It's alright - he doesn't bounce around too much.
But it is a pain when he has guests around for dinner.
Reggie.
It's alright - he doesn't bounce around too much.
But it is a pain when he has guests around for dinner.
Reggie.
LOL!
As an Australian, I'd just like to query F2K's claim that crime rates 'soared' here after the 1996 change to existing gun laws - I'd be curious to know the source of this claim, as I'm afraid I must have missed it. As well as the soaring increase in crime.
Reggie
I read a statistical study on it at some point. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry...it may have been funded by some gun rights outfit and skewed. It's really hard to find independent verification of anything statistical when a lot of political pressure and emotion is tied to an issue.
I'll see if I can dig it up. I do know the Texas stats are accurate though.
Edit: here it is, but it is on a right wing news website, so take it for what it's worth, I suppose. I think statistics can be twisted so much it's hard to come up with an accurate conclusion. The anti-gun crowd in America always claims that gun crime is up no matter what the Uniform Crime Reports say, so I guess people will always believe what they want to believe and neither side of an issue has a total monopoly on the truth.
All I can offer is my anecdotal evidence of 18 years of police work in the 21st largest city in the U.S. I've never been threatened or shot at by a law abiding citizen and those who have taken shots at me or those I arrested for carrying/using a weapon illegally didn't get it through legal channels. For what it's worth. Oh, I have had armed law-abiding citizens help me catch criminals on at least 4 or 5 occasions that I can recall...but it is Texas after all :)
I will offer this and then let it rest--if someone can come up with a gun law that actually works to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them, anyone other than the law-abiding, stable citizen, then I'd be all for it.
That ridiculous assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 after 10 years did absolutely nothing. 10 round magazine capacity maximum, no flash suppressors, no bayonet lugs...how the hell was that anything other than a "feel-good" measure?
Okay I'm done. Sorry....I'd never trade my freedom to protect myself and my family for the nebulous "security" of some hastily passed knee jerk reaction legislation.
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Speaking as an Irishman whose country only shook off "redcoat"oppression in the last century, I can recognise the sentiments. However, since the US military budget dwarfs the combined budgets of the next ten countries on the list, I hardly think anyone is going to invade anytime soon. We used to say "burn everything English but their coal". Times change.
I was under the impression that the right to bear arms was more linked to the right to insurrection in the face of tyranny.Bottom line, the right to bear arms is an amendment- an adjustment, a change to an existing document- the implication being that the original document was imperfect. Amendents continue to me made- so to regard a handful of hot button phrases as untouchable, set down by infallible titans is at best naive, at worst fundementalist zealotry.
The untrammeled proliferation of weaponry in a civil society is toxic to it's well being . It means that the American Dream so espoused talks the talk, but walking the walk is an entirely different matter. End of the day, it's the Law of the Gun that has the final say, and all the Gun has to say is death. That's why more then ten thousand deaths occour year in, year out due to gun violence.
I hope you realised that was sarcasm in my last post. Reading it over again, I realise it might not be obvious. I don't own a firearm and never will. I agree with every point you make here.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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All I can offer is my anecdotal evidence of 18 years of police work in the 21st largest city in the U.S. I've never been threatened or shot at by a law abiding citizen and those who have taken shots at me or those I arrested for carrying/using a weapon illegally didn't get it through legal channels. For what it's worth. Oh, I have had armed law-abiding citizens help me catch criminals on at least 4 or 5 occasions that I can recall...but it is Texas after all :)
It's not so much persons owning guns shooting at the police and committing street crimes that worry the anti-gun folks. The concern is mainly about things like what just happened at VT: someone has a bad day, has access to a weapon, and uses the weapon. The more typical case is probably the cheating spouse/angry abusive boyfriend scenario. On top of that, you've got the accidental shootings that occur.
But yeah, the ultimate resolution to the issue really depends on how the numbers actually crunch. It'd have to be something like:
Damage prevented by crimes that would have been committed but for fear by criminals that victim has a firearm (whether the fear is accurate or not) > Damage caused by heat of passion crimes that would not have been committed but for availability of guns + damage caused by accidental usage of guns
I find it difficult to believe that the former outweighs the later, but you're comparing two states of reality that require you to determine but-for causation, so comparisons are difficult.
Edit: In any event, given that gun ownership is akin to a religious belief, I can't see that they will ever be successfully banned in the U.S. The only way to effect a change in gun ownership is to convince gun owners that the above equation is not true. I'm not sure what sort of argument, if any, could convince a gun supporter to surrender their weapon, but I doubt anything short of voluntary compliance will resolve the issue.
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If you have alot of anger, focus it on the perp, not the victims.
I apologize for writing that, Healer. This story obviously upset me as well.
Another point to be made here is maybe they need better guidelines for when to cancel classes, or find better ways of distributing news to the kids. More information in the right hands might have saved lives in this instance.
I thought this is the kind of thing that all that 9/11 funding went towards improving. I realize its not Homeland Security... or is it?
I've been thinking about all of this, and I guess we should be thankful he used a gun. He could have spent 30 minutes on the internet 50 bucks at Wal-Mart and created a bomb that would of taken out hundreds of kids.
Fizz
Darkmeer wrote:
it. I guess I'm a bit desensitized (spelling's gotta be wrong there), but I was one of the kids who was told "you're a threat" on April 21, 1999 (one day after Columbine).Darkmeer,
It took some guts to post that. Respects to you, man. You've made a difference twice now.
...
I was on the threat list, too.
And by the way, you did spell desensitized right.
-Mr. Shiny
So, I'm in good company here. Really, it's a matter of treatment. People want to be treated courteously and with respect. What it comes down to is some people, whether they intend to or not, are mean and talk down to others. Are we all guilty of it some times? Yep. Should we apologize? Yep.
