Ok I’m 22 I’ve been working a decent paying job the last 3 years. I’ve been working since I was 15 at various jobs. I graduated from high school at 17. I’ve finished college with a double major: political science and legal studies. I’m in law school now, plus to boot I’m engaged… Ok I want to move to Africa or New Guinea or Taminbar or some where. Does this sound like a life crisis? Should I just move? I’m not sure my education would be of much use outside of the U.S. and the “Western World”. Any ideas?
Fizz
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My advice - why do you want to do it? Is it because you really want to go to Africa on a long term basis, or are you trying to avoid something else (marriage, duff job, pressure of expectations or whatever) in which case you need to think deeply about whether what you are planning is a good idea. You seriously need to address your motivations before you can decide whether this is a good idea, and address the REAL issues you are facing. If the appropriate action is to go to Africa, then fine. But you are at a funny age - moving from a relatively low expectations environment where you can do what you feel to te full impact of adult responsibilities, and that can be difficult (it was for me).
I know, in my own part, that I talk a lot about giving up work and living in a rural idyll when I have a job I don't like. I get a better job, suddenly growing potatoes has much less appeal. So don't make any decisions on the fly - those are the worst. Listen to your Uncle Aubrey......
I will say I've been on my own since I was 17 ie I paid for my college, my living arrangments, my food, my cell, my car. My family was emotionaly supportive, but we are all very independent. Both of my parents put themselves through college, and I was expected to do this to. Now one is a radiologist (spelling?) and the other is a narcotics investigator. With this said I broke away from my parents and left the nest a long time ago. My job pays very well and I love my fiancé very much, but I just feel like my life is alittle empty. I have aways dreamed of going to Africa or New Guinea to help, to hunt, to just see what it's like.
Fizz
Hey, Fizzban, I'm of a similar age to you (21), if a different situation. I think it's great if you want to go down to Africa to help out, since there are a lot of things that need addressing down there (AIDS crisis, Darfur genocide, etc.), but you do have a life of your own to think about. Have you discussed this idea with your fiance? How does she feel? Would you only be satisfied going to the country yourself and having that radical change, or can you find employment in your area that fills that need? Is there a way your expertise can be helpful in that region? If not, is there a way to gain expertise that would? Would this idea have a better future as a long-term goal? Perhaps doing a few smaller trips down there to volunteer would be a good idea before taking the plunge. How can you take incremental steps from where you are to where you want to be in a way that is satisfying to you in the present and will help you figure out your destination?
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Finish Law School and join one of the services (e.g. US Army): lots of benefits to being a military lawyer, besides pretty good pay, an annual Special Skills Bonus (we're talking tens-of-thousands); and best of all, you can go to any country where we have a military presence--I'm not trying to recruit you or anything, but that's a safe, secure way to conduct long-term visits to other countries, use your education, and take your family with you: overseas bases are like little pockets of America, so unless you want to live in a grass or mud hut...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Just go practice a couple years, there's nothing like being a lawyer to kill that annoying soul.
Here's the deal. During your first year out of law school, you need to find a job. If you screw around and see Africa and help farmers grow rice you're going to come back x years later and be competing with a crop of new fresh lawyers straight out of law school. You might have to take the bar again. You're going to have a tough job finding a job.
I guess I would ask why you went to law school in the first place. If you think you want to be a lawyer, now is the time to do it. I would think that if you're going to spend 3 years of your life, and most likely around $100k, you might as well give it a go and see if you like it. If it's not your thing, quit. But it's a lot harder to get into the gig than it is to get out, so keep that in mind while weighing your choices.
Personally, I took three years off between undergrad and law school and I wish I hadn't. The differential in income is so great, particularly when you are young and without children. Plus, law (at least at a big firm) is not the most family friendly occupation.
So, I would say suck it up and do what you're on your way to doing. Structure your life so that you aren't dependent on an attorney's salary. Use that extra money to visit Africa if you think you want to move your life there. Make sure you can bail out if the practice of law does not float your boat. Keep the maximum number of doors open and don't close the doors on the opportunities at hand.
