Do you think that level of vitriol is strictly necessary?
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That being said, the price of Green Welcome struck me as incredibly high as well. Was this a product of the whole D&D drug rules or something else?
I figured the second adventure would explain the Yak-meld. I don't see why the failed save couldn't work though; the fact that it takes 20 minutes to perform the meld is fairly irrelevant if the person is bound/gagged/etc.
Rezdave, that was an awesome rant! Not being sarcastic. I usually "turn off" half way through a longwinded rant and sometimes don't even finish it, but your's had me all the way to the end.
OK. So to address the parts that dealt with Vile Addiction, the pricing issue of the Green Welcome is my fault. In the manuscript I wrote up the drug sidebar and priced it as it is. I agree that 50 gp is way too high and I actually meant to change it to something more realistic, but forgot to do it. I believe we also meant to include something to the effect that free samples are initially given to prospective users (I could swear we wrote something to that effect) to hook them in, but I guess it was overlooked or possibly edited out. Not sure.
I can tell you that there was a bit of editorial trimming done that if included might have satisfied the investigation part of your rant. There were two encounters that built up to the delve into the spriggan cave and confrontation with the "dealers".
With regards to Panphar Thrissek, he is an unwilling victim of yak folk body melding and has been used this way for many years. In fact, long before the recent issue of the Green Welcome. The drug peddling is only a recent thing Arghakot Annapuma has made use of the man's body for. The Yak Folk have much farther reaching and long term goals than selling drugs, which you will learn in the later installments.
As far as the rest of your rant, I'm sorry that the other parts didn't appeal to you. I hope that you find the next 2 installments more satisfying and usable.
Steve, let me just say you must have quite a few ranks in diplomacy.
There was quite a bit less face-stomping in that response than I am comfortable with, Mr. Greer. Let me try.
Rez, don't you think it's sort of hypocritical to talk about how the Dungeon staffers have no lives in the same rant where you get your panties in a twist about niggling details in an adventure? Maybe if you had some point of reference on how real people in the real world acted, you'd see how much you overreacted.
There was quite a bit less face-stomping in that response than I am comfortable with, Mr. Greer. Let me try.
Rez, don't you think it's sort of hypocritical to talk about how the Dungeon staffers have no lives in the same rant where you get your panties in a twist about niggling details in an adventure? Maybe if you had some point of reference on how real people in the real world acted, you'd see how much you overreacted.
Treehouse, my friend, just let it go. I think Rez's points were legitimate criticisms, though the part you're picking up on did go into the personal jabs territory. But, hey, always better to let that kind of thing go on ignored, in my opinion.
Sorry, I just found the original post too irritating to not at least comment on. I'm easily roused, what can I say? That's what you get when you mix high Intelligence with low Wisdom and Charisma.
Or maybe that's the recipe for autism, I'm not sure.
(I kid! I kid!)
Umm...change the price if it bothers you that much?
The economics of D&D, in comic overview, by Rich Burlew.
That is so friggin' funny. LOL!
Diplomacy... heh. Yeah, sometimes it's there, other times not so much ;)
As far as the acid in Rezdave's post, yeah, I felt it, but I think we all have those moments when something really bothers us and we need to clear the air, so to speak. As far as Rez's criticisms (most of them) for Vile Addiction they were valid and welcomed (of course, there's 4 other writers that may or may not have a different reaction than mine). I hope I adressed them in a constructive way. If I were to go back and set a price for Green Welcome, I would say that it is arbitrary and solely dependant on how much the seller thought he could get from someone after dangling the apple with a freebie. There are a considerable amount of visitors in Exag to account for. For them, I think the 20-50 gp price is reasonable. Again, it depends on what the seller thinks he can get.
As far as the rest of Rez's post, I think I'd be more offended if I was the Dungeon editors, but they tend to have even thicker skin than me and that's saying a lot.
I think the main problem is that while the adventure path is set in a cool location (an ancient city constructed by mysterious entities) the city is too poor and isolated from the rest of the Flanaess to be a place where the drug would have any chance of becoming a problem (because very few people could afford it). I think the solution is to make Exag a staging point for the drugs distribution. In this way the people are no longer victims of the drug but instead silently complicit (even if they are not directly involved) in it being distributed to other parts of the Flanaess where it is much more affordable. This change does not need to alter the adventure that much, but broadens the scope of the adventure and makes the PCs job more difficult (because the people of Exag don't want the wealth coming into their city to stop). In essence this turns Exag into a place like Columbia, which has a reputation for being a major drug distributor despite the best efforts of the government and various drug agencies.
