***SPOILERS BELOW***
So my players began the Lightless Depths yesterday afternoon. Everything was going smooth until they encountered the Elder Black Pudding in the burning pools chamber.
The pudding is brutal, so if anyone is coming up to this part, consider this your warning. This encounter has the potential to seriously affect your group's wealth and capabilities for the rest of the module.
The Elder Black Pudding, if it gets the drop on your players (which it most likely will because they have to run past it while holding their breath in the burning pools chamber), is probably going to destroy a fair amount of your PC's equipment. This can happen in two ways: 1) it grapples a PC with its +35 grapple modifier, holds on to the PC for a full round and then deals 21 points of acid damage to their equipment unless they make DC 21 reflex saves. 2) one of your fighters / melee combatants may try to attack it, causing them to make a DC 29 reflex save to avoid the weapon being destroyed outright.
In my game, the pudding grappled the monk and held him for a few rounds, resulting in alot of DC 21 reflex saves which, even though the monk could add the magic item bonus to the saves (2 + 1/2 caster level of item), caused many of his magic items to be destroyed. Further, all his mundane items dissolved, clothes, etc. The barbarian, trying to help the monk, struck the pudding with his newly purchased +1 flaming wounding greataxe, failed the DC 29 reflex save (including the magic item bonus) and lost his axe in the same round.
Now please do not take this post as a complaint, because I actually enjoyed this encouter (the poison air + the pudding made for a really memorable encounter). However, I think DM's should consider this encounter before they run it because once the PCs are in that room, it is a major hassle to return to Farshore to procure new weapons, armor and items should they be destroyed by the pudding (and Farshore has a low gp limit) and without fully prepared PCs, the rest of the module is going to be that much more difficult.
It is my suggestion that some thought be given towards what may happen if your PCs lose alot of their equipment here. Perhaps have them find some along the way to Golismorga, maybe the aboleth in the flooded temple can point the way to some lost magic items to sweeten the deal in requesting them to destroy Tlaloc's Tear, etc.
I also fully realize that, based on previous posts from the editor and contributors, that STAP is designed to limit wealth and the ability to procure new wealth. Moreover, this encounter may have been designed specifically as a wealth control encounter. However, I think DMs running this module can benefit from some forethought on what to do about their naked and defenseless PCs should the pudding ruin their day.
Just some thoughts. This module is a blast.
Yeah, if no one can cast resist elements, you're in big trouble. The pudding is nasty enough to begin with (especially if the PCs don't know about the splitting and attack it with slashing weapons!), and the acid destruction of equipment is just icing on the cake. That encounter ended up being third in total evil nastiness for my group (after the bile thingy and the neh-thalggu, the latter of which, unfortunately, killed the cleric first).
In my game, the pudding grappled the monk and held him for a few rounds, resulting in alot of DC 21 reflex saves which, even though the monk could add the magic item bonus to the saves (2 + 1/2 caster level of item), caused many of his magic items to be destroyed.
The bad news is that, to the best of my knowledge, this isn't how saving throws for magic items work. You don't add the item's save bonus to the player's when an attended item needs to make a save - you use one or the other, whichever is highest.
IIRC you only make saves for the items if the character fails their save with a natural 1 (unless the item is targeted). Now I haven't DM'd a campaign for a couple of years so my rules knowledge may be a bit rusty.
It sounds like a potentially nasty encounter none the less. Anyone but a monk or rogue could be in trouble.
Of course, by the time you're 11th level, your party ought to have, at minimum, a resist elements (or similar) spell and a freedom of action spell. Lacking either one is like camping without a sleeping bag or a tent.
IIRC you only make saves for the items if the character fails their save with a natural 1 (unless the item is targeted). Now I haven't DM'd a campaign for a couple of years so my rules knowledge may be a bit rusty.
That's correct as a general case (i.e. if making a saving throw versus a fireball), however the Black Pudding is specifically described as affecting the character's armour and clothing. Other items are not mentioned, but there seems little reasonable way they could be excluded from the effect.