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Finish Law School and join one of the services (e.g. US Army): lots of benefits to being a military lawyer, besides pretty good pay, an annual Special Skills Bonus (we're talking tens-of-thousands); and best of all, you can go to any country where we have a military presence--I'm not trying to recruit you or anything, but that's a safe, secure way to conduct long-term visits to other countries, use your education, and take your family with you: overseas bases are like little pockets of America, so unless you want to live in a grass or mud hut...
Great advice in this instance. It sounds like OP has life firmly by the reins. I have a feeling that just up and moving like that would knock the momentum from your obviously awesome life thus far and would possibly end up doing enough damage to make your contributions in a underpriveledged area less than they could be. The military thing would get you there and bring you back with a broader scope of what is needed to assist those who are in need. Even if not the military, maybe consider Peace Corp or Red Cross or something similiar.
I wish you the best of luck and commend a spirit who thinks of others and has a desire to do all he/she can to help.FH
Well of course he could only mean Tanzania.
I think it's wild that Fizzban knows he'll die at 88. That is just spooky.
Good look on your journey, wherever it takes you, Fizzy.
Ok I’m going to kind of “talk though” and “think out” what most of what every one said.
1. The Military. Well I have two uncles that both were in for 35 years each. I have several other family members in the military. I have been very much exposed to military life for better or worse. It is a very good option, but it never seemed right for me. I thought long and hard about think coming out of High School.
2. Why did I want to be a lawyer? A short and sweet answer the money. However, it’s kind of a family thing, and it’s in my blood. My grandfather was a lawyer, and my great uncle and great aunt are lawyers and own a law firm. I’ve always loved the skill of it. Because of this reason I’m not too worried about finding a job after law school.
3. Law and Politics killing my soul…I’ve started to think I’m a little bit of an a@##@*+. I wanted to go into politics; I tried as an internship but hated the atmosphere. After getting a degree in Political Science and Legal Studies and a year in Law School it’s turned me into a bitter cynical person, who usually assumes everyone is lying to me, wanting something, or has some angle. I chalk this up mostly to all the study in Politics. With that said I feel a little empty and predetermined in life. Hey Fizz you were basically told and expected to go into law and or politics. Hey Fizz you have been chasing a fat pay check your whole life…
4. Peace Corp. Red Cross. I don’t know too much about either, but I’ll have to look into it. It could be a good answer.
5. I am aware of how big and how many countries are in Africa. I am also aware of the AIDs epidemic, and the mass genocide in about 15 countries. Which we do nothing because there is no natural resources, military advantage point, or political alliance from helping most places in Africa. Nigeria being an exception because of their oil. I understand why we do nothing, and if I was in political power I don’t think I would do anything either. Because of that I feel like a bastard, and that’s why I started hating politics. It makes me feel like people are numbers not humans.
Well that covers a lot of things. I really appreciate all the advice and help. I’m going to keep thinking about all this, and I don’t plan on leaving law school anytime soon. I’m going to talk to some family and my fiancé, and see what they think. I still want to hear what people think. I don’t care if it’s just advice or stories about life experiences.
Thanks again Fizz
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Let me add another vote for Peace Corps. I spent two years in the Philippines. Great experience, both from the "see the world" aspect and the "hey, the US isn't as bad as I thought" aspect. I also taught English in Mexico for a while, which was another good experience, but mostly only because I eventually became a teacher. Peace Corps doesn't pay crap (and no, they don't forgive your loans), but it looks great on the resume.
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Law and Politics killing my soul…I’ve started to think I’m a little bit of an a@#**%*. I wanted to go into politics; I tried as an internship but hated the atmosphere. After getting a degree in Political Science and Legal Studies and a year in Law School it’s turned me into a bitter cynical person, who usually assumes everyone is lying to me, wanting something, or has some angle. I chalk this up mostly to all the study in Politics.
Hey, welcome to my world! Ummm...., changing topics:
A couple of friends of mine spent time in the Peace Corps - one spent 18 months digging wells in Chad, another two years teaching English in Laos. Both say it is the best thing they ever did. Be aware that the pay is a big fat zero, which is why I can't really consider it (I have bills to pay). If I were you, I would not do this after law school - instead, see if you can take a few terms off and then come back refreshed and with a renewed purpose. If you decide you liked the Peace Corps experience, you could then look into other, more permanent, Third World-helping jobs, such as with the Red Cross, World Food Programme or the UNHCR. As an added benefit, you would then have the kind of specialist knowledge these organisations are looking for.
