RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I'm sure most of you are aware of the feat 'Practiced Spellcaster.' For those who aren't, it basically allows you to add up to 4 levels to your effective caster level for the purposes of overcoming SR, determining spell durations, etc. but not increase the number of spell slots or known spells. However, the bonus to your caster level cannot raise your total caster level higher than your total hit dice. (i.e. A fighter 4/wizard 1 with this feat would be a 5th level caster but could only cast 1st level spells. If the character gained another fighter level, he would still only be a 5th level caster. Similarly, a wizard 2/rogue 1 with this feat would only be a 3rd level caster.)
I'm thinking about expanding this type of feat into other areas of expertised. Here are some examples:
Practiced Opportunist - May treat sneak attack class as up to 4 levels higher for sneak attack bonuses.
Practiced Crusader - May treat paladin level as up to 4 higher for smite evil.
Practiced Knowledge - May treat bardic knowledge (or equivalent) class as up to 4 higher for bardic knowledge (or equivalent) bonus.
Practiced Monk - May treat monk level as up to 4 higher for purposes of unarmed strike damage and AC bonus.
Practiced Shapeshifter - May treat druid level as up to 4 higher for determining frequency of shapeshifting (but not available forms).
These are just some preliminary ideas and may need some tweaking. Does anyone think these feats are too powereful? Not useful? Too narrow? Let me know. Thanks!
I don't think any of the are overpowered. They have already tried to do this for some classes in I think the Complete Adventurer. They are feats that allow certain class features to continue to increase if you multiclass bewteen to specific classes. Like a Paldin/Ranger would add both class level together for the purposes of determining Smite and say animal companion level. That sort of thing. Your feat actually may be too focused in comparision.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
They have already tried to do this for some classes in I think the Complete Adventurer. They are feats that allow certain class features to continue to increase if you multiclass bewteen to specific classes. Like a Paldin/Ranger would add both class level together for the purposes of determining Smite and say animal companion level.
Yes, I was aware of those feats. The problem I had with them is that they only permit SPECIFIC class combinations. For example, what if I want to advance my smite evil while taking levels of cleric? What if I want to increase my sneak attack while multiclassing into fighter? These sorts of things. The advantage to using the 'focused' feats is that you get BOTH classes to advance AND you aren't limited to four levels of advancement. My feats would kind of broaden that horizon a bit for limited purposes.
Thank you very much for the input, though! I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to say as well.
I agree. There are some more of the "class combo" stacking feats in the new complete books (scoundrel). but they still only allow for certain combos. x and x. predetermined. I would either like a much broader variety of those, or some formula feat, for choosing any one class ability from each of two different classes, and allowing the levels to stack for determining that ability. Obviously you couldn't choose spellcasting and base attack (for a bad example), but you get the idea I hope.
Carry on the good work.
I agree. There are some more of the "class combo" stacking feats in the new complete books (scoundrel). but they still only allow for certain combos. x and x. predetermined. I would either like a much broader variety of those, or some formula feat, for choosing any one class ability from each of two different classes, and allowing the levels to stack for determining that ability. Obviously you couldn't choose spellcasting and base attack (for a bad example), but you get the idea I hope.
Carry on the good work.
I would say that if you don't see a feat for a combo you like then make one. Really you could go either way with the Practised feat or make you own combo feat.
|
"Practiced Opportunist - May treat sneak attack class as up to 4 levels higher for sneak attack bonuses."
Ohhhh, man, I would be on that one in a heartbeat. I'm gonna have to try to sell my DM on this one...
I'd be wary of making a feat that doesn't apply to a pair of specific classes. I immediately think the rogue one is too powerful. What 5 fighter/1 rogue would not take it? That's +3d6 on almost every melee attack for the cost of 1 feat.
I'm not sure how I feel about it...because the sneak attack advances so much more dramatically than other class features (bardic knowledge, for example), it might be a bit overpowered. Perhaps it could be reworked so that you can treat the sneak attack class level as one higher for every TWO levels gained in another class? That way, you'd have to be minimally 9th level before receiving the additional +2d6, which, while still nice, is more on par with other abilities becoming available at that time.
Still, consider that sneak attack is an easily restricted ability, as half of the creature types ignore it. Also, Practiced Opportunist should not be on the Fighter Bonus Feat list. If it requires a prerequisite of 1d6 sneak attack, that restricts the various combinations of classes. It could even have a requirement of +1 base attack, which would restrict it to the 3rd level feat regardless.
My group LOVES the multi-classing options feats, as do I. As a result, we've experimented with more than a few new ones. I'd particularly be interested in feedback on the following two, which have turned out to be by far the most contentious:
MURDEROUS THEURGY [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Assassin 1, Sorcerer 1, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks.