I should be getting to this part of the path soon, and I'm concerned about these issues myself. The party may up wind walking, in which case this encounter could be completely avoided, but if they don't they could really get stomped. I could see the lead PC walking into the room, psuedopod grabs at him, and then he gets grappled and starts rolling saves.
I need some rules clarification here. Once the pudding grapples him he pretty much needs to make saves for all his gear unless it is made of stone (correct)? Does he use his own Reflex save bonus for this?
I'm not sure if I'm that mean of a dm. Many of my players have been waiting for months to do some shopping, and have only just gained access to the magic they need to get them back to civilization. They will finally have sold off loads of loot and stalked up on new gear, to obliterateit by a pudding when they just got it seems really nasty, and not very fun.
Does anyone else who has run this encounter have any advice?
Yes, anything on the grappled/struck target gets affected and needs to save. Although one might consider layering saves ( say armour needs to be destroyed before the amulet underneath it needs save, rings after covering gloves... )
That's precisely why that pudding is so freaking deadly to encounter - probable loss of a character ( if it happens to be a less than solid arcane caster.... 50+ HP isn't going to last all that long, especially, since the grapple is likely going to be a AoO, and if initiative is then lost.... one puddle of dissolved caster coming up ! ).
With the added problem of the poisonous athmosphere... .
Bit of personal experience - if the pudding happens to digest the arcane caster first, and you don't have some backup elemental firepower (druid or a cleric with some elemental magic loaded ), you are.... buggered sideways ?
Because even bludgeoning weapons (effective) will need to save on every strike... not to mention, the pudding's own attacks.
We lost two thirds of a party to a black pudding that the (hare-brained ?) GM had decided to enehance by advancement and a fiendish template... after the first split.... well the survivors were those that ran first. 'nuff said.
|
well, here's how it worked for my group:
they descend into the gas, make a couple of saves, wizard casts Favorable Wind, generating clean air in the cone ahead of him.
someone manages to detect the ooze....maybe touchsight? or some similar power.
shoot it with many arrows, splits into about 6 or 7 different oozes
blast it with warmage spells, fire from pyrokineticist, other ranged attacks
end result...monk got grappled, promptly got freed with a fireball (i believe), lost clothing but nothing else.
everyone else was fine.
long story short...Energy Protection, detection abilities, and anti-poison capability are key.
-the hamster
I think the black pudding only eats the characters weapons and armour except on a natural 1 on the reflex save. The armour if your PC got hit or grappled and the weapon is your PC struck the pudding.
Allow your PCs a Spot check to realize the pudding is there. It's "pooled up against the wall" near where they need to exit, so the Spot check should be successful for at least one PC. If they don't immediately retreat, make sure to call for Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks and tell whoever succeeds about what the pudding can do. If they retreat to think it through, don't have it pursue them. If they try keeping it at range, remember it should have to Squeeze to follow them back into the tunnel, dropping it to half-speed.
Options the PCs could use here include the aforementioned Acid Resistance plus Freedom of Movement, but they could also just dimension-door or teleport past the room - the pudding should be reluctant to leave this area so if you make it clear it isn't pursuing them out of the room, they may think of just bypassing it.
I think the black pudding only eats the characters weapons and armour except on a natural 1 on the reflex save. The armour if your PC got hit or grappled and the weapon is your PC struck the pudding.
belief is nice, but the MM-I states that "the pudding's acidic touch deals 21 points of acid damage per round to wooden and metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for one full round to deal this damage"
Now, anyone killed (and getting absorbed by the ooze) or even immersed because of being grappled in the ooze "is in full contact" with the ooze, hmmm ?
There is not even a reflex save allowed according to the text in the MM.
As for clothing and armour (and weaponry employed ) - would you in all honesty go and differentiate between gauntlets (articles of clothing) or a hat (another article of clothing ) or bracers (hmm, jewellery or armour or clothing ?) on one hand and a ring or bracelet or a headband on the other hand ?
Of course, this is D&D 3.5, where even the unconscious and fully paralyzed have reflex saves.... if one cares to suppress common sense and let arbitary rules replace reality, that is
My party walked through this encounter.