I'm 33 now, and I'm kicking myself regularly for not having done anything like what you're thinking about when I had the chance, and, at 22 and in law school already, you are way ahead of the curve. I say go for it - but be smart about it; don't go somewhere blindly, and make sure to research your options first.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Ahhh...the picture becomes clearer. This crisis comes right around the time of grades for the first year, does it not? I probably assume too much, but I met more than my fair share of heir apparent law students who found out their genetic disposition could not write the proverbial check at exam time.
I'm going to take my bootstrapping chip to another thread before I say something else unfounded that I regret.
Good luck with your decision.
Sorry Sebastian wrong. I me and myself have paid for my education. When you use your own money you get serious really quick. I don't f@~% around in school. I'm doing well in law school, and I'm very proud of it. It just all feels lackluster and a little meaningless.
Fizz
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When I was in school, studying what I do now, I had what I refer to as the "escape plan."
If I screwed it all up royally, I would just move to Alaska, buy a deer rifle, and live off the land; to hell with society and all its banal idiosyncracies. I shot pretty damn good in the Army anyway; what the hell.
Of course, I did what I did, I do what I do now, and I never had to take off for the great white north.
I don't think some talking head on a computer can tell you what to do with your life. I just want to let you know that you're not the only person on earth who conceived of the "escape plan."
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sorry Sebastian wrong. I me and myself have paid for my education. When you use your own money you get serious really quick. I don't f@*& around in school. I'm doing well in law school, and I'm very proud of it. It just all feels lackluster and a little meaningless.
Fizz
Sometimes it's good to be wrong.
Sorry to jump to conclusions, and incorrectly at that. I met so many people in law school with terrific opportunities just waiting for them in the wings but who acted as if running the family business was beneath their dignity. Like I said, I have a bootstrapping chip; I'm glad I didn't follow it further.
My better half pointed out to me that a lot of people have doubts at this point in first year and realize law is not for them. It's entirely possible that even if Africa is not the answer, law school may not be either.
I don't think I want to give up law, and if you can't tell my family is a little cold. You don't get anything you can't earn or keep. I think that coldness may come from having legal or law centered careers, or maybe it's the other way around. I would like to be less money driven in life. Money is very important to life, but life comes before money right? I would like to believe this, and not just have the cynical view that I seem to be having.
Fizz
Some random thoughts...law is not the best subject to study for people who want to go abroad as the education is typically not very applicable in other countries (it's different for us who are doing natural sciences, we can go anywhere and electrons still spin around nuclei). So if you go places you will be looking mostly for "grunt" work.
Also I am wondering about that short-and-sweet answer for being a lawyer: money...since what you described will definitely not bring you big bucks (unless you go and write a best-selling novel about your experiences or something).
Other than that, I recommend looking at it, maybe go to discuss with people in Red Cross, Peace Corps or such what would the options be...
That would also narrow a bit where to go...as others have said, Africa is big continent, and issues are different in, say, Sudan, Cameroon and Mozambique. Not to mention New Guinea...
First I am not a lawyer - but I do have friends that are, they are not soulless, so it may not happen.
Second, going to Africa, or Asia -does not necessarily mean working in a ditch with fly covered kids, it can if you want it to, and if you do GREAT - the world needs people to do that. There is LOTS of business to be done in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Western expatriates can:
1. Practice the professions they are trained
2. Do good in those countries by raising the level of business practice - gardens or the poor are great, and necessary in the short term, but countries will really eliminate poverty, when they create wealth, wealth is created through business - bringing the third world to first world standards in terms, or legal and business practice is real work as well as a real contribution
3. Give you unique personal skills to bring home - cultural diversity in the states - well its a joke, you want to learn what tolerance is, what predjudice is - work and live (not visit) another country
4. Help you develop unique business skills - in Africa as a lawyer you would probably learn A LOT about islamic banking and finance - a skill set that will become increasingly relevant, even in the US as the muslim population of the world grows, spreads, and does more business internationally
5. Give you professional opportunities and responsibilties far beyond your education and experience right out of the gate - because of you American Passport and Education
6. Provide you with benefits and travel opportunities far beyond what you could match domestically - in an apples to apples position
7. And if you want to do "good works" you have weekends and after hours
8. You will form very intense friendships with other expats from all over the western world - some with locals but less so
There are downsides
1. You will be away from family and friends - and they probably won't keep in touch any where near the degree you expect they will or you want them to
2. Medical care is probably okay for planned stuff - emergency care even emergency response is sketchy
3. Continuing education - very limited (meaningful)opportunities
4. Expatriate life is different - thats wonderful and frustrating - depends on the kind of person you are
5. You're friends and family won't be able to relate, understand, or share your experience - that frustrating
5. You probably won't be able to pursue the same hobbies and interests, movies, art, tv - D&D even books are not around or there but in limited forms
This isn't conjecture - I live and work abroad with my family - I went to Saudi (to work in business, not to teach English, do aid work, or as part of the military - though I was in the service and think thats a great option) at 24. Great experience, frustrating, fun, learned a ton about myself about the world, and about relationships. I am in Dubai now - and again great experience.
