Those incubi in Malcanthet article were just icky...in pictures and in descriptions. But another mention there about succubi occasionally taking also male form made me wonder how they would look like or indeed if there were succubi which preferred male form...
I don't particularly care for that slightly androgynous mangaesque style Lilith linked, but there has been some nice man-candy in inner pages of Dragon and Dungeon. Werewolves are great to look at (hi, Heathy!) as are swashbucklers, for cover images which wouldn't scare male readers away...Downer looks nice too, now only if Mordenkainen would ditch billowing gowns and go for black leather...
I remember once seeing a report on TV, using computer softeware, they polled men and women and constructed a computer model of each person's thoughts on the most attractive person, which generally turned out to be a borderline androgynous person of either gender (um, that may be redundant).
Admiration for the androgynous form has a lot to do with western culture's fascintiation with youth and youthful beauty. Age, of course, further emphasizes those attributes we associate with gender, making the definitions more sharp and distinct.
Don't think about this one too much, or it will eventually result in a full body shiver.
Despite a lot of comments on your LJ that things "show no sign of improvement," I'm somewhat pleased to report that it looks like the covers from #326 to #350 are trending in the right direction in nearly every one of your graphs. Since those are the issues that best represent the staff in its current roles, I'm glad to see some progress here.
I just mentioned this thread to my art director, and he said "one of the reasons for this is that I never, ever depict females in submissive roles."
Obviously, there's a point of contention on that score, since you listed two submissive females in this period. I'm guessing that you scored #345 and #340 as "submissive," since one woman is kneeling and the other is being chased by a monster. I think both of these are a long way from a miniature woman in a cage, but it only goes to show how subjective the issue is.
Here are two facts that shed some light on the issue.
1) According to our not-too-scientific reader surveys, women account for 4-6% of our readership.
2) Issues featuring scantily clad women on the cover, in general, sell better than issues that do not feature scantily clad women.
It should not be a great surprise to anyone that magazine publishing is a business, and one in which we are forced to compete with companies that have budgets orders of magnitude higher than the average non-Wizards of the Coast game company. In fact, magazine publishers like Conde Nast have budgets orders of magnitude higher than even Wizards of the Coast.
In that environment, we've got to do what we've got to do to sell magazines, and sometimes that involves showing some flesh. Since roughly 95% of our audience are men, that scantily clad flesh often belongs to a female.
We've experimented with a few "beefcake" covers over the years, notably Dragon #294 and Dungeon #126. The sales numbers on these issues were terrible, and while it's impossible to attribute bad sales to a single factor, the cover usually ends up getting most of the blame (and deservedly so)....
um...helooooooooo? earth to mona? wat about us, the YOUNGER generation? im sick of having to hide issues of DRAGON! u wont be too popular with parents and schools at this rate! please, less of the MATURE covers, really!
Yeah, I can see where this whole perception of gender issues comes from. The genre of fantasy art has been biased that way from the start. Even though compared to other magazine covers out there Dragon's is typically tamer in terms of sexuality.
But in terms of gratuitous covers, has their ever been one 'sexy cat-fight' cover? Really, I'd want to see one...
But I guess the aim would be to come up with new and interesting ideas for covers. Less Frazetta and Vallejo, who still are quite influential in fantasy art. It's not like those two artists are a bad thing, but everyone doing art like them is. It's a good thing because we're seeing more variety in fantasy art nowadays.
As all of the covers are drawn and painted you can do a lot more than all of those photographed covers. But I guess Dragon is more likely competing against Heavy Metal and White Dwarf which are the ones more likely to be right beside it on the stands, as opposed to Maxim and FHM.
I can only think of one issue where a female character was wearing an actual chainmail bikini. Issue #282, the April Fool's issue for 2001, has Dixie looking into a full length mirror and seeing her "Gamer Girl" counterpart looking back.
Here's the cover art: http://paizo.com/image/product/magazine_issue/dragon/282/cover_500.jpg
...We track each issue of the magazine, and how it sells in bookstores and on newsstands, and there's plenty of hard evidence that certain covers sell better than others...
So, do you also track the performance of covers painted by individual artists and make decisions about who to hire for future covers based off of those metrics?
Thanks,
John
Creative Director
|
So, do you also track the performance of covers painted by individual artists and make decisions about who to hire for future covers based off of those metrics?
Absolutely. Also the colors used in the skyline, the types of cover lines, the presence or absence of numbers in cover lines, the composition of the cover, the presence of keywords such as "Greyhawk" or "Forgotten Realms" on the cover, and so on and so on.
