Where are my posts?!?!?!
Perhaps my dream absorbed them.
Actually sometimes posts dissappear and then reappear some time later on. It's a voodoo beyond my comprehension.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I agree. Not only that, but very few DM's enforce familiar rules at the table, so the scenario is likely to go like this:
Fighter "I shoot your familiar with an arrow"
Wizard "No, he's a toad and he's in my backpack"
Fighter "...but...I should be able to shoot him"
Wizard "Why? No one else ever is? I've been at ground zero of over 35 fireballs, fallen 100', and been dropped into a pit of acid and my familiar has never ever been hurt in the process."
Edit: If the plan is to target his familiar, I'd recommend exploring other craptacular rules backwaters. Maybe you could begin the first round of combat by declaring "What's your strength? Are you carrying your spellbook? Ha! You have medium encumbrance!!!" Then try loading him up with weighted vests until he collapses and is unable to move.
I've been reading your post and this is a very dangerous little test you put yourself up to. first you have to judge his normal tactics. Is he a weirdo that sticks to certian spells, or is he a variety player.
I personally am not a power gamer. more or a straight roleplayer and wont pick spells if it doesnt match the character. if he is the same way you probably dont have much to worry about and you will win the match in apx 3 - 10 rounds if that.
now make sure you remind him that his character shouldnt be combat orientated, such as making a half orc wizard with improved unarmed stike or some stupid sh*t anyway good luck.
by the way when is this battle royale going down.
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looking to start a game in vegas
email me stevenruzena@yahoo
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I personally am not a power gamer. more or a straight roleplayer and wont pick spells if it doesnt match the character. if he is the same way you probably dont have much to worry about and you will win the match in apx 3 - 10 rounds if that.
now make sure you remind him that his character shouldnt be combat orientated, such as making a half orc wizard with improved unarmed stike or some stupid sh*t anyway good luck.
While I applaud the fact that you consider yourself a roleplayer instead of a power gamer, I would argue that such is the opinion of most of the people who post on these boards.
The entire PURPOSE of this contest is to build your character towards the end goal of defeating the other player. Roleplaying, character morals, and all that will not matter for this contest. It's a battle of the build and I think the fighter is going to be hard-pressed to pull this one off without an incredible amount of luck.
@J- Damn, I wish I had hot evoker chixors in my dreams... sigh Instead I get cloudkill milkshaked into oblivion by a cackling gnome. Grr....
@ SM- I agree, but like FS said, this is a mano a mano build death match. the continuing problem fighters run into is that once 8th and 9th level spells really come into play, its game over UNLESS they are focused on whacking mages. But that focus doesn't lend itself well to "regular" games. Mind you, after building this guy, i'd run him in any campaign anywhere, but i think thats because being good with a bow is useful just about anywhere, much like sword prowess or spell slinging.
Ok, so I can see him (gem of seeing), hide from him (boots of speed, shot on the run), hit him (theoretically, 30+ to hit, 700' range, seeking and ghost touch on bow). Now I just gotta get the drop in the first round and hit him as hard as possible. Besides arrows of slaying and poison, what else could I do to kill him in one round?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I've got to say, that even if you win, I don't think this is going to prove to your friend anything about the fighter/wizard power balance. The logical response to a win is "you didn't win because you were playing a fighter, you won because you had certain magical gear" or, even more likely, "you won because you won initiative."
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Besides arrows of slaying and poison, what else could I do to kill him in one round?
Umm... Crit?
Seriously though, arrows of slaying and Con-damaging poisons should really do the trick if you can win initiative.
Be careful on your estimation of his hit points, though. A smart player will build a wizard with plenty of Con for a fight like this. If he manages to get an 18 Constitution, you can practically guarantee that he'll have over 100 hp. Even with only a 16 Con, he'll have 90 on average and possibly more if he rolls a bit lucky on his hit dice. His high Con will also help his Concentration skill out to throw off your plans of spell disruption.