The points that made me a threat:
1. I was picked on.
2. I wore a trenchcoat.
3. They knew who picked on me (the rich little b#st#rds who really didn't have a good family life).My responses:
1. That was the teachers' responsibility if they want to provide a non-violent "sanctuary of learning" then they have to step up. They aren't paid enough to do that, and, as someone already stated, the kids are just awful to them.2. I had worn a trenchcoat for a year and a half before columbine. B/C of the "news" ranting about the trenchcoat mafia, both myself and one of my friends who had had his trench for about the same amount of time were told not to wear them. We did, for the rest of the year, EVERY DAY. I was sick of being intimidated by that point.
3. They sought a scapegoat. They didn't want to admit that maybe, just maybe, they needed to spend more time with their kids. They ended up the most messed up bunch of people, primarily because they thought the world revolved around them. I win, without even firing a shot.
It was funny when I was informed of this, as the guidance counselor at the school had been on good speaking terms with me for some time. She's a nice lady, and deserved more than she ever got from the school. What she said to me, quite plainly, was "Hey, Darkmeer, it was either me or the dean of students to talk to you. Since I know you and know this isn't true, I figured it would be better if I talked to you..." Two weeks later, the dean of students called me into his office, and said basically the same thing. He saw me angry once in 4 years, and I resolved it with shouting at the principal (his first impression of me was me screaming at him yelling something along the lines of "what the fark is wrong with you people?!!" ---Ahhh, memories.
Back to Virginia Tech:
The kid had some issues, primarily someone didn't care in his life. And lots of people decided something was wrong with him, and nothing was done. The only story I'd read before seeing the plays (I'll read those shortly) was that his writing was "dark and disturbing. I've not read anything but Mein Kampf that truly distubed me (very, very scary book). So, my thoughts are simply that something else was up.
On to Dr. Phil... Boy, I don't like him. He blamed Video Games. Thank goodness D&D hasn't been implicated... to my knowledge:
LARRY KING: Why, though - OK, you want to kill someone, you’re crazed, you’re a little nuts, girlfriend drops you, why do you kill innocent people?… Dr. McGraw, are they treatable?DR. PHIL: Well, Larry, every situation is different… The question really is can we spot them. And the problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you that if these kids are playing video games, where they’re on a mass killing spree in a video game, it’s glamorized on the big screen, it’s become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath or someone suffering from mental illness and add in a dose of rage, the suggestibility is too high.
And we’re going to have to start dealing with that. We’re going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murders of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.
IF video games beget violence, I should be much much more violent than I am. I learned to cope with my anger and resentment of the world, not just deny it.
KING: Well said.Dr. Phil, shouldn't parents feel when they send a child to the school, that the child is safe, I mean one plus one equals two?
MCGRAW: Well, really, you certainly have that expectation. And as you know, Larry, I have a son that's a sophomore in college and so I know from a parent's perspective that you expect them to be there having a good time and getting an education.
And I think what we have to turn our attention to now is what these students could and should expect as things move forward at this point. Most young people don't have the ability to recognize what post traumatic stress syndrome really is. But you can expect that a lot of these students are going to start to play the what-if game with themselves. What if it had been me? What if I had turned the corner a few seconds sooner? And they'll begin to have anxiety and some of them at a debilitating level.
So they have to be able to understand that you've got to get help for this. If you're starting to lose sleep, if you're starting to have poor quality sleep, if you're starting to have nightmares, if you're getting irritability and anxiety and an inability to concentrate, recognize that this is a very predictable outcropping of this kind of traumatic exposure in your life and you need to reach out and get professional help for it.
Virginia Tech has a wonderful student services system. They have a wonderful psychology department and of course, these resources are going to be greatly overwhelmed at this point, so everybody is going to have to step up and help.
The only real agreement I have here is that the kids need to get some help. It's one thing to lose friends to health reasons, but this is random and angry. If the shooter really wanted to, he could have done more damage, and there were students there that will always remember that. I know he could have done more, and I'm near 3 major Universities for Illiois (UIUC, ISU, and Wesleyan, let alone the various community colleges in my area within an HOUR DRIVE). There really isn't a lot of security on the campuses, and thus private businesses add their own security systems and teams, people are more aware of their environment, but students are so focused on their educations and the "me" factor that everyone else gets dropped. That's why I NEVER lived on a college campus, I couldn't stand it. It angered me to think about that.
BTW: Nightmares and insomnia and irritablility come with any part of a stressful life, whether post traumatic stress, health worries, or economic/job worries.
KING: Dr. McGraw, does this cause great concern at other campuses?MCGRAW: Well, I hope it does, Larry. Again, we get so much in denial and we just kind of think that it'll never happen to us. It's just always something you read about in the newspaper or hear about on the news. But it does happen and we are all vulnerable. And I think there has to be a warning system. I think there has to be education with the students about what to do in a time of crisis whether it's terrorists or whether it's someone deranged that does something like what happened today.
So I hope it causes grave concern. And I know I certainly will be talking to my son again about his position on the campus right now.
The problem is that there will always be kids who get the same stresses as others who won't mentally be able to cope with it, and end up fighting their own violent tendencies. This is known about the children's mind (overreaching statement, probably), but what about other people. The shooter got a gun, but was on anti-depressants? How? (Illinois gun laws prevent that, don't know about elsewhere).
Does it fall to the schools? Does it fall to the parents? Does it fall to the security team? Does it fall to the police?
My answer is that it falls squarely on the police, security team for the university, AND the shooter's parents.
BTW: the quotes are from CNN.com, linked from GamePolitics.com.
What's worse is that there will be people promoting drugs and ritalin and other crap that really harms a child. These things remove a child's coping mechanism, utterly screwing over when they get older.