Contributor
|
um...helooooooooo? earth to mona? wat about us, the YOUNGER generation? im sick of having to hide issues of DRAGON! u wont be too popular with parents and schools at this rate! please, less of the MATURE covers, really!
You're assuming that D&D has ever been popular with parents and schools. I think you will find that is hardly the case. Alas.
So, do you also track the performance of covers painted by individual artists and make decisions about who to hire for future covers based off of those metrics?Absolutely. Also the colors used in the skyline, the types of cover lines, the presence or absence of numbers in cover lines, the composition of the cover, the presence of keywords such as "Greyhawk" or "Forgotten Realms" on the cover, and so on and so on.
I don't suppose you might be able to give us a rough idea into your findings of what makes a popular cover?
Eric,
You mentioned Dragon #294, It had write ups for my 2 favorite GH gods and the Cover was HOT HOT HOT, but even I get that when it comes to a target auidence we just don't have that much pull in the bottomline, (maybe something should be done to get more gays into gaming- as a rule we have more money to spend) . But as a side not, I like the fact that you are trying to put something out there that everyone can enjoy.
As far as this post
"We need some more emo goth guy covers. That'd be hot."
-Amber S, the Totally Serious
His name is Hennent and he's in the PHB
And by far the Best COVER EVER goes to Dugeon 121
Iggwilv is looking So HOT and Evil and well Graz’zt ,well if I was going to sell my soul it would have to be to this demon. So see something for the guys, and something for the girls and the rest of us guys (even if we are only 10% of the populations) which is why I think it's the best cover (and if you can talk Wayen into doing a print of this piece it would make me SO happy).
Don't think about this one too much, or it will eventually result in a full body shiver.
Actually, my first thought went to one of the funniest things I've read in a long time...
You mentioned Dragon #294, It had write ups for my 2 favorite GH gods and the Cover was HOT HOT HOT ... And by far the Best COVER EVER goes to Dugeon 121
I agree to the sentiment about Dragon #294 but don't expect more to come. I personally like the covers very much that show strong women as well - it's a communicative game after all and even the occasional prince needs rescuing.
I gotta say that as a heterosexual female gamer I've never been offended by sexy female cover art. In fact, I was quite disappointed with the queen of succubi cover. First her head looks like it is no longer connected to her body but instead balanced awkwardly on her shoulders post-mordem. Second, she's just icky, nasty; not at all sexy. Even her pose is more "I can't believe I ate the whole thing" loafing in front of the tv rather than come - hither. Who could be seduced by this thing - even in an alternate form? Bad clothes, bad body language, ugly, repulsive. I would've liked to see something much sexier & more seductive even if it did include an eyeball impaled on needle-like fingernails. The inner artwork of the haloed minions was 100 times better, IMO. But I agree the incubus was awful.
Quite frankly, I find Cosmo and similar mags much more offensive in their portrayal of women. Why does a women's magazine always have the cover girl's boobs fighting to break loose of her poorly-fitted clothes? Anyway, fantasy flesh-baring babes are much more expected and logical on an RPG magazine. Never really understood why people get so riled about it. Oh, well.
P.S. I agree with Magdalena - Werewolves are VERY sexy!
|
Those incubi in Malcanthet article were just icky...in pictures and in descriptions. But another mention there about succubi occasionally taking also male form made me wonder how they would look like or indeed if there were succubi which preferred male form...
I don't particularly care for that slightly androgynous mangaesque style Lilith linked, but there has been some nice man-candy in inner pages of Dragon and Dungeon. Werewolves are great to look at (hi, Heathy!) as are swashbucklers, for cover images which wouldn't scare male readers away...Downer looks nice too, now only if Mordenkainen would ditch billowing gowns and go for black leather...
Gorsh!!! ;)
I don't suppose you might be able to give us a rough idea into your findings of what makes a popular cover?So, do you also track the performance of covers painted by individual artists and make decisions about who to hire for future covers based off of those metrics?Absolutely. Also the colors used in the skyline, the types of cover lines, the presence or absence of numbers in cover lines, the composition of the cover, the presence of keywords such as "Greyhawk" or "Forgotten Realms" on the cover, and so on and so on.
Well, based off of past messages in other threads the covers that seem to sell best have at least one of these components:
1.) A Sexy woman
2.) The color red
3.) A blurb that mentions a specific number of items being discussed in that issue (i.e. 4 New Spells)
The following seem to be the kiss of death for a cover:
1.) Scantily clad men
2.) Any non-human race that is short (Dwarves, Fairies, Halflings, etc). Perhaps low sales of these issues is a result of a general antipathy for short people as opposed to a dislike of Dwarves. Just a thought.