You may have said this already, but what kind of stat builds are you using? I'm assuming point-buy since you want the fight to be statistically even. My base wizard build (assuming a 32 point buy) would be: STR 8, DEX 13, CON 16, INT 17, WIS 8, CHA 8. Then, using my free points from levels 4, 8, 12, and 16, it would become STR 8, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 20, WIS 8, CHA 8. I feel that gnome would be a strong choice for race here, but dwarf might be a little better, even. Either way, I end up with 18 Con. Gloves of Dex will help my touch attacks, Headband of Intellect will boost my spell save DCs.
Now, looking at this in retrospect, you might want to go for heavy STRENGTH draining poisons. The wizard is unlikely to have a good Strength score and, if you can drop that stat to 0, he will be helpless. Something to consider.
Oooh... also notice: You will quite possibly be facing a DWARF with a HIGH CON SCORE. Base 6 Fort save, +4 Con, +2 versus poison. That's a total +12 Fort save against poison, not counting other countermeasures he might have. Yikes.
Mebbe, but I still won, which he considers impossible under any scenario. Never tell me the odds....
@ FS- Well yeah, Crit was assumed :) We're using the Elite Array from the MM (as mentioned in OP), so not quite as strong as you posetd, but yeah, its a hotmess.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Now, looking at this in retrospect, you might want to go for heavy STRENGTH draining poisons. The wizard is unlikely to have a good Strength score and, if you can drop that stat to 0, he will be helpless. Something to consider.
Lead vests FTW!
I'd make a gnome if I were the wizard player. Con bump plus size bonus to AC is a perfect fit for the situation. The only other possibility would be a human. None of the other races have a relevant ability for the battle.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I know this is somewhat outside the main thrust of your question but it seems to me that this test is weighted unfairly against the fighter. From what I've seen (granted my experience is limited) wizards tend to start weak & build in strength whereas fighters tend to start strong & become less powerful (relatively) as they progress. For example it seems to me a 1-2 level fighter would take down a 1-2 level wizard pretty much 95% (or more) of the time and vice versa; a 19-20 level wizard will take down a 19-20 level fighter 95% of the time (or more).
So, to prove the respective worth of each I would want to run a 2 out of 3 fight at low, mid & high level. I hypothesize you'll hit a 50-50 win ratio around 8-12.
I feel this would more fairly represent the strengths & weaknesses of both classes.
You are absolutely right. Spellcasters start off weak and get insane at higher levels. Fighters start out strong and taper off in power as they grow because the primary purpose of the fighter is to protect the spellcasters. As the spellcaster becomes more capable of protecting themselves, the fighter's role is diminished.
That's right, fighters. You are meat shields. Act like it. :P
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'd make a gnome if I were the wizard player. Con bump plus size bonus to AC is a perfect fit for the situation. The only other possibility would be a human. None of the other races have a relevant ability for the battle.
The +1 AC isn't going to matter at these levels, so I'd probably stick with dwarf for the poison and magic resistances. +2 to all saves versus magic and poisons is nice as a wizard.
Yeah, it IS weighted against the fighter, hence the challenge of it :) It was the absolute dismissal of the fighter as a viable class that got my fur up. Don't get me wrong, I do think the fighter is due for a long needed overhaul (IUS for free, monk AC bonuses (useable in armor), and maybe bonuses to will saves from martial training) but I just have to try, you know? My arguement is that any PvP fight at this level will come down to initiative and environment, because either could kill either fairly quickly. The wizzy has a 1-2 round advantage in this, which is why I need to go first :)
Can I take 3 rounds of full attack if I cast time stop from a ring of 3 wishes?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Can I take 3 rounds of full attack if I cast time stop from a ring of 3 wishes?
Nope. During time stop you cannot affect people outside of it's effect (a.k.a. anyone other than yourself). You can set up spell effects to "go off" at the end of the spell's duration and you can move. That's really about it.
So I can't volley 24 arrows at him and have them all hit when the spell ends? Damn, that'd be fun....
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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So I can't volley 24 arrows at him and have them all hit when the spell ends? Damn, that'd be fun....