Benefit: You lose all assassin spellcasting ability. Instead, you cast arcane spells as a sorcerer whose level is equal to one less than the sum of your sorcerer levels and your assassin levels (e.g., a Rogue 4/Sorcerer 1/Assassin 3 casts spells as a 3rd level sorcerer). When choosing spells known, you may freely select those on the assassin list as if they were wizard/sorcerer spells.
DRUIDIC SPELL THEURGY [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Druid 1st, Ranger 2nd, Knowledge (nature) 3 ranks.
Benefit: You lose all ranger spellcasting ability (if you do not yet have the ability to cast ranger spells, you never gain that ability). Instead, you add half your ranger class level to your druid level to determine your effective druid caster level. You may also prepare ranger spells as if they were druid spells.
Special: This feat does not affect any other class features, only spellcasting.
Normal: Multiclassed druid/rangers must follow the spellcasting progressions for each class individually.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
To Kirth:
Those are definitely interesting ideas. My only issue with them is that they appear to advance the spellcasting of the classes as well as the caster level. Perhaps I am wrong? Such feats should not actually grant access to higher level spells or additional spells per day, simply increase the effective caster level for the purposes of duration and overcoming SR.
Think about it: Why would any sorcerer/assassin NOT choose your feat? Continued spell advancement at the cost of a separate, limited useage spell list? Who would turn it down? A feat should never be SO useful that NOT taking it would be considered foolish in any scenario.
You make a solid effort in balancing these by removing the secondary class's spellcasting abilities but... I'm still not convinced. I might need some playtesting to truly make up my mind on these. Suffice to say that I think they're very good... I'm just worried that they might be TOO good.
I'm actually considering a variation on the above that wouldn't require levels in the appropriate class. So taking Experienced Thug (or whatever) would simply give you Sneak Attack as if you had four, or four additional levels, in Rogue. Again, it would be capped by your Hit Dice, so a 2nd level Fighter would still only have +1d6 sneak attack. You can take the feats multiple times, each time increasing the amount by 4. There's some unbalance to this - for example, a 6th level human Sorcerer could take the feat 3 times and would have sneak attack as a rogue until level 12 - but remember that he's missing out on all the other rogue class features (8 skill points, trap sense, evasion, uncanny dodge, rogue special abilities) as well as three vital feat slots that could be used to otherwise augment his natural abilities. And most importantly the level cap is still in place - the sorcerer mentioned previously would still only have +3d6 sneak attack at 6th level.
One area these feats have great application in is Turning. So few PrCs actually advance this class feature, and I've actually seen people fail to consider it until they were already two levels into the class and just now facing undead. Upon calculating their turning abilities, their reaction was "Crap!"
Obviously, the Complete Adventurer's feats are simply a template for combining progressions in two class features by taking a single feat. I'm not sure if I totally like that idea, because having some builds and options that just aren't possible seems to add a desireable level of structure and style to the game, while these feats destroy that. On the other hand, they allow for really cool character concepts and builds that no one would do without the feats. So, I typically would allow them (although to my knowledge no one has asked to use them yet), and just cringe inside.
The feats presented here in the OP address this issue at once; they certainly aren't as powerful as continual progression in two class features with just one feat, which takes out some of the DM cringe factor. Some playerrs may think they're not as good as the Complete Adventurer's feats (they aren't), and that would make them inviable, but I would hope that actual playtesting would prove them wrong (about the viability). Many such builds are captured in a PrC already that allows continued progression once you're in it, so recapturing four lost levels should be more than enough to make up for that.
Final analysis: good idea, kudos!
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I'm actually considering a variation on the above that wouldn't require levels in the appropriate class. So taking Experienced Thug (or whatever) would simply give you Sneak Attack as if you had four, or four additional levels, in Rogue.
I actually kind of like this idea. I don't find there to be any unbalance since, as you said, the sorcerer is eating up his feat slots to pull it off and not getting any other class benefits.
This would be a really great feat for bards and rangers, too. I'd take it.
To Kirth:
Those are definitely interesting ideas. My only issue with them is that they appear to advance the spellcasting of the classes as well as the caster level. Perhaps I am wrong?
You're not wrong; that's why they're so contentious.
Such feats should not actually grant access to higher level spells or additional spells per day, simply increase the effective caster level for the purposes of duration and overcoming SR.
That would be "Practiced Spellcaster" under a different name, but with a required class and no cap? Extraneous, in that case.
Think about it: Why would any sorcerer/assassin NOT choose your feat? Continued spell advancement at the cost of a separate, limited useage spell list? Who would turn it down? A feat should never be SO useful that NOT taking it would be considered foolish in any scenario. You make a solid effort in balancing these by removing the secondary class's spellcasting abilities but... I'm still not convinced. I might need some playtesting to truly make up my mind on these. Suffice to say that I think they're very good... I'm just worried that they might be TOO good.
Agreed on all counts. I wonder if I could convince any of my fellow Paizoans to help play-test them? Thus far we've tried them with only one character each, in only one adventure, and the results are rather inconclusive.