3.) Anything with mind-flayers.
It remains to be seen whether these negatives can be overcome by combining successful elements with them. For example, you could paint a picture all in shades of red of several scantily clad dwarven women fleeing from a Mind Flayer into the waiting arms of a mostly nude barbarian man, with a headline that reads: "3 New Exciting Types of MindFlayers!" Hmmm... I wonder.
I think we just found a new president for Paizo Publishing.
Good job!
Why do the girls guys think are "hot" always have DD boobs and blonde hair? Oh sorry, was that a gender-based stereotype? I guess it was.
-Amber S, the Occasionally Snide
'Cause then they resemble my wife? Just kidding. Medesha, no need to be so quick to take offense; I was honestly curious.
To answer your points, a nice smile is the main thing I look for (I HATE those spaced out looks that pass for "sulty"). Body-wise, boob size actually takes a distant back seat to a healthy look (no heroin-junkie skeletons like Paris Hilton). And silicone just looks stupid (no offense to any readers who've got it... but WHY???)When I look at the guys in my wife's mags, I notice 3 recurring features:
1. Absence of body hair (chest, legs, etc.);
2. Grossly overdeveloped pecs (like boobs, almost!) and abs, but no other muscles;
3. Very weak facial features: dainty chins, gigantic lips (usually appearing to be rouged), and, most obviously, really long eyelashes.
I noticed all the drooling on this thread and correctly predicted there would be VERY androgynous guys involved... bingo! Yes, it's a gender-based stereotype, but I've never found an exception.
Why do the girls guys think are "hot" always have DD boobs and blonde hair?
I prefer red heads . . . just saying . . .
|
|
Lilith, you are a hero to your people.Why do the guys that girls think are "hot" always look like girls? Just curious.
I think the main thing is to have a really nice haircut, and dress with a sense of style. That being said, I'm a total Cigar Pete myself. I just lettem dress me up and draw the line when they come at me with tweezers. I lettem trim my eyebrows for my wedding day; that's it.
And me, my fingernails are naturally perfect--never would need a manicure--a thing that's totally wasted on me.
I prefer red heads . . . just saying . . .Why do the girls guys think are "hot" always have DD boobs and blonde hair?
But your wife is blonde...
Well, to answer Medesha's question, the main reason you see that particular stereotype is purely based on the "soft female form" that has been prevalent for thousands of years. Pay attention to old greek sculptures, the masters of the rennaissance, and into modern realists. The general form stayed pretty much the same. Biologically, "curvy" forms were there to trick the males of the species into believing that they needed protection (not my words, a discovery/history channel show). These things also made feeding the young slightly easier (again as before feom that show).Personally, I like brunettes. I also don't like the "area 51" look that some women believe is hot (mind you, I find long, spindly, malnourished bodies unappealing). Each person has something they look for.
Me, I look at hair color, facial structure, and then the rest of the body. You'd be amazed how many women in the "DD blonde" category fall right off the list due to a cut and paste look they all have. Seriously, look at the model's face and compare with others... They're all the freaking same! I find that disgusting (and as such am an anomaly).
So, those folks in marketing prolly use those thousands of years of research that have been done for them, and have thus found it true. Offensive, yep. Do they do it anyways? You bet, 'cause it sells.
Whew! That was long winded. I'll apologize in advance, 'cause I know I just offended a few folks.
/d
I noticed all the drooling on this thread and correctly predicted there would be VERY androgynous guys involved... bingo! Yes, it's a gender-based stereotype, but I've never found an exception.
Well obviously you've never met my husband, then, because I'm an exception. I think he's the handsomest guy on the planet. Jason and I (Yes, it was Hallowe'en. The hair is all his own).
Honestly, there must be exceptions, because otherwise all women would go for androgynous boy-men, and obviously women do go for manly men, hairy men, fat men, and old men. And my question was rhetorical because obviously men do go for redheads, brunettes, petite women, small-chested women, fat women, hairy women, and old women. Stereotypes are stupid.
Medesha, no need to be so quick to take offense; I was honestly curious.
I do take offense when people lump me into an "always" category, as in, "why do women always go for guys like this?" "We" don't. The word "women" encompasses individuals with individual tastes. I understand and appreciate your points above, but you didn't ask, "Why do images like this repeatedly appear in women's magazines?" or "What is the appeal of androgynous men, or men with feminine features?" Those questions I would not have found offensive.
I don't mean to come off mean or anything, and I'm not really mad. I just find "always" statements irksome, and prefer more specific questions.
-Amber S, the Detailed