On to Gun Control and the Constitution: I don't agree with everyone's opinion, but as I am a patriotic American I defend your right to do something I don't agree with and hope you do the same for me also as a patriotic American.
That said: I hate guns. With a passion, find them utterly disgusting. I won't ever own one. But, I like knives and swords. I collect them (not so much since the kids have come along). People hate knives, people hate guns. Without either none of us are free. I'd much rather defend your right to own a gun (which I won't ever own myself), and have you defend my right to my swords & knives, than be stripped of this right and be even more vulnerable to violent crimes.
My last point:
Some idiot will pull the race/country card. They'll prolly ask some pundit if "x race" is more prone to violence to another. I think that it's stupid, and they should realize that it's wrong before they air such filth. The problem is that it's simply going to happen, regardless of what I say. I just hope it's not on national type news.That's a heck of a reply, and I feel better now. I hope that I've put some valid points out there, and I already know that I've offended several folks.
/d
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I was under the impression that the right to bear arms was more linked to the right to insurrection in the face of tyranny.
**double-snicker**
That certainly sounds better in the High School history book than, 'they were needed to protect settlements from Native Americans who were ticked that we were using every excuse in the book to kick them off their ancestral lands.' It's a false-choice. Both answers are correct.
But I'm not an anti-gun zealot, either. I grew up with rifles in the house, and I have hunted. People should have more liberties, not less. F2K made a point about new laws making otherwise law-abiding people into criminals, and it is a good one. The same can be said for most of our drug legislation. We can't continue to support the cost of locking such a huge portion of our population up in prisons for much longer. We're finding out now, as drug perps who are just getting off their mandatory sentences are finding it impossible to reintegrate into our society, that the ultimate cost of jailing our people for such stupid causes is too high. Like Sebastian says above, it has to be a voluntary surrender of weapons by a consensus of our population if we're ever going to get this monkey off our back. And even then, I wouldn't expect to see an immediate plummet in deaths by firearm in this country, because there are just so damned many weapons in our society already.
The depressing thing is that democracies are supposed to be about compromise (again, from the High Scool history books), but the political paradigm of the day is to view compromise as weakness. Our politicians will eventually overcome their current best-instincts and start trying to make political hay against one another with this tragedy. Republicans will say that armed students and teachers would have smoked this guy straight away - Old West style. Democrats will say gun control would have prevented it. More false-choices.
I say bring back King George.
(sarcasm again - we have)
Laws need to change somewhat. having three forms of I.D a check book with your adress should not entitle you to own a gun. One should have to go under some test and screening before guns are handed out.
Dr Phil can kiss my ass. If he wants to drive to my house in his undeserved limo, then I'll even shave and powder my hairy dwarven tushy for him.
I'm a gamer and I have no desire to ever shoot up some school and all the gamers I know think the same thing. Even if we are deranged sociopaths we still wouldn't spend the energy to get our fat asses off of our couches to kill somebody!
Does Dr Phil even game? Because if he did he would understand how they are not at all "kill simulators". And since he has no experience with video games or the players, I see no reason why I should pay attention to him on this issue!
I hope you realised that was sarcasm in my last post. Reading it over again, I realise it might not be obvious. I don't own a firearm and never will. I agree with every point you make here.
Speaking as an Irishman whose country only shook off "redcoat" oppression in the last century, I can recognise the sentiments. However, since the US military budget dwarfs the combined budgets of the next ten countries on the list, I hardly think anyone is going to invade anytime soon. We used to say "burn everything English but their coal". Times change.
I was under the impression that the right to bear arms was more linked to the right to insurrection in the face of tyranny.Bottom line, the right to bear arms is an amendment- an adjustment, a change to an existing document- the implication being that the original document was imperfect. Amendents continue to me made- so to regard a handful of hot button phrases as untouchable, set down by infallible titans is at best naive, at worst fundementalist zealotry.
The untrammeled proliferation of weaponry in a civil society is toxic to it's well being . It means that the American Dream so espoused talks the talk, but walking the walk is an entirely different matter. End of the day, it's the Law of the Gun that has the final say, and all the Gun has to say is death. That's why more then ten thousand deaths occour year in, year out due to gun violence.
Where have all the heroes of the world gone; nobody stepped up to stop this so lots of lambs were led to slaughter, evil, evil propages evil. Where is the light in the darkness here; it is all hubris; I cannot find it, am only left to pray for the dead, the injured; the hurting and that poor soul who enacted such evil.I thought this same thing. A whole bunch of people were there watching friends, classmates, and fellow humans being butchered and all they did was cower and pray for it not to be them.
*STAND THE F#CK UP! If 3-6 of you had rushed this POS you would have saved many lives! Why is it OK to sit back and do nothing?!? A brave man once stood up and gave his life to help save others and his call was "Let's roll" stated simply and calmly and those 2 words are not the words of a hero, they are the words of a human. A person who won't allow himself to die without a purpose.
I would lay my life down without thinking about it in this type of situation. Why? I have a beautiful wife and kids, a damn-near perfect life, and every thing to lose. It's not because I wanna be hero but because I refuse to be a lamb. Fight, dammit! If you won't fight in these circumstances then what will you for?
I am angered that 50+ people were shot, 30+ fatally and nobody stood against the evil. The decision not to act is a decision to allow evil to win, thereby making it an evil act committed in selfishness.
It is sickening.FH
Nice one Luke- it can be hard to pick up nuance on the Boards.
I take your point that regular Joes are Heroes, Fake Healer- I faced down a thug with a bowie knife who jumped a girl in Dublin- I never thought about it before or since, but know that kind of snap decision you took.
