Assay Spell Resistance from the SC, you might want to consider modifying Kyuss's stat block with some additional cheese from Libris Mortis or BoVD or whatever. Unholy toughness to give him a bundle of extra hit points, etc. That way it balances.
Or maybe change the whole encounter around so that it doesn't start as a big throw-down. Maybe Kyuss can whisper to evil characters (the assassin) and tempt them while they are in the area being affected by all of those other effects that the PCs are supposed to take down.
You could also consider nerfing the soul fragments or changing the scenario so that taking down the special effects affecting Alhaster merely makes it possible to take on the most powerful version of Kyuss, and that if they fail to do that he is so powerful that Kyuss mops the floor with them if they have the guts to face him directly.
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1. Only arcane spellcasters can manipulate the sphere of annihilation
I tend to disagree about the rogue/assassin not being possible. a rogue using the Use Magic Device skill can fool a talisman of the sphere (assuming on my end that you'd be using one by emulating the ability to cast arcane spells...last time i checked that was considered a class feature) but that may be seen by some as a liberal interpetation of that aspect of Use Magic device, so a ruling by a higher authority may be required.
OK, I could concede this point, based on your line of reasoning. Not much else for a rogue to do against Kyuss anyhow. I would have the rogue make a UMD check every round, though, and increase the DC mightily, since he's messing with artifact-level magic and not your garden variety magic item. The rogue should be at a disadvantage manipulating the sphere, compared to an arcane caster.
Extreme Spoiler!
The PCs in my game were surprised that Kyuss was not undead.
He was a swarm.
This should be a surprise, or the players have been cheating.
They cannot use Prismatic spray, or they might free Kyuss to some
random plane.
If Lashona still exists she can cast Major Globe of Invunerability
while the PCs are casting Death Ward. I believe she can cast any spell
out. Then she can kill the Orb of Oblivion.
Time stop lets you cast multiple spells that then all start as soon as they leave the stopped moment. If multiple fireballs go off at once, stone melts and the top of the tower falls into the sewers. Each fireball must get pass Kyuss spell resistance seperately. He gets a reflex save vs each seperately, even if he cannot move. Whats worse, if you use a feat to make Time Stop last longer, it's a 10th level spell. Right there it requires an epic feat. You can use only one metamagic rod at a time.
In my game, Lashona was killed before the confrontation. They bottled up her mists and they timed out. They did however neglect to destroy his weapon, so that's in the sewers probably finding a weilder to turn into a Kyuss proxy. All sloppyness must be punished.
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OK, I could concede this point, based on your line of reasoning. Not much else for a rogue to do against Kyuss anyhow. I would have the rogue make a UMD check every round, though, and increase the DC mightily, since he's messing with artifact-level magic and not your garden variety magic item. The rogue should be at a disadvantage manipulating the sphere, compared to an arcane caster.
i can understand where you're coming from with that line of logic and would agree wholeheartedly with both the check each round and the DC increase....but by how much would you increase the DC? i ask, btw, because even though in my own campaign there are 2 arcane spellcasters, something could happen where they are both taken out of commission and that would leave the sphere uncontrolled. i can see the collateral damage a result like this can entail: the image of having someone else taking the talisman and being blasted for an average of 17 points of damage for holding it (consequence of not being an arcane caster)then freak out as the sphere starts slipping toward that person as they try desperately to gain control over the artifact before it annihilates them from existance makes for an interesting circumstance.
Figure out what kind of odds you want to have of the PC succeeding in controlling the sphere on a round by round basis, and set the DC accordingly. I'd shoot for a 50-50 chance, which probably means a DC of at least 35, and maybe as high as 45, depending on how maximized your rogue is in the UMD department. Your fears sound pretty cinematic to me. And if the rogue takes one for the team and meets the same heroic end that Zosiel did in the final battle of the campaign, well what could be a better way to end the campaign than a bow to the old legend presented in the first adventure!
If he gets behind Kyuss the sphere will still come after him.
What happens if you throw the talisman into the sphere and run?
Does it go after the nearest object, such as Kyuss?
These are decisions to be made by the DM and hid from PCs till the time comes.