Tragically, no. The wizard, however, could cast 3 delayed blast fireballs and set them around you in a circle to all detonate the instant the time stop ended.
Not fair at all, is it? ;)
See, I would personally allow that arrow volley from time stop to work, but that would most likely be a house rule, and I get the feeling you are running pure RAW.
By the way, fighters should get IUS? Indiana University Southeast? Why should fighters get my campus? (in case you can't figure it out, I don't know what that abbreviation means in D&D).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The +1 AC isn't going to matter at these levels, so I'd probably stick with dwarf for the poison and magic resistances. +2 to all saves versus magic and poisons is nice as a wizard.
Your right - I completely forgot about that ability. I was focused on the con bump and the advantages of being small.
IUS= Improved Unarmed Strike. A minor but annoying aspect of DnD is that it neglects teh most basic tenets of combat, that being that its hard to sunder, disarm, or nerf the fist:) Even in basic training they taught us unamared combat, and I'd dare say we only get WAR 1 out of it, if that :)
FS - I only said that earlier because i was trying to explain the fact that i wasnt in the business of picking things that were just for buff purposes and that my advice wouldnt be helpful in this situation.
i use to be a powergamer but it kinda killed my old group when the dm kept reffering to me as a evil bastard. so i really havent played a power gamer in like 5 - 6 years now. Now i mostly dm.
but in one of the recent comments he stated that if he does this or that im either toast or hosed so to me that would make wizard the superior class.
its a interesting bout though
also keep in mind he might want to toy with you and summon something to keep you preoccupied while he "toys with you" and that could either be a pain in the ass or be a opertunity to exploit
totally improved unarmed strike should definatly be apart of the fighter's bonus much like the wizards scribe scroll it is the soul of the fighter how can someone "fight" if they can throw blows.
but then again this is coming from a former marine
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looking to start a game in vegas
email me stevenruzena@yahoo
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looking to start a game in vegas
Istari, there are "Gamer Connection" forums on the main messageboard page for this. :) Good luck!
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Just an aside here, but this little battle, even if fought thrice, doesn't prove fighters(or wizards depending on the outcome) suck. Perhaps it should be at three different level match ups. Say, one at 7th, 14th, and 20th. That would be an interesting to see and would give a better indicator of how the classes match up. No save, automatic kill spells are great at 18th level for the wizard, but what happens when the fighter is able to hang around for some rounds at 7th?
This thread makes for some great reading regardless. Cheers!
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Just an aside here, but this little battle, even if fought thrice, doesn't prove fighters(or wizards depending on the outcome) suck.
Oh, no, and that's not the point. We already know that wizards are the superior class here. The purpose of this battle is just to see if the fighter CAN win. Plus, who doesn't love some uninhibited carnage for old times sake?
Oh... I'm sorry. Did I get some of my class elitism on the thread there? Let me wipe that off....
Just an aside here, but this little battle, even if fought thrice, doesn't prove fighters(or wizards depending on the outcome) suck.Oh, no, and that's not the point. We already know that wizards are the superior class here. The purpose of this battle is just to see if the fighter CAN win. Plus, who doesn't love some uninhibited carnage for old times sake?
Oh... I'm sorry. Did I get some of my class elitism on the thread there? Let me wipe that off....
~laughter~ You elitist mage lover you!
From a 2nd ed. perspective this is no problem. The mage is dead meat.
Take a Palladin with his holy sword. He gets a 10' radius anti-magic shell against hostile magic while it's drawn. The only thing that can hurt him is area effect stuff, to which he gets a good save. None of that can harm him enough to keep him from turning that little spook pusher into Alpo.
Fighter versus wizard isn't usually a fair fight because most of the time you fight monsters, not each other. Against monsters solo, the wizard (at least at higher levels) can have much higher offensive capability, but at the expense of defensive ability; he relies on disabling opponents before they can get to him, which the fighter helps him to do.