More Americans should travel and work abroad - as a people we are tragically ignorant of the world - I don't mean books and news - though living abroad will make you lose faith in all but the best American journalism - LIVING in another country is an an amazing experience. Don't let people who haven't done it or have never seriously considered it dissuade you. Similarly, don't let some one tell you everyone should do it - its not for everyone - those it works for will grow - other will flounder and bad things can happen, bad works habits, drinking, broken marriages, etc. It isn't an easy way out of the humdrum - don't think it ease. It will be hard on your marriage - but if you make it you will share a unique bond.
As a qualifier, at present I am about halfway through a 3 year contract in Dubai - and will probably extend. I recommend Dubai for a young lawyer - there is no economic boom like it anywhere else in the world. Expensive place to live though - but we cam out of the NY/NJ metro so for us its about a wash.
Anyway thats probably enough for a D&D messageboard - if you want counsel and this post is helpful - you can post here or if you want to really get into what life abroad is like you can contact me at noel.scott@gmail.com.
I this is helpful to you - didn't proof it.
If I don't hear from you good luck whatever your decision. Oh and involve you fiance in the process.
Salam
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Sorry Sebastian wrong. I me and myself have paid for my education. When you use your own money you get serious really quick. I don't f%!% around in school. I'm doing well in law school, and I'm very proud of it. It just all feels lackluster and a little meaningless.
Fizz
Fizz, what is "meaning"? What is the lack of it? Life has the meaning you inject into it. While I know you paid for your education and were independent since the age of 17 blah blah blah (and by the way, I'm not belittling that - it's a pretty impressive achievement) you are still just hitting the street in terms of adult life, having been in full time education (and university is NOT real life). Based on what you have written above in a number of posts, I think you are disappointed at the general lack of ooomph that working life has to offer. You studied for stuff, like politics and the law, and the actual reality has been disappointing.
Politics proved to be about presentation and not about policies to improve things (I was interested in politics too, and the reality disappointed me as well) and the law stuff isn't much better, I suspect. A lot of us has misapprehensions about what life and such is like when we are young.
Yes, OK, you looked after yourself from a young age, but you were hardly sweeping chimneys to make a crust, I suspect. The reality of life is somewhat drab in lots of ways. But it also sounds like you have a lot going for you - financee, supportinve family, intelligence and, I suspect, integrity.
In my view, life has no meaning other than what you choose to attach to it. Does my job excite me? No way! Am I happy? Yes: I earn enough to have a good life, my colleagues are a decent enough bunch, I have a nice house I live in with a woman I love, my family are great. I don't really need to break my back trying to extract meaning from random and unrelated life events. Adult life initially disappointed me, but I came to an accommodation with it. It is sort of, just like that.
Now, I don't want to dissuade you from something you might really, really want to do. But the whole set-up you describe sounds familiar to me, and would have been very familiar to me about 15 years ago. Be very careful what you decide becasue this part of your life is pretty crucial. Africa may be a great place to visit (I have my doubts, personally, but I don't really do Third World countries as a matter of personal taste), but it might be better to do it with the benefit of experience and some money in your back pocket. And how sure are you really? Surely you don't need the approbation of a bunch of anonymous avatars to validate your decision if this was really your dream.