While I applaud your decency in jumping into a random beating, it is a far cry from facing into a mute lunatic armed with automatic weapons. These students were still just kids going to class- what do you want from them? The heroes of Flight 93 were grown men who had time and opprotunity to size up the situation before making their move on the terrorists.
This act of butchery was commited out of the blue and was over before most people knew what was going on. To condemn those who took cover in shock and bewilderment simply isn't on- not everyone has that kind of presence of mind in a sudden crisis, even if they had had martial arts training.
Already there has come to light the heroic sacrifice of one Professor who took a clip while blocking access to his class. That's the kind of heroism we end up seeing in this kind of madness.
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All I can offer is my anecdotal evidence of 18 years of police work in the 21st largest city in the U.S. I've never been threatened or shot at by a law abiding citizen and those who have taken shots at me or those I arrested for carrying/using a weapon illegally didn't get it through legal channels. For what it's worth. Oh, I have had armed law-abiding citizens help me catch criminals on at least 4 or 5 occasions that I can recall...but it is Texas after all :)
It's not so much persons owning guns shooting at the police and committing street crimes that worry the anti-gun folks. The concern is mainly about things like what just happened at VT: someone has a bad day, has access to a weapon, and uses the weapon. The more typical case is probably the cheating spouse/angry abusive boyfriend scenario. On top of that, you've got the accidental shootings that occur.
But yeah, the ultimate resolution to the issue really depends on how the numbers actually crunch. It'd have to be something like:
Damage prevented by crimes that would have been committed but for fear by criminals that victim has a firearm (whether the fear is accurate or not) > Damage caused by heat of passion crimes that would not have been committed but for availability of guns + damage caused by accidental usage of guns
I find it difficult to believe that the former outweighs the later, but you're comparing two states of reality that require you to determine but-for causation, so comparisons are difficult.
Edit: In any event, given that gun ownership is akin to a religious belief, I can't see that they will ever be successfully banned in the U.S. The only way to effect a change in gun ownership is to convince gun owners that the above equation is not true. I'm not sure what sort of argument, if any, could convince a gun supporter to surrender their weapon, but I doubt anything short of voluntary compliance will resolve the issue.
As far as I am aware, more children are killed in the US by accidental shootings in America than criminal performing evil acts. But again, I can't source the stat, but mention it here to take or leave.
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As an NRA member, I'm party to all the secret information that NRA members advocate.
1) Responsible gun ownership
2) Eddie Eagle Child Safety Program (what to do if you see a gun)
3) Teaching women that they can refuse to be a victim
4) Strong mandatory sentencing for gun crimes
5) Obeying the law, honoring the constitutionCrazy stuff, I know. Cocaine is illegal, yet everyone can get it. If you make guns illegal, the only ones it will hurt are those who obey the laws anyway.
While murder rates are higher in the U.S. than Europe, other violent and property crime rates are much higher there, partly because no criminal has to fear any armed homeowner. I won't cite my sources, because I'll be accused of being a right wing hack, but I do believe independent research will bear this out. The fact that Australia's crime rate soared after the 1996 weapons ban is pretty well known and the fact that Texas' violent and property crime rate dropped by 30% after it allowed citizens that qualify and meet the requirments to carry concealed handguns is well known to me as a Texas Master Peace Officer.
I can't speak for other countries, but we certainly don't live in a hell of violent crime over here in the UK. I think there is some evidence that violent crime has increased, but I don't think it has anything to do with gun laws at all, but the availability of alcohol (punch-ups and the like). We also live in a more urban society than in parts of the US, which the problems that go with that. I'm not an expert on these stats, but I have seen the news where it is discussed, and overall crime is down.
Gun control laws will do nothing. We don't need more useless feel-good legislation.
Well, I don't have a gun and don't feel hurt by that lack. Gun ownership in the US is much more about a culture of gun ownership rather than any real need, as such. I remember one of our previous conversations. I think you bought an assault rifle or something similar (forgive me if I get the details wrong - a very powerful firearm, anyway) and I asked you what you needed it for. I don't need it, you said, I just like having one because it is cool. Well, OK, but that isn't need.
The societal problems that cause these types of incidents aren't really fixable either. Best way to handle this is to have a containment plan at public facilities and drill the student populations of all schools in making themselves less vulnerable.
Better security drills and a better way to detect and respond to gunfire would also help. Some cities have installed automated gunfire detection systems that allow dispatchers to send officers very quickly to shots fired incidents, allowing public safety to flood an area and contain the shooters more rapidly.
My Department practices "active shooter" drills annually. We all attend 8 hours of training every year just on containing "active shooters" not to mention our firearms qualifications and use of force training, etc.
I question any of this would work, speaking as a person who works on controls in businesses. Drills - apart from the climate of fear this would engender, no one will pay attention unless it was done over and over - and if the perp is part of the student body or whatever, he will know the drill too, so.... And I doubt police containment would achieve much either. It didn't at the last shootings, and I doubt you colleagues there were totally incompetent. Once these things kick off, people will die in fairly large numbers. Prevention is surely better than containment after the event.
I agree that gun control will not make these things totally impossible. But my view is that it would make it harder. But as I say above, it is for society to weigh the pros and cons and determine a consensus on how it wishes to conduct itself.
Hey Firbolg, ya live in Ireland as I understand it. Would you recommend it for say... a two year stay, because I'm thinking about transfering there. I have some relatives in Dublin but when I see them it's because they came to California and not visa versa.
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Oh, and I think anyone who is condemning the students for running away is probably mistaken (I'm being polite here). I can't know what I would do in such a circumstance, but running away, or freezing, are probably the top two options. Fear is a funny thing, and running away is a good option. Charge a guy with an automatic weapon, when I possibly have other options? After you, you heroes....