Too bad you can't use third-party OGL stuff, or you could use this item of mine:
Taren's Boots
“Taren the Never-Dying”, a human adventurer, earned his nickname by managing to die no less than seven times during his adventuring career. When he eventually decided that life was too dangerous and that eternity in Valhalla was much preferable, his comrades were baffled to cast true resurrection only to retrieve nothing but his empty boots. The next man who stepped into Taren's boots suddenly found himself skilled in the only thing Taren did well - fleeing!
Whoever wears Taren’s Boots finds that his footwear extends his stride as if he is in a hurry to get out of danger, increasing his base speed by 20ft. However, if the wearer knowingly attempts to move into a creature's threatened area, the boots take huff and lose all power in the next round. The original owner of the boots met death so often that it's said that Death himself feels nostalgia at seeing them, so they grant the wearer a +5 resistance bonus to saves versus death effects. Taren's Boots are also nicknamed coward's boots.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Price 24,000gp; Weight 1 lb.
I don't remember seeing the goals of the fight. Do you counted as winning if the wizard teleports away and doesn't come back?
I think that if you win on initiative you can easily kill the wizard with a barrage of arrows coated with poison on the first round (I certainly am attracted to the idea of an oath bow with +1 bane* shocking burst frost burst arrows coated with dragon bile).
If you lose initiative I would wait until he has cast several of his high level spells and attempt to stall until the durations on the more powerful ones have run out, using armor with etherealness and beads of force (targeted on self). I would hope I could avoid the more powerful spells.
I would also suggest a ring of evasion to waste any spells with reflex saves he casts on you.
*The arrows bane targets would be spread out between the various Player's Handbook races.
Oooo, ring of evasion is good. Also, is there anything in the DMG that gives immunity to enchantments or mind-effecting abilities? Combined with the fighter's good fortitude save and a nice cloak of resistance, you'd be hard to touch.
thanks this whole thread gave me a good idea
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The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the only chance the fighter has is to win initiative. Even if the fighter wins initiative, it is going to be tough. The Wizard is never really out of it unless the fighter can shut down his spellcasting somehow. I'm sort of tapped on ideas beyond what I have already contributed to the thread, but the idea of the ring of evasion works well. A ring of mind shielding might give him immunity to enchantment, I don't know off hand. If it did, the ring of evasion, ring of mindshielding, and cloak of resistance would make him fairly safe against any spell that allows a saving throw and several that don't. It still doesn't address things like being pinned down by a wall of force, or facing a Gated Solar, but that problem exists anyway.
I will really be looking forward to hearing the round by round replay of this battle.
Ender, I think you’d be better off with a melee build. The fighter’s strengths lie in close range physical combat. The wizard’s strengths lie in range and versatility. Fighting a sniper’s duel in an essentially open field against a wizard is playing his game on his terms. With fly, he’ll be able to take the high ground and negate whatever cover you can find.
Also, depending on how the officiating DM handles it, winning initiative may not be as important as you think. From what you’ve described, the two of you will be placed randomly on the field. Unless you wind up in line of sight from the get go, you’ll be relating you moves to the DM in secret until you do. As a DM, it’d be easier for me to have you roll for initiative once you’re placed and then take turns on movement.
Here are my suggestions, which may or may not be worth the paper they’re printed on:
- As I said earlier, I think you’re better off with a melee build. Focus on a spiked chain as your main weapon. It gives reach and allows adjacent attacks, and can be used for trip attacks. Get an animated (defending?) tower shield, since it can provide cover. If your budgetary rules will allow it, get a luck blade instead of a ring of three wishes. It’ll give you a re-roll and a +1 luck bonus to all saves in addition to three wishes. It only has to be on your person to use, so you can still wield the spiked chain and frees up a ring slot. You should have both a ring of protection or freedom of movement and a ring of counterspell: disjunction.
- All of this does depend on getting the wizard to come to you. Use an instant fortress as soon as you find a space for it. Enter, but leave the door open, and either ready an action to close it if he tries to target a spell (like fireball) or spell effect (like cloudkill) through it or have a cube of force on setting one for the cloudkill. He’ll either have to burn resources to destroy the fortress or walk into the trap. Once inside, he’ll be less likely to pop off any AOE spells. Set spiked chain to puree and enjoy.