Ok I’m 22 I’ve been working a decent paying job the last 3 years. I’ve been working since I was 15 at various jobs. I graduated from high school at 17. I’ve finished college with a double major: political science and legal studies. I’m in law school now, plus to boot I’m engaged… Ok I want to move to Africa or New Guinea or Taminbar or some where. Does this sound like a life crisis? Should I just move? I’m not sure my education would be of much use outside of the U.S. and the “Western World”. Any ideas?
Fizz
Ack! take a few aspirin and lay down. That is more than a crisis; if you wanna risk your life and well being go play on the highway; is safer even blindfolded and having drug withdrawls; whew, maybe is just me, but that place is creepy and dangerous. In America you can wear a T shirt that says "I stand for everything you don't believe in" and most people will chuckle, maybe a few will give you a hard time; but over there most places; they really believe that stuff and will kill you for it.
Do yourself a favor; read the CIA factsheets on those places and check with the State Department; get educated, it is your greatest tool. Then maybe see if you can get some of their newspapers; some places carry them or you can read them online, read some of their laws or some basic fact sheets about laws in those countries.
If you want to do it after you get some info; then go for it; will be an adventure.
Just a thought...
Have you thought of just going to Africa on vacation first just to see if you like it? Who knows, maybe after a couple of weeks you'll discover that you actually miss your homeland.
I have found that turning your whole world upside down in one decision can be a big mistake if not thought out properly.
One step at a time.
Ultradan
I’m still thinking and researching, but here are some of occupations I have had just to give you and idea of what skills I have. I do live in the south, have been exposed to both extremely rural areas and extremely urban areas. I have worked at pizza hut at 15, I laid brick, mixed mortar, etc at 16-17, worked as a telemarketer (a low point in my life) at 18-19, worked for a University doing paper work at 18-19 (this was at the same time as the telemarketer job). I’ve assisted at law firms at 20, and for the last two years I have been a supervisor in a human dimensions lab. People do research I make sure they are doing the research according to how the people, organizations, or companies that are buying the research want it. It’s something I just kind of fell into. Oh and some summer internships in Nashville and Memphis at state levels of gov’t. What skills does anyone see that would be helpful? Oh again, I can handle most firearms, hunt, track, ride horses, deal with farm animals and all that other redneck stuff. (I grew up on a cotton farm in the middle of nowhere)
Thanks again for all the help. I appreciate the sense of community that has developed.
Fizz
I say it again - never mind your skills. I still don't know why you want to do this.
I think just a short hard answers is:
I want to help and be less of a money grupping dick, and maybe find a little adventure, life experiances, and values along the way.Fizz
I say it again - never mind your skills. I still don't know why you want to do this.I think just a short hard answers is:
I want to help and be less of a money grupping dick, and maybe find a little adventure, life experiances, and values along the way.Fizz
Well then don't be, but that might be a little harder to execute than to think up. Because sadly money is important, but you are young (22 right) so you have time to waste (so to speak).
But all the previous posters made a good point, what do you want to give to the people in africa, and why? I believe you are more interested in self-discovery right now than actual wanting to help those people (this might come across somewhat harsh).
And what about your fiancee? Does she want to cross the ocean, and be your companion on your quest of self-discovery or does she maybe, just maybe have some other wishes?
But basically, you can NOT be a money grabbing yuppie, just apply yourself a little ;>
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Well, speaking as a money-grubbing dick, you can see I don't really get your motivations (or maybe I do, actually, but not anymore). However, I'm pretty sure Africa will be full of money-grubbing dicks - it is probably a bit less dick-ish to be money-grubbing there, since life is more precarious without any form of social security. I went out with a couple of girls (not at the same time) from a developing country (Thailand) and, for all their buddhist mysticicm you never met a more hard-nosed bunch.
I also think if you are somehow hoping to "save" Africa you could be disappointed - they may be actually fairly closed minded out there (again, based on my experience) and somewhat lacking in gratitude. And, while I am sure you have the best of intentions, that does smack slightly of a certain Western-imperialist smugness and a general naivety about human nature. People tend to be just a tad ungrateful - it's a sad fact of life.