Hey Atlas, yes I did- I just moved over two years ago (my wife is American).
With regards trying out Ireland, I'd say go for it- we've been nomads for the past few years and nothing opens up one's mind to the world more then immersion in a different culture. The culture shock is a good deal softer in Ireland and it offers a decent network for flying around Europe on the cheap.
When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, there's a few tips I can give- you can email me at logradydsl at eircom dot net and we'd be happy to help out in any way we can (that way you don't have to broadcast plans over the boards and go off topic).
Oh, and I can instantly hook you up with the National Gaming grapevine :)
Hey Atlas, yes I did- I just moved over two years ago (my wife is American).
With regards trying out Ireland, I'd say go for it- we've been nomads for the past few years and nothing opens up one's mind to the world more then immersion in a different culture. The culture shock is a good deal softer in Ireland and it offers a decent network for flying around Europe on the cheap.
When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, there's a few tips I can give- you can email me at logradydsl at eircom dot net and we'd be happy to help out in any way we can (that way you don't have to broadcast plans over the boards and go off topic).
Oh, and I can instantly hook you up with the National Gaming grapevine :)
Awesome
Hey, just for reference, what time is it right now in Ireland. It's 11:40pm at the time of this post.
but; I dont want to get off topic; this is still a tragedy and very very sad; I just am sensitive to people blaming it on the weapon when it was the person
Not blaming the weapon of choice that this thing happened, but I am blaming the weapon of choice that there were so many casualties.
Combat situations and trained soldiers are a bit different from amok runs...Aubrey mentioned gun vs machete comparison above..there was also this one guy who started with an axe in a subway in Finland, and he managed to kill one person...and one guy in Sweden, I think, who killed three people with crowbar...To put it in D&D terms, you get one surprise round which might end up in death, but after that every other person's action will be "get the f**k outta here" so more casualties would require that you are able to outrun the victims (best bets are little children, elderly or drugged), well-closed environment or possibility to get another surprise round to other unsuspecting victims. Otherwise your attack of opportunity will result only in injuries unless you are really really lucky. With guns it is easy to shoot people who are running away, even from a distance.
Besides Norway and Switzerland, there are also plenty of guns in Finland and from what I have heard, in Canada...but large majority of these are hunting rifles and shotguns which nobody ever carries in public places.
Oh, and had I beena schoolkid in USA during Columbine, I guess I would also have been considered a risk...at some point after it when I and some friends were out, someone pointed out that all of us had long dark coats...
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My wife and I were going back and forth about this incident last night again. We were both freshmen at UF back in 1990 when Danny Rolling went on his murder spree. Apples and Oranges, I know. But both of us remembered the University being very proactive about warning students what was going on.
The big differences there were that it happened the week before classes started, so UF didn't need to take the immediate steps that some may eventually fault VT for not taking. In 1990, all the murders were at off-campus apartments, and the event itself and the fear that it was ongoing lasted weeks. Rolling was picked up on an unrelated charge just after the murders, in a city about 1 hour south of Gainesville, but no one connected him with the murders for a long time.
Hopefully this incident will work out that there was just the one shooter, and that he's taken care of himself. That way the student body at VT will be spared some of fear and panic that loomed over our campus for so long. I grew up in that little town, and to see stories nightly of the guardian angels (biker vigilantes) beating the crap out of students in the street because they refused to answer challenges, or were carrying sticks for self-protection, was the part of the incident that freaked me out the most. Our little town became a police, press and vigilante circus for months. I hope the VT kids are spared that, because it makes it alot harder to put the fear behind you and refocus on why you're there.
I've been thinking about all of this, and I guess we should be thankful he used a gun. He could have spent 30 minutes on the internet 50 bucks at Wal-Mart and created a bomb that would of taken out hundreds of kids.
Fizz
I was thinking about what you said all morning. So right. So frightening, but so right.
Oh, and I think anyone who is condemning the students for running away is probably mistaken (I'm being polite here). I can't know what I would do in such a circumstance, but running away, or freezing, are probably the top two options. Fear is a funny thing, and running away is a good option. Charge a guy with an automatic weapon, when I possibly have other options? After you, you heroes....
I think you unfairly added a bit of bravado onto my statement, Aubrey. I guess I shouldn't have shared my thinking in public forum.
Just because some of us are capable of dishing out violence in heaping Helpings doesn't mean that we were rubbing it in anyone else's face. we were just wondering if others there were like us, and if so, how did they fare? It's a personal consideration, "What would I have done? Would my name be on the CNN crawl right now?"Every time I said hero I offered an italic font and finger quotes, because what does that term really mean, anyway? I wasn't trying to give myself a colonoscopy with my own head. I also said that I might be completely impotent if dropped into that situation.
Obviously hiding and playing dead amidst bodies is a great strategy for survival. What I was saying is that people don't attack in concert, which is perfectly natural, however I believe unarmed soldiers or cops, because of their training, would have taken him down in the same situation. And there are so many people who invest so deeply in this culture of violence, I'm actually surprised there wasn't a "counter psycho" to undo his plans.
One of these days two school shooters are going to walk into the same school from opposite sides, see each other, and blast away until class lets out and no one can figure out who set off the firecrackers and left two puddles of ground chuck on the floor.
Hey Atlas, yes I did- I just moved over two years ago (my wife is American).
With regards trying out Ireland, I'd say go for it- we've been nomads for the past few years and nothing opens up one's mind to the world more then immersion in a different culture. The culture shock is a good deal softer in Ireland and it offers a decent network for flying around Europe on the cheap.
When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, there's a few tips I can give- you can email me at logradydsl at eircom dot net and we'd be happy to help out in any way we can (that way you don't have to broadcast plans over the boards and go off topic).