- Barring that, wish him into your own cube of force (solid mode) and then wish yourself into it as well. Again, set spiked chain to puree and enjoy. This would also work as a second match tactic, if you are going two falls out of three.
When does this "Fighter vs Wizard" event take place?
Can we buy tickets?
You should record it and post it on YouTube !!
Next comes the maximized empowered fireball. If you fail the save, you take 90 and check for massive damage. If you pass, you still take 45.
Okay, I waited for days, but no one pointed this one out: a maximized, empowered fireball deals (10d6)/2 + 60, not 90; the maximization doesn't apply to the empowerment. Then again, whether you're dealing 77.5 (mean) or 90 is a fairly minor difference in the overall scheme of things...
But why not take weapon focus (energy missiles) and some maximized orbs of electricity for 90 (no save) plus possible entanglement (not that he's likely to fail the Fort save, but there's always the chance of a "1")? You could maybe sudden empower one, also, for (15d6)/2 + 90 (= mean 116, no save). His touch AC is unikely to be stellar, after all.
Oh, wait... PH, DMG only. Sorry. As you were, Fatespinner... fireball away.
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Try this for size.
Boots of Teleportation - to get to him
Bead of force to capture him (and you) okay you both get damaged 5d6, you should be able to just shrug it off;-)
Belt of Giant strength, Rings of Evasion and spell turning.
Armour of spell res.
Wpns, short sword x2.
Neither of you can leave for a while, any area spell hits him also, as he's casting you get an AOO. your ring and armour either absorb of reflect the spells.
High dex, impr init, and the other starting feat/trait (can't remember what it's called) gives you an extra +2 on init.
Make one of the swords the Luck blade to give you an extra chance with the initiative.
Then just pound him.As per previous post, rip it apart if I've missed/mistaken anything :-)
What stops the wizard from just dimension dooring out of the bead? Then he spends the time buffing etc. while you wait for the bead to end. Or Time Stopping inside the bead and again just teleporting out? You have to be able to pin him down, which I don't think a bead of force will do. More importantly, if you use your round to teleport to him, he gets a free round to act before you can use the bead of force, so what stops him from casting his Time Stop then and opening a world of hurt on you with Gate and the like. If you make a melee build and can't guarantee the Wizard can't get away from you, you have insured victory for the Wizard. If he can just stay out of your melee reach, he has you beat. If the bead of force negates spell casting inside, it might work if you can suprise him with it. The bigger problem is that once you teleport to him, you give him a round to do what he wants. That likely spells your doom, especially if he casts a spell that keeps you from using the bead of force.
The fact that D&D's best and brightest have been pow-wowing for days on a strategy suggests that a 18th level fighter beating an 18th wizard is as likely as rolling a strike in a one ball game (can be done but the conditions have to be just so). I'd be curious to see an inverse of the topic's thrust.
I like Gumball's idea about taping the fight and showing it on YouTube. That would be exceedingly cool. Especially if there was an agreement ahead of time that the winner got to shove a pie into the face of the loser. That'll fill the seats.
well if your going to go the high dex route then you can take weapon finesse and you will use your dex not your str to you advantage you will not need str for the essential game so it doesnt have to be a high stat therefore you can redirect you high stats as follows
Dex
Con
Wis
three main stats and they will also boost up your saving throws
but if you wanted a true test 8 - 12th level no magic items and that would be a doosy of a knock down drag out brawl
so whats next barbarian vs monk?
monk Vs Sorcerer
Ranger Vs Druid
only time will tell
Ha, there will be no LARPing, you tube ing, or pie schmooshing :) Thanks for all of the excellent suggestions. The duel will probably take place next saturday, at a coffee house here in tampa called sacred grounds, I'll post times and such when we make a decision. If you can;t make it, there iwll also be a round by round fight diary posted. I'm sure it will be all of about 15 lines for the three fights, but I'll go down swinging at least :) The other player and I are good friends, and have played and DMed for each other a good bit, so it should be fun. His current group and mine are hanging out, so it'll prolly be at least 12 people full in dorkin out:) I'm sticking with the ranged build for now, but I may make up a second build to throw at him in bonus rounds or something. Keep the ideas coming!!!