Imagine the cool mental picture of an Exagite trying to come up with 20gp worth of rat pelts to hussle up a hit of Greenie......
...or bartering certain services......
"Come here, Mr. Spriggan.....let me help you enlarge...."
On a real note---Dungeon adventures are way too short to be all encompassing and any one of them can be nitpicked to death. We were nitpicking all the way to the end and finally said...let's just end it here and send it off otherwise we're going to edit ourselves into oblivion.
Having said that--DMs have all the control. Take the adventure and remodel it into your own vision...nothing says you have to run it as written. The Paizo Gestapo isn't going to come stomping through your front door like a big geeky Spanish inquisition if you change things to make it fit your world better.
....and hey...economists are welcome to play D&D as well. They gotta have fun somehow....and if the were_cabbages become the butt of an economic joke, especially in a make believe world populated by make belief people running make belief economic systems....so be it. We can take it.
F2K (not nearly as diplomatic as Steve Greer)
I think the main problem is that while the adventure path is set in a cool location (an ancient city constructed by mysterious entities) the city is too poor and isolated from the rest of the Flanaess to be a place where the drug would have any chance of becoming a problem (because very few people could afford it). I think the solution is to make Exag a staging point for the drugs distribution. In this way the people are no longer victims of the drug but instead silently complicit (even if they are not directly involved) in it being distributed to other parts of the Flanaess where it is much more affordable. This change does not need to alter the adventure that much, but broadens the scope of the adventure and makes the PCs job more difficult (because the people of Exag don't want the wealth coming into their city to stop). In essence this turns Exag into a place like Columbia, which has a reputation for being a major drug distributor despite the best efforts of the government and various drug agencies.
Well said....
He he. ;)
And don't forget badgering you endlessly about Huge coral snakes...
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Well we all get Cranky once in a while... I know I've shot off a rant or two over something small!
I too like the concept of the adventure but think the editing cut too much of the investigating. The Exag's seem so xenophobic... I find it ironic that the way you originally wrote them they were even moreso!!! I thought the plant monster theme in the issue was refreshing too. We haven't seen a lot of plants in a while.
Well we all get Cranky once in a while... I know I've shot off a rant or two over something small!
I too like the concept of the adventure but think the editing cut too much of the investigating. The Exag's seem so xenophobic... I find it ironic that the way you originally wrote them they were even moreso!!! I thought the plant monster theme in the issue was refreshing too. We haven't seen a lot of plants in a while.
Primemover, funny you mention that. In the original draft we had a street gang encounter - a mix of hostile young locals and their drug-addicted buddies using the Mob template from DMG II. In the playtest I ran my players thought they could handle a bunch of young punks with nothing but bricks, broken bottles, and sticks. The PCs got their butts handed to them big time. The damage was non-lethal, but when they woke up at the side of the road they had been looted of pretty much everything they owned and covered in grafitti specific to the gang.
I have to say that I stumbled over the price for the drug as well, so I can understand the OPs point of view. But this is easily changed, so I think that "falling apart" is probably too harsh a judgment. It is a relative minor point, after all.
To the writers: do you care to share the parts left out from the published adventure, as long as this does not conflict with guidelines for publishing (which I can´t judge)? The youngster mob seems an interesting idea, and can put a few moral questions before the PCs.
Stefan
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While the OP was a little imtemperate, he raises a few good points, as Steve mentioned. I would also point out that, while I appreciate the need for editing, is it possible that the editing process damaged the flow of the adventure. After all, a scenario about drug-peddling might be expected to be a bit heavier on the seedy role-playing and less so on the thumping, as much as players enjoy that sort of thing.
Also, the OP wasn't THAT rude - Sebastian can be similarly trenchant, as can I and others on occasion. The guy has some pretty good observations - "face-stomping" is not an appropriate response at all.
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To the writers: do you care to share the parts left out from the published adventure, as long as this does not conflict with guidelines for publishing (which I can´t judge)? The youngster mob seems an interesting idea, and can put a few moral questions before the PCs.Stefan
We discussed this a couple of times and are not quite sure if we are allowed to do it. The map of the Spriggan Caves, for one thing, should be scaled 1 square = 5 feet, not 10! This little dungeon is small, narrow and cramped and this was cut out in some places...