I feel a bit like I'm bashing on a brick wall here. I don't really know your deep-seated reasons, and in any case they are your own and you are entitled to them. I do think there is a bigger issue here that you haven't articulated, and maybe you aren't ready to address those issues in your life yet.
But on the other hand, you may have a very clear view of what you are about, and what you want to do, and going to Africa could be the best thing that happens for you in your personal growth. I really wish you well, in whatever you do.
But, as a final comment, let me say this one thing: don't assume you are unique in all of this. I'm 35, and there are lots of guys on here this age or older who have had similar feelings of dissatisfaction, and who have dealt with them in other ways. We have been through this, and made our choices, most of which didn't involve Africa or other far flung bolt-holes in the final analysis. Most of us are saying "Whoa, you need to think about this." So maybe we are cynical and jaded, but maybe we also have experience of what you are going through. Maybe Africa will be the best thing for you, and in some ways I hope it is - if it really is what you want to do, it should be a fantastic adventure. But I would suggest a great deal of introspection first.
Best of luck, Fizz.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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a bunch of money grubbing cynical minded stuff
That's ridiculous!!! You cynical money grubbing dick!
Oh wait...I'm a money grubbing dick too. And I agree with everything you said. This whole topic tends to piss me off and you are being much more artful than I would be in expressing the stuff I am thinking, but without the blunt attacks I like to insert. You're a good man.
Aubrey, if you ever make it out to this godforsaken desert, I'd buy you a beer (or a Guiness, or whatever the hell it is you damn brits drink).
Sebastian
Money-grubbing dick
Ok I think I have an answer…I am going to finish up with law school, but I’m planning a 6 to 8 week trip to Africa this summer. I talked to some family and friends. My fiancé’s uncle is a preacher who spent two years in Africa “spreading the word of God”. Which I don’t really go for forcing religion on others (I’m Agnostic a sore spot in my Sothern Baptist family), but they have mission programs for people who want to help. I figured 6 to 8 weeks would be a good start. If I enjoy what I’m doing I might consider longer stays in the future or maybe a tour of duty in the Navy after law school. My fiancé is ok with this, and I should be able to get a leave from work. I think this is a good idea. I will have the feeling of helping humanity, and still be the cynical, jaded, money grubbing dick that I have always been. What do you all think?
Fizz
I would like to thank all of you for your advice and help. I appreciate all of you for being sympathetic, and a big thanks to all of the money grubbing dicks out there who weren’t afraid to be a hard asses.
Just wanted to chip in and say that, whatever your skill set, the Peace Corps is a pretty neat option. My roommate's 22, and he ships out for a two-year Peace Corps stint in Uganda next month as a teacher trainer. (He won't even be teaching in his field - they just need educated westerners to help introduce our teaching methods.) The pay may not be as good as the military, but you're far less likely to have to shoot anybody. Just sayin'.
Either option's pretty hard on relationships, though. Best of luck!
Ok I’m 22 I’ve been working a decent paying job the last 3 years. I’ve been working since I was 15 at various jobs. I graduated from high school at 17. I’ve finished college with a double major: political science and legal studies. I’m in law school now, plus to boot I’m engaged… Ok I want to move to Africa or New Guinea or Taminbar or some where. Does this sound like a life crisis? Should I just move? I’m not sure my education would be of much use outside of the U.S. and the “Western World”. Any ideas?
Fizz
Dude, you'll get eaten!
well, my perspective is from the military; can't say I been everywhere and done everything, but really; there are some things I wish I have never seen and really didn't want to do, but hey; duty. Africa can be a bad, bad, lawless place, but can also be beautiful and amazing; the shots you have to get to go their just suck and malaria is no joke; just getting those shots means you can't give blood for like a decade.
Probably be better if you go with a group like on vacation or join a group like peace corps or something for a sense of group awareness and security as well as the shelter that the organization can give you. I still think it would be a cheaper life lesson to play on a busy highway at night while blindfolded, but hey, don't let that put you off :) Maybe you like things like death, famine, disease, and civil unrest among tribes of people with obscure motivations and wild religious convictions. I am sure there is a semi tame and somewhat normalized area somewhere that you can find a niche and fit in? are you a muslim? that might help; not sure, but would open a lot of places closed to someone like me. Do you speak any of the languages? that would help to; go native.