Oh, and I can instantly hook you up with the National Gaming grapevine :)Awesome
Hey, just for reference, what time is it right now in Ireland. It's 11:40pm at the time of this post.
Ooops when I said "moved over", I meant to the US.
The time difference is about eight hours (we're in Jersey and Ireland is five hours ahead of us).
Clarification for Aubrey the wellformed:
It has always been my fondest wish that humans would evolve beyond aggression. It'll be the end of us, and I never mean to glamorize it.
I think the reason some of us considered the things we considered after this tragedy was because we mentally drill in daydreams all day long. I'm not paranoid by nature, but I do have knives in every room of the house. Why? I guess I'm waiting for the break-in I've always been waiting for. It probably only occurs to me once or twice a year, but there you have it. There were times when I thought it was happening and I rushed out of my bedroom naked, bladed, and wanton. I saw a neighbor's dogs chasing something through the woods at 2 in the morning. Wearing only shorts and sneakers I ran after them, grabbing a tree branch along the way. What was I thinking? That whatever they were chasing might hurt them. What did I get for my troubles? A nasty tick bite and a trip to the doctor to check for Lymes (tick was too big... the lil ones are the baddies that infect you). Result: I was called crazy man.
What happens if a guy breaks in while I'm on the john? Not to worry, I've got four contingencies. Clearly I'm a silly fellow, but seeing many people get killed by a violent criminal feeds into the same sense of fear that fuels these drills and propelled me into developing myself to handle other people's violence. If my home never gets broken into, well then I wasted far too much time on planning and way too much money on Gil Hibben daggers. ;)
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I think you unfairly added a bit of bravado onto my statement, Aubrey. I guess I shouldn't have shared my thinking in public forum.
Just because some of us are capable of dishing out violence in heaping Helpings doesn't mean that we were rubbing it in anyone else's face. we were just wondering if others there were like us, and if so, how did they fare? It's a personal consideration, "What would I have done? Would my name be on the CNN crawl right now?"Every time I said hero I offered an italic font and finger quotes, because what does that term really mean, anyway? I wasn't trying to give myself a colonoscopy with my own head. I also said that I might be completely impotent if dropped into that situation.
Obviously hiding and playing dead amidst bodies is a great strategy for survival. What I was saying is that people don't attack in concert, which is perfectly natural, however I believe unarmed soldiers or cops, because of their training, would have taken him down in the same situation. And there are so many people who invest so deeply in this culture of violence, I'm actually surprised there wasn't a "counter psycho" to undo his plans.
One of these days two school shooters are going to walk into the same school from opposite sides, see each other, and blast away until class lets out and no one can figure out who set off the firecrackers and left two puddles of ground chuck on the floor.
I didn't actually pick up on your comments (is that worse? being ignored?). I was actually thinking more of comments by Fakey and Valegrim along the lines of "Where are the heroes". I thought they were a bit silly - sort of armchair heroics. As ever, the thoughts on this board are provocative and interesting.
Most of what happens in these situations is about instinct, and instinct is about selfish genes. Running away may lead to more people getting killed than if the there is a concerted rush - but you might get away if you run and the others are left to be killed. Not nice, but it is a valid survival strategy. I also think the attack on the cockpit on 9/11 is a slightly false analogy with the recent shootings. There was no escape from the plane, attack was the only survival option. While I don't want to detract from the dignity of those involved, from a selfish genetic point of view there was no other option, which might be why it was taken up with relative enthusiasm by the passengers.
I'm convinced that if you want to be a manager at a Goodwill consignment store, where I used to work while getting through school, you must 1. Have forearms scored with knife fight scars and 2. Have some sort of obsession with firearms. One of my favorite bosses (and I had a lot of great bosses at that job) is a guy named Rob. Fulfilled both criteria to a tee while being shorter and skinner than myself. Two shotguns under his bed at all times, and an ankle holster for his concealed firearm. And lord knows how many other knives, guns and rifles in his apartment.
The first time I heard that he had not one, but two shotguns under his bed at once I had to ask,"Is the Incredible Hulk regularly trying to steal your stereo or something?" There's a point where the rationale of having things around to defend oneself is stretched a bit too far. But, anyways.
So, this one time, after his fiance dumped him, he was in the bathroom taking a shower and he heard someone in his place. He lived alone now, so he thought to himself,"Ah, great. I get to shoot someone." (He's basically been waiting and hoping for someone to pull something on him since the day he got the thing.) But the problem was, he didn't have a gun in the bathroom. What do you do in that situation? Bluff your intruder? Tell them, "Hey, I have better stuff over here, follow me!" and hope they're dumb enough to let you get to your weapon? Go for complete absurdity and assume that they're from an escort service you just called? Come out naked and say,"Hey. You're not Gunther. Is he sick or something? And I do believe I requested the fireman outfit." And just hope to stall them with that suspended,"What the..." kind of moment? Do you hope to creep around them or improvise something from a bathroom pipe?
Well, anyways, it was just his ex. He was really bummed he didn't get to stand someone down with his arsenal.
People from outside the U.S. must have a very interesting impression of what we're like over here.
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I'm convinced that if you want to be a manager at a Goodwill consignment store, where I used to work while getting through school, you must 1. Have forearms scored with knife fight scars and 2. Have some sort of obsession with firearms. One of my favorite bosses (and I had a lot of great bosses at that job) is a guy named Rob. Fulfilled both criteria to a tee while being shorter and skinner than myself. Two shotguns under his bed at all times, and an ankle holster for his concealed firearm. And lord knows how many other knives, guns and rifles in his apartment.
The first time I heard that he had not one, but two shotguns under his bed at once I had to ask,"Is the Incredible Hulk regularly trying to steal your stereo or something?" There's a point where the rationale of having things around to defend oneself is stretched a bit too far. But, anyways.