Also some detective work encounters did not appear. Anyway, don't get me wrong - I love what the editors did with it, and can life quite comfortable with it!A lot of small things have been cut out as well, but with an AP running in the same issue, the editors need to get space for that (and the APs are a great, great way to fill space in Dungeon!).
I also have some issues with other adventures, but nothing I could change for my own campaign or my feel of story and drama. D&D is one of the most individual games and I have run one adventure with three different DMs and always had a different, and cool playing experience.
D&D is, like so many other things a game where taste matters so much. I have no problems with critiquem in fact, it helps me a lot to get things right, but doing it in a civil manner would not hurt. I don't care if someone says:"Hey, Dryder, you adventure sucks!" here on these boards, but I care for the place here and how civil, intelligent and wise some people help others out here (no, I am not talking about me being wise, I get more help here on these boards than I give)!
One last thing: there are a lot of monsters I don't like in D&D but I wouldn't bother to tell this other people here, because you can discuss rules (and economics in a fantasy setting, if you like) but not taste! I just change those monsters if they happen to appear in an adventure which I otherwise find pretty good.
I am out of here and appologize for any spelling mistakes here, or for being to harsh (if that had been the case!).
Tom
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My only kvetch or whatever kindof covers or mitigates any complaint I'd have with this sort of adventure due to the nature of the complaint.
I can see what rezdave is saying in some ways, but a lot of times it seems that the adventures we end up with are chopped down to the nth degree, so I can't really judge what the author(s) intended or would've intended if they had the pagecount to do what they wanted to do.
There really isn't a lot of room to have a well-scripted detective work scenario; you have to have page count to do that sort of thing for one, and I think it would end up being overkill, since that kind of information has to be malleable enough to fit individual dungeonmasters' stories or tastes.
I personally could take the bare bones of this scenario and riff on it, making up a slew of bizarre npc's to lead the party on an interesting cavort through Exag's underworld.
I also liked the guy who "railroads" the pc's; it's a nice take on the whole "agent/principle" setup to not have the principle be some wealthy guy they meet in a bar who needs a job done. I can riff off of that too.
I think we get into the whole adventure type/advantages/disadvantages debate with this one.
Also, the OP wasn't THAT rude - Sebastian can be similarly trenchant, as can I and others on occasion. The guy has some pretty good observations - "face-stomping" is not an appropriate response at all.
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with raising criticisms about a module (or any number of other things). But the method that you use to raise criticism determines how others will react to it.
If I went to a restaurant and ordered a slice of apple pie, and didn't like it when it arrived, I could react in one of two ways:
1) I could ask the waiter for a different slice of pie
or
2) I could call the waiter a worthless whoreson and throw the pie in his face
Which of these two reactions is more likely to get me tossed out of the restaurant? No, I stand by my initial reaction to the OP's offensively worded rant.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also, the OP wasn't THAT rude - Sebastian can be similarly trenchant, as can I and others on occasion. The guy has some pretty good observations - "face-stomping" is not an appropriate response at all.
That's a g&%!%%n lie! I'm polite and friendly to a fault.
Actually, funny story: I used to be much nicer. I would try and post politely and be considerate. Then one day, I went on a rant like this, loading a legitimate complaint with an exagerated attack style with the expectation that people would find the attack funny and not be offended. I got a bunch of responses back from people telling me how rotten I was and ignoring my point. I tried explaining my post, and got more grief. And so, on that day, because of that thread, I said f#~$ it. If I'm going to get hell for being an a&~*+~$, I might as well ride that horse all the way into the sunset.
And thus, my current posting style was born.
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Primemover, funny you mention that. In the original draft we had a street gang encounter - a mix of hostile young locals and their drug-addicted buddies using the Mob template from DMG II. In the playtest I ran my players thought they could handle a bunch of young punks with nothing but bricks, broken bottles, and sticks. The PCs got their butts handed to them big time. The damage was non-lethal, but when they woke up at the side of the road they had been looted of pretty much everything they owned and covered in grafitti specific to the gang.
Mobs are not to be trifled with Steve... I've thrown 2 of them at my group since the DMG II and SCAP used the mechanic and in both cases they kicked the living hell out of my groups. If it weren't for the Mage's Red dragon Effigy coming into play one group would've been toast (all 7 of them).