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What stops the wizard from just dimension dooring out of the bead? Then he spends the time buffing etc. while you wait for the bead to end. Or Time Stopping inside the bead and again just teleporting out? You have to be able to pin him down, which I don't think a bead of force will do. More importantly, if you use your round to teleport to him, he gets a free round to act before you can use the bead of force, so what stops him from casting his Time Stop then and opening a world of hurt on you with Gate and the like. If you make a melee build and can't guarantee the Wizard can't get away from you, you have insured victory for the Wizard. If he can just stay out of your melee reach, he has you beat. If the bead of force negates spell casting inside, it might work if you can suprise him with it. The bigger problem is that once you teleport to him, you give him a round to do what he wants. That likely spells your doom, especially if he casts a spell that keeps you from using the bead of force.Try this for size.
Boots of Teleportation - to get to him
Bead of force to capture him (and you) okay you both get damaged 5d6, you should be able to just shrug it off;-)
Belt of Giant strength, Rings of Evasion and spell turning.
Armour of spell res.
Wpns, short sword x2.
Neither of you can leave for a while, any area spell hits him also, as he's casting you get an AOO. your ring and armour either absorb of reflect the spells.
High dex, impr init, and the other starting feat/trait (can't remember what it's called) gives you an extra +2 on init.
Make one of the swords the Luck blade to give you an extra chance with the initiative.
Then just pound him.As per previous post, rip it apart if I've missed/mistaken anything :-)
True, but.
Nothing can enter or leave the bead.
When he starts casting you get an AOO,
Not too sure on the rules of gate, whether it will count on the enter/leave rule of the bead. perhaps someone can enlighten me on...
All the Wizard has to do to avoid the AOO is cast on the defensive. The DC is 15 plus spell level. So to cast his 9th level spells defensively he needs a 24 on his concentration check. At 18th level his concentration check will be a minimum of 21 and more likely at least a 23. That means he at worst, fails his concentration check to cast defensively on only a 1 or 2. If he casts a spell 7th level or lower, he can't fail the check. So the bead strategy can't work. The only way to disrupt the wizards spellcasting is to use readied actions, because you will never get an AOO because of the ease of making the concentration check when casting defensively. This makes the bead of force strategy suicide.
To make this battle fair, you need to have it in an arena that isn't just a big colosseum. Perhaps a hall of columns, where the wizard won't be able to just blast the fighter into non-existence in 1 round.
I totally agree with Xaaon of Xen'Drik
isnt this test going to turn in a who is the better player and there should be some even ground whereas you both have the same stats or somethin same stats before racial mods of course like you each roll three or a third party roll
Dude, read the OP :)
Ok, so lets war game some more now that the filters are off. If you were the wizard, what spell would you have contingencied on you? 6th level or less, personal/self targetted only.
And your top 2 spells if allowwed a time stop. I'm thinking Iron Body, Polymorh into a dragon/balor, or something similar.
Hmmm, Contingency is an exception to the 'no pre-buffing' rule then? (which I assumed was in effect?)
If it is, get one yourself with an Anti-Magic Field, that should at least somewhat even things out (as pointed out, the PHB has rules for 3d party spell-casting)
As for spells in a Time Stop, I'd probably go along the lines of Displacement and/or Stoneskin. Stoneskin is negated by Adamantine (bring adamant arrows! that'll render at least one spell he's probably going to use pointless.)
Displacement and Invisibility effects can be disabled by True Seeing; so try to fetch something that grants it as well.
Personally I'd find summoning a bit lame; it's fighter vs. wizard, not summoned Balor vs. fighter. But, if he goes that way, pick up Candles of Invocation and do the same to keep him busy.