So, this one time, after his fiance dumped him, he was in the bathroom taking a shower and he heard someone in his place. He lived alone now, so he thought to himself,"Ah, great. I get to shoot someone." (He's basically been waiting and hoping for someone to pull something on him since the day he got the thing.) But the problem was, he didn't have a gun in the bathroom. What do you do in that situation? Bluff your intruder? Tell them, "Hey, I have better stuff over here, follow me!" and hope they're dumb enough to let you get to your weapon? Go for complete absurdity and assume that they're from an escort service you just called? Come out naked and say,"Hey. You're not Gunther. Is he sick or something? And I do believe I requested the fireman outfit." And just hope to stall them with that suspended,"What the..." kind of moment? Do you hope to creep around them or improvise something from a bathroom pipe?
Well, anyways, it was just his ex. He was really bummed he didn't get to stand someone down with his arsenal.
People from outside the U.S. must have a very interesting impression of what we're like over here.
I worked at a Boy Scout camp for a couple of summers, and wierdos like that were par for the course.
For example, the commisioner (a.k.a. head of maintainance) slept with a chainsaw under his bunk "just in case." It's a good thing the guy had never seen 'Evil Dead 2.'
Also, the camp firearms instructor (an ex-marine corps sniper) stocked his trailer with
- 1 AK-47 assault rifle
- 1 M-1 Garand semi-automatic rifle
- 2 Remington pump-action shotguns
(Note: the scouts couldn't use these- I think that the instructor brought his 'big guns' just so he could polish them while he was away from home. He was a bit neurotic about such things.)
I didn't actually pick up on your comments
Please, Aubrey. Please help me get this egg off my face and out of my hair. It's ever so sticky and the smell of sulfur makes me swoon.
I will say that I never mentioned 9/11 as an analogy to the school shootings. I said what I thought about each situation. Clearly, I'd choose to tackle a box cutter over a 9mm any day of the week. I'm very aware that the situations are completely different. As for those passengers who fought back, they waited before doing anything. Why did they wait? These are the questions that haunt me. I know I'm not alone in wondering these things.
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I can say with certainty that if I had been on a flight with with box cutter weilding terrorists, my actions, win or lose, would have been instantaneously and very final. Is it a tough guy thing? Is it because I've been cut by people weilding blades more serious than a box-cutter?
For the boxcutter boys on the plane, I come up with Bad Boys Sean Penn....get a shirt, get a couple of coke cans from the stew, wad them up in the shirt. Now you have a hasty blackjack.
Then, take your seat cushion flotation device, pull the straps out, and you have a hasty buckler.|
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I think they waited because they didn't know it was a suicide plot, and waiting it out is the best way to do it. They also didn't know the extent of armaments. I mean fighting back has risks too; you or somebody ELSE could get hurt when a situation escalates past what it was going to be.
Guns? I don't think there's much anybody can do.
For the boxcutter boys on the plane, I come up with Bad Boys Sean Penn....get a shirt, get a couple of coke cans from the stew, wad them up in the shirt. Now you have a hasty blackjack.
Then, take your seat cushion flotation device, pull the straps out, and you have a hasty buckler.
I loved that soda can/pillow sack super sap scene. Way to kick pre-Kurgan's ass.
I think they waited because they didn't know it was a suicide plot, and waiting it out is the best way to do it. They also didn't know the extent of armaments. I mean fighting back has risks too; you or somebody ELSE could get hurt when a situation escalates past what it was going to be.
I figured but once they cut that stewardess' throat... at that point I'd have hoped for a launch. Fighting back is sometimes illogical and can cause more problems than it solves, but I've always endured a punchback lifestyle. Doesn't always serve me.
The Jade:
The terrorists claimed that they had bombs. That is what kept the passengers in check.
(I tried to make this a reply to your post but it did not show what you wrote. Strange.)
It makes sense. Thanks, guys.
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I loved that soda can/pillow sack super sap scene. Way to kick pre-Kurgan's ass.For the boxcutter boys on the plane, I come up with Bad Boys Sean Penn....get a shirt, get a couple of coke cans from the stew, wad them up in the shirt. Now you have a hasty blackjack.
Then, take your seat cushion flotation device, pull the straps out, and you have a hasty buckler.
(lol) then Kurgey th' Viking gets a ....free boom box. (From jailbird Jokey Smurf)
Laws need to change somewhat. having three forms of I.D a check book with your adress should not entitle you to own a gun. One should have to go under some test and screening before guns are handed out.
There's a background check whenever you buy a firearm in the U.S. You identify yourself with a government issued ID to the firearms dealer. He calls a national hotline number run by the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (what a country!). The hotline operator checks your identity and determines if you have felony convictions, family violence convictions or a history of mental illness. If you have any of those three, you are denied at the point of sale. Assuming you're not buying your hardware from the gangbanger at 21st and Piedmont, of course.
Of course, since our lovely friend at VT hadn't yet been convicted of a felony and the mental illness treatment system in this country is hopelessly broken, that didn't prevent him from purchasing a handgun. I just read that he had been judged mentally incompetent by a district judge in December 2005. I don't know when he bought the guns, but if it was after that judgement, that's a serious breakdown in the law.
But...no...even the U.S. doesn't just "hand out guns."
I do feel some serious legislation coming down the line. Politicians can't just let this opportunity to grandstand go by, especially with an election next year.
I wish I was smart enough to figure out a solution to this problem, but I'm not. All I know is that bureaucrats and politicians are never the answer.
Hmmm....where did most of these masacres occur? Wow, in places guns are not allowed. Wonder why that is.....
And yes there was some heroism. A 76 year old professor threw himself at the shooter...this gave time for his students to get out the windows. The professor didn't make it. God bless him.