I was thinking of using a Mob of Meazels recently against my 5th level party as a "you pooched the screw" scenario and found that the DC 25 Fort save vs their skin disease would proably contribute to a TPK in later encoutners for the session (doing 1d2 Dex/Con per day). They only had 9 charges left in their Wand of Restoration!!!
I think the mob rules were taken out to save space, ditch a stat block and sidebar that reprinted a synopsis of the mob rules from DMG II, so I understand why the mob aspect was just briefly mentioned. I bet Paizo figured they could edit that out and DMs who had DMG II knew what rule they could apply if they wanted to.
Of course, I'd never be so arrogant as to assume anything about the editorial thought processes :)
Creative Director
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The mobs were removed for space constraints. That issue of Dungeon really got hammered by the fact that we only have about 50,000 words of space for adventures & backdrops, and with the Savage Tide adventure taking up about 25,000 words (pretty much unavoidable for a high-level adventure that has to raise the party up by 2 character levels), that left us with only 25,000 words to do two adventures and a backdrop.
The alternate was to not print the Spawn of Sehan adventure arc until after the Savage Tide Adventure Path ended. Which was a long time to wait between campaign arcs.
All of which should also make clear why we were so desperate (and remain so desperate) for good SHORT adventures.
Some of my players hate the idea of mobs and think that they're a stupid concept, so I'm not too worried about the mobs exclusion.
Funny how threads evolve. We went from talking about Exag's drug problem to the skewed economics in D&D to mobs and how they have to be excluded because James needs more short adventures.
By the way, thanks for the compliment Farewell2Kings. I say very few things well. ;)
One thing James. Does the stress and workload of the STAP have anything to do with the slow turnover of manuscripts and queries at DUNGEON? Methinks that may be one of the bad points of the adventure paths (from us writers standpoints anyhow).
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He he. ;)
And don't forget badgering you endlessly about Huge coral snakes...Didn't I request some more face-stomping on this thread? Anyone...
I can throw out some names of targets to get things started if it'll help (grins hopefully).
Is this a regular face stomping or a job for the Narn Bat Squad???
WHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAM!
By the way, thanks for the compliment Farewell2Kings. I say very few things well. ;)
It was a great example of how a few lines of thought, written down, show how any adventure or backdrop can be customized for one's own setting. One of my pet annoyances is people who complain that the adventures they read in Dungeon don't "fit" their world. Well, how in the world is anyone going to write an adventure that truly "fits" a specific world unless it's that world's DM? Each campaign is so unique...that's what makes D&D great!!! I wouldn't want to play in back to back cookie cutter worlds and I doubt many others would either.
He he. ;)
And don't forget badgering you endlessly about Huge coral snakes...Didn't I request some more face-stomping on this thread? Anyone...
I can throw out some names of targets to get things started if it'll help (grins hopefully).
LOL. Be nice, Vaughan.
Actually, funny story: I used to be much nicer. I would try and post politely and be considerate. Then one day, I went on a rant like this, loading a legitimate complaint with an exagerated attack style with the expectation that people would find the attack funny and not be offended. I got a bunch of responses back from people telling me how rotten I was and ignoring my point. I tried explaining my post, and got more grief. And so, on that day, because of that thread, I said f@&# it. If I'm going to get hell for being an a*%#~*&, I might as well ride that horse all the way into the sunset.
And thus, my current posting style was born.
Ah that dang dark "Shut In" map. ;) I remember the tread title fondly....
GGG
That's the one! I'm touched that you remember.Ah that dang dark "Shut In" map. ;) I remember the tread title fondly....
GGG
I was the guy in the mob who blind-sided you with the sawed-off Luoisville slugger. Kyle-Hater. ;)
-GGG
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That's the one! I'm touched that you remember.Ah that dang dark "Shut In" map. ;) I remember the tread title fondly....
GGG
I was the guy in the mob who blind-sided you with the sawed-off Luoisville slugger. Kyle-Hater. ;)
-GGG
Oh yeah...I still have trouble seeing out of my left eye. Thanks.
Did we just witness a moment of cyberbonding? Is that even a word?
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Also, the OP wasn't THAT rude - Sebastian can be similarly trenchant, as can I and others on occasion. The guy has some pretty good observations - "face-stomping" is not an appropriate response at all.That's a g#%*$#n lie! I'm polite and friendly to a fault.