They were not surprised by the Ooze and since in order for the Ooze to grapple it must first hit with a slam, my party went full defensive with combat expertise and blocked the Oozes way (AC 32-34). The sorcerer then cast 3 empowered scorching rays and 2 regualar ones to finish it off. The party should know how to fight them or at least how not to when they encountered a small similar ooze in bullywug gambit.
The Ooze never hit and never had a chance....I wasn't really impressed and was actually a little disappointed.
well, there being no black pudding in BWG.... makes that advice sound a bit odd
The black pudding in HtbM can be easily avoided since it is effectively in an area that can a) be circumvented and b) there is enough open space to run and kill it from a distance. My group did.
As for the ooze in LD, I found that encounter rather uninspired, neither very conductive to the athmosphere of the whole thing, nor especially interesting to run since the ooze is not really in a position to do much initially, and its movement across the chamber would be noticed pretty easily, even through a poisonous haze.
Simply replaced it with something more interesting
Oozes and other gear-destroying monsters are pretty much the only things my party truly fears. (Well, actually, there was a delightfully bleak session where they all caught mummy rot in "Here There Be Monsters" and couldn't cure it, but that's kind of what they get for having 7 PCs and no cleric.) In general, my players deal with black puddings by running away screaming and throwing rocks at it until it dies. Not even kidding.
Glad to hear people are enjoying the module!
Oozes and other gear-destroying monsters are pretty much the only things my party truly fears. (Well, actually, there was a delightfully bleak session where they all caught mummy rot in "Here There Be Monsters" and couldn't cure it, but that's kind of what they get for having 7 PCs and no cleric.) In general, my players deal with black puddings by running away screaming and throwing rocks at it until it dies. Not even kidding.
Glad to hear people are enjoying the module!
Immensely. I have another half-dozen players on stand-by - come late November or early December, I'll have a second group playing through the STAP from start to finish. ^_^
Simply replaced it with something more interesting
What did you replace it with?
My group did encounter the first black pudding in HbtM. The party monk/ sorcerer lost a couple items and eventually fell back to remove his magic footgear so he could kick it to death! The rest of the party was ineffective against it (we have no archer types and our wizard only had magic missiles) so the combat lasted awhile.
The party came to a decision after the combat- next time they see a black pudding they'll run away. It will be interesting to see what they do, they'll encounter it next session.
@sben
An ancestral statue of the Olmani ( strong resemblance to a golem ), guarding the way to the lightless depths and offering spiritual comforts around which shadowy ancestor spirits (shadows, allips, a spectre and some wraiths ) had gathered seeking final release into the afterlife by the hands of servants of the Olmani gods and spirits.
Since I have a Olmani spirit shaman in the group, this represented a nice opportunity for him to "go into full immersion" and come up through roleplay with solutions to his ancestral forebearers' grudges and last wishes. he now carries a number of temporary taboos and two effective lesser geas which he will have to discharge over time (he already shrug of one, praying for the ancient's spirit on all four cardinal points of the Isle and finally deliver the spirit to his tribe's shrine (he had to find out which of the seven Olman tribe his descendants had integrated into ). They are into CobI now, and the other wraith's spiritual debt involves prayers in the western shrine of the central isle (incidentally where the skinwalkers have a strong base) .... incidentally, I passed on some cryptic warning about the "entities" on teh central isle through said wraith, so they have a vague idea about the dangers to be faced in the crater lake...
And if teh shaman dies before fulfilling the boons.... well, no returning from the afterlife for him - he will become a restless spirit himself !
They actually fought the spectre (his crimes in life were to heinous to be taken on and seek solace for), which he quickly dissolved with his shamanic abilities.
But, as I said, a pretty group-specific encounter. I mean, how many people play a spirit-shaman ?
Oh, and the troglodytes were pretty much unaware of them, since, being obviously not of Olmanic descent, they were of no help to the restless (human) spirits. Hence, no forewarning from that angle (but they got told about the old "guardian of the way" ).