As far as I am aware, more children are killed in the US by accidental shootings in America than criminal performing evil acts.
I don't know the truth either, but I do know that the statistic you cite was generated by "Handgun Control Inc." which admitted that they include anyone under 18 who was killed with a gun in their "accidental child death statistic" which turned out to be mostly teenager gangmembers who got shot by other gang members, thus artificially inflating the "accidental child death" stat. Like I said before, quoting stats is pretty worthless, even though I did it myself ;)
There are laws in every state that say gun owners must store their guns in such a way that children can't get to them. That law was actually endorsed and sponsored by the American gun lobby, which supports responsible gun ownership.
My guns are locked in a 600 pound gun vault with armored locks and recessed hinges. The one gun we keep available for protection has a gunlock on it that only my wife and I know how to open (it's a DC15 Disable Device roll).
The weapons I own for work (and my Police Department makes its officers buy their own firearms) are kept in a locker inside a police station.
That's the reason I bought that assault rifle you talked about earlier, Aubrey...yes, they're fun to shoot, but I qualify with it and carry it at work and get to deduct the $900 price tag from my taxes.
Yes, accidental child firearm deaths are horrible and unforgivable and parents who didn't store their firearms safely should face the music both legally and in the afterlife.
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OK. New rant.
Maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but why does msnbc have to plaster this jackass's glory pictures all over its front page? I know they have some kind of *exclusive* here, since the guy sent them his multi-media manifesto, but have we lost all sense of decency at this point? Can you imagine having known or (god forbid) be the parent of one of these kids, and log onto that site? Oh look, that must be just about the last thing my spouse||child||friend must have seen before his head was blown off. The lack of compassion displayed by our news organizations sometimes just astounds me! As Joe Walsh put it, "...is the head dead yet?"
I'm sure young Cho would be proud to see that the national news outlets were so willing to be his mouthpiece.
Okay, I didn't read everyone's posts because this has gotten long really fast. Plus I would like to voice my opinion on a couple things just because my wife here's about this at work all day so she doesn't want to talk about it when we are home.
MSN.com went into a little detail about the guy's background in South Korea, saying that his parents were poor and such. The way I read the article, it sounded like the media was trying find ways to blame his condition on his childhood. He moved to the U.S. when he was 8 years old. That was 15 years ago. In my opinion he has been completely Americanized in that time. Unless he was brainwashed by some terrorist group when he was a toddler and sent over here to cause destruction (wait, Jack Bauer dealt with that a few days ago, sorry bad joke), then it falls on our society to take the blame.
I've read on other posts from people that are against gun control a frequent argument: we don't outlaw other types of weapons like knives. (Maybe we should, but that is another argument for another time). My main point against their argument is that guns only have one purpose: to harm. There is no other ligitimate purpose for a gun (such as using it as a paper weight). If someone can come up with another reason for a gun's creation and use, I will gladly listen and take it into consideration. Knives, even though you can easily harm someone with one, have other purposes (i.e. sharpening sticks for marshmellows, cutting string, etc.).
Those are the two things that have really been bothering me.
Also, in my local news (I live in Vancouver, WA) someone wrote on a mirror in the girl's restroom at WSU-V Tuesday that "if you thought what happened at VT was bad, wait until I come back at 8:00" or something to that effect. I'm not going to write what I feel like doing to the person, mostly because that would just make things worse.
There is no other ligitimate purpose for a gun (such as using it as a paper weight). If someone can come up with another reason for a gun's creation and use, I will gladly listen and take it into consideration.
Hunting--food didn't always get delivered by big semi-trucks and our forefathers had to feed their families and hunting was a big part of that
Protection--from wild animals, from human predators, having a gun allows me to leave town with less worry, because my wife knows how to safely handle and competently wield a firearm, which she has available to protect her and my two children. Police response time is an iffy thing even assuming she could get to a phone.
Recreation--guns are fun to shoot for some people. Maybe that's not legitimate to you, but we can agree to disagree.
Investment--guns hold their value well, collecting high end guns is a good way to park your money somewhere, especially if you never shoot them.
Protecting your neighbors--See someone assaulting your neighbor? Call 911 and after the 9th ring they still haven't picked up yet? Well, you don't have to hope that your frying pan will be enough to stop the assault if you have a gun.
Protecting your country--hard to believe in a modern world, but once upon a time, armed citizens were a huge part of what kept countries free from other countries oppression. Not so legitimate any more, I suppose, but if civilization regresses, the U.S. is still something to contend with with 80 million firearms in private ownership.
Owning a firearm is a personal decision. I have no quarrel with those who don't own them or who dislike them intensely. I'm not trying to start an argument with anyone in this thread, far from it. Just know that the irresponsible and criminal gun owners get all the press. The vast majority of gun owners are not criminals and are not irresponsible.
Is my opinion worth more than yours because I'm a police officer and I've been shot at and have had friends and co-workers of mine killed by gunfire? No!! Your opinion is just as valid as mine, okay?
Guns are used all the time to prevent crime...but because the crime didn't occur or the police wasn't called or the press only covers things that are sensational..that kind of gun use is under the radar and anytime this is publicized by the gun lobby, the anti-gunners jump all over it because there are few "stats" to support it. However, I've seen it all the time--the most memorable incident was where a 12 year old girl held a burglar at bay with her dad's revolver (which he had taught her how to use safely!!!) until we got there. That burglar had specifically targeted young women home alone for months and had broken into their homes to steal their underwear and this little girl caught him for us. There were many other incidents, but that one is the most memorable for me.
If only we could somehow get food without guns. Ah well, what can you do.
If only we could somehow get food without guns. Ah well, what can you do.
It's called farming... lol
Ultradan