Actually, funny story: I used to be much nicer. I would try and post politely and be considerate. Then one day, I went on a rant like this, loading a legitimate complaint with an exagerated attack style with the expectation that people would find the attack funny and not be offended. I got a bunch of responses back from people telling me how rotten I was and ignoring my point. I tried explaining my post, and got more grief. And so, on that day, because of that thread, I said f!#~ it. If I'm going to get hell for being an a%&#~*@, I might as well ride that horse all the way into the sunset.
And thus, my current posting style was born.
And thus the legend of Sebastian came into being. (By the way, my alias of Dohrlok on the Grimmbold Manor thread is in tribute to you, in looks if not temperament. I needed a bald dwarf and immediately thought of you.)
As a more general point, I think the poster who suggested the face-stomping was rather missing the point - he selected a fairly miniscule aspect of the original post, and didn't really address anything other than the hostile tone (unlike Steve's measured reply). Bur replying in kind with a similarly hostile tone merely compounds the problem - you can't say a person is rude and then suggest that they need their face stomping on. Personally, I think that is rude. Ruder actually - the OP suggested that the editors lacked life experience, but not that they needed to be offered violence. I know it is only hot air, I know no one is really being offered violence, and that this is a storm in a teacup. But once the "face-stomping" stuff comes out then you could end up with a individuals feeling they cannot post what they feel. Rezdave's comments were legitimate, even if his mode of expression was cack-handed.
And, as Seb point out above, it is easy to give the wrong impression while writing. Was Rezdave actually being ironic, humorous? Or was he frothing with bile? Hard to tell, actually. So getting riled up with a self-righteous desire to stomp faces is a a bit of a waste of energy.
The mobs were removed for space constraints. That issue of Dungeon really got hammered by the fact that we only have about 50,000 words of space for adventures & backdrops, and with the Savage Tide adventure taking up about 25,000 words (pretty much unavoidable for a high-level adventure that has to raise the party up by 2 character levels), that left us with only 25,000 words to do two adventures and a backdrop.
The alternate was to not print the Spawn of Sehan adventure arc until after the Savage Tide Adventure Path ended. Which was a long time to wait between campaign arcs.
All of which should also make clear why we were so desperate (and remain so desperate) for good SHORT adventures.
It's clear as day that the solution is to increase the page count in Dungeon!
FWIW I actually enjoyed the "Power Sword Quest" editorial in this issue of Dungeon. It gave me ideas to use for my own son (who is fast approaching 6 years old now).
As a more general point, I think the poster who suggested the face-stomping was rather missing the point - he selected a fairly miniscule aspect of the original post, and didn't really address anything other than the hostile tone (unlike Steve's measured reply). Bur replying in kind with a similarly hostile tone merely compounds the problem - you can't say a person is rude and then suggest that they need their face stomping on. Personally, I think that is rude. Ruder actually - the OP suggested that the editors lacked life experience, but not that they needed to be offered violence. I know it is only hot air, I know no one is really being offered violence, and that this is a storm in a teacup. But once the "face-stomping" stuff comes out then you could end up with a individuals feeling they cannot post what they...
Yeah, you're probably right. The face-stomping comment (while not meant literally) was out of line. It's just that I'm getting off of a customer service job, so I feel for the Dungeon staffers in these sorts of scenarios. It sucks when a patron is verbally abusing you and you can't say anything back because, well, they're a paying customer.
I still think the OP's method of relaying criticism (legitimate or not) was immature and offensive, but my reaction was no better, so I apologize for that.
After reading through the adventure thoroughly (I only just got the magazine; a mail thing) I can actually agree with some of the OP's points. The dungeon crawl element just doesn't fit for this adventure and I think the more investigative elements that may have been cut could have helped to make this a more well rounded adventure.
I like the premise a lot and I like the feeling of the setting. But the adventure itself and the backdrop are a bit skeletal to me. The backdrop in this case may have actually been a detriment to the adventure, due to the page count issue. Getting rid of the backdrop and just folding the necessary NPCs and map into the adventure (like the Styes adventures, for example) may have been a more economical solution.
That being said, I do look forward to the next installment.
We've been discussing this, and the Were_Cabbages are going to see if we can post the trimmed fat somwhere that you readers can check it out and piece it back into the adventure if you want. Just need to see if James and company are cool with us posting the material on a Wiki board.