I am all for going places and new experiences, but hmm Africa, that is the last place on earth I would ever go. If you want to experience Egypt; well, do you have access to a fireplace? the sand there is yellow, with the consistancy of soot; I really cant describe all the places that stuff gets into; we were shaking that crude out of our tents for months; is like talcom powder; really nasty stuff and we had a saying; Africa Hot; now I live in the desert here in the USA and temps of 110 and 115 dont faze me, but that place is ungodly hot. If your a fair weather person used to moderate temps; check your almanac to check the temps averages and extremes of weather in those place your want to go; never been to some you mentioned.
I hope I dont sound like a total bummer, but my perspective is squewed and I know it; am just concerned and trying to help.
The organization I was talking about is in league with the Southern Baptist Journeymen, so there will be a community (God don’t let them try to convert me) with a foundation already there. They preach and do charity work around the world. I’m hoping to hop on the charity part. As for languages I speak English and Italian fluently (Which in hindsight Italian is the most useless language in the world), and some broken German from my Grandmother. I still want to go, but I am being more caution than when I started this idea.
Fizz
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My roommate's 22, and he ships out for a two-year Peace Corps stint in Uganda next month as a teacher trainer. (He won't even be teaching in his field - they just need educated westerners to help introduce our teaching methods.)
That's exactly what I did, except in the Philippines. If he hasn't already, tell him to do a bunch of internet searches for "Peace Corps Uganda" and he may be able to find others in his group. Also, feel free to pass him my e-mail if he as any questions about what it's like (more the process than the specifics, but some parts of the experience seem pretty universal after talking to other returned volunteers).
peacecorpsbrian at hotmail dot com
ps- On the address, I'm not psycho pro-PC anything, it's just really easy for people to remember.
I am surprised at the (general) lack of support for the spirit of exploration, drive to do good, and desire pursue a different life - from a messageboard of "adventurers".
Also the levele of resistance from folks that - to all appearances haven't worked overseas - or even seriously entertained the option.
I guess I shouldn't be.
As I said in my earlier post - it isn't either or - you can work IN YOUR PROFESSION - and do a great deal of good, creating wealth for yourself and your host country - the best way to eliminate poverty is the creation of wealth, eliminating poverty will eliminate a lot of the other problems. But its not getting your hands dirty - and thats an experience worth having as well.
Travel is a great start.
Good luck.
The organization I was talking about is in league with the Southern Baptist Journeymen, so there will be a community (God don’t let them try to convert me) with a foundation already there. They preach and do charity work around the world. I’m hoping to hop on the charity part. As for languages I speak English and Italian fluently (Which in hindsight Italian is the most useless language in the world), and some broken German from my Grandmother. I still want to go, but I am being more caution than when I started this idea.
Well, knowing Italian should help you in understanding French and Spanish, so that gets quite a lot of bases covered...German is nice if you come to Europe but pretty useless anywhere else :)
And indeed I am not trying to rain on the parade or anything but it is better for everyone that should you pursue this, you pursue it with realistic mindset.
Being involved in some organization is indeed a good thing, pretty much a requirement IMHO (that is, if you are not going to work for some company in "just a job" spirit like Kyr is apparently doing). So, go talk with them or with Peace Corps or Red Cross or such things about it and maybe they can shed more specific light about places and kinds of work.
Being ex-pat is indeed a strange life, even if I am boringly doing so only within Europe. But highly recommended if your situation in life allows it (and it looks good in your resume, should you feel like being moneygrubbing a****** later).
Oh, and Valegrim...I am bit cautious to come to USA because if CIA does not take me to some of their secret prisons for looking like a terrorist I will probably be an innocent bystander victim in drive-by shooting in some gang warfare or maybe get beaten up by rednecks for being a pinko hippie. I expect this to happen within 15 minutes of leaving the airport :)
Alright dude, let me tell you my take on this. I'm only 20, and I'm feeling a complete loss in where my life should be going as well (and it hasn't been going that well as of late). But if you're worried about being a money-grubbing dick...
Well there's only two ways to deal with that. First, is to be born and raised without a serious idea of money, like me. I was raised where... I got something if I really wanted it, but I turned out to not want much, and when I did, there was money for it, not really that much of a problem. Not rich by any sense, and more in the middle of middle class (Both parents 20+ years of Army, and when my mom retired... Been a nurse for like 14). My dad just retired, and because of "terrorism", you can't apply for a civilian military job for 6 months after you retire. Anyway, money was there, but no real big wants or anything. I like money, more is always good to have, but I'm usually happy whatever it is that's going on. This instilled a hard work ethic in me. Work for what you want. But as long as I have good food, a warm bed, and get my entertainment, we're all good.
Second of all, is to have a life-changing experience, which is what you're trying to do. Either spiritual (which you seem against, which is fine), or humanitarily. Usually when the humanitarian one happens though, people die. Unfortunately for you, no matter where you go, from here to the corners of the earth -- money (in essence, material possessions) will always, ALWAYS be important and a driving force for man. It's a sad fact. Most people would murder their neighbors for a million dollars if there was 100% chance no one would find out it was them. Of course there's the whole conscience thing, but the point is... People do some crazy s!*@ for money (reality TV is a fine example...). And going to a third world isn't going to be any different.
You go to a third world country to "help out". That's cool man, that's what the world needs, but don't think you're going to get away from people wanting things. And even if you do go to help, I'm sure they'd appreciate it, but... You're really going for your own benefit, and their benefit is just a bonus -- another money-grubbing dick instance.
In the end, do what makes you happy. If it's going to some third world country and chillin' for a while, that's fine. But I've been around the world, read about most places, and hear about the war torn parts here and there. You going one place isn't going to help in the end (Peace Corps argues against this...). The world is about possessions unless you're right in the middle of a firefight for peoples lives. Then your money has no hold, and when you find yourself in those kind of dire straits, making it out alive would be a rare gift indeed.
I say stay where you are. You've got a mad hot honey, going to a good school, on your way to a great (money) job. The only thing wrong in wanting material things is when people die for them, but as it stands, what you're doing is all good. Going overseas to help is something for emotional and spiritual benefit, and that's good. But what you're trying to get away from you can't. It's all around the world 20 times over. If you want a simpler life not so intent on money -- Finish what you're doing and live humbly. Going halfway around the world to find yourself is extreme, and a little crazy. Trust me, where you're at is far better than most, even by American standards. You should be proud of that, and not be trying to tear yourself down because others and yourself worked hard to get where you are. Trust me, it could be a lot worse. You could be a genius all throughout your school career and end up at a manual labor job doing crap work just for money to live. *Points to self* (Although... It's for my parents, I just happen to live with them. It effects me eventually.)
And indeed I am not trying to rain on the parade or anything but it is better for everyone that should you pursue this, you pursue it with realistic mindset.
Being involved in some organization is indeed a good thing, pretty much a requirement IMHO (that is, if you are not going to work for some company in "just a job" spirit like Kyr is apparently doing).
I am quoting Magdalena Thiriet because she seems to be operating under the misconception that I am trying to ask you to see around (not her fault I am sure it was the result of my post). You can be passionate about business AND business is te best thing for the developing world to beat it problems - and for us 1st worlders in tersm of establishing security.
I think charitible institutions are do great work - the sad fact though is that a huge percent of the money for most (at least US based charities goes to support the administration of those charities (85% in the case of some of the largest - if you don't beleive me look some up). Off whats left a decent chunk goes to fund the expat missions - leaving precious little for the work.
I don't approach my postition as just a job - I am in sales - if that was my approach I wouldn't be very successful (and I am). I need to bring enthusiasm and imagination to what I do or - nothing happens. Not saying I don't have bad days - but I work in business, I think business is exciting, that why I studied it, and thats why I am in it.
My decisions and activities directly impact my customers their sales, volumes, their profits, I design training and payplans.
I help people make money - money fights poverty roughly 1,400 people depend on what I do - more if you count suppliers and contractors. Many of those send money back to their countries of origin and fund education, and business start ups. I get paid well AND have an impact on poverty - by cultivating real jobs, instilling 21st century skill sets, and growing incomes. I don't operate under the delusion that I am doing charitible works, but impact, helping people achieve their dreams - I get that as a side benefit AND my own 1st world skills in my profession are developing as well.
I think the people that do selfless with charitable institutions are great - what thhey do is noble - and I am not trying to diminish that. (Especially people doing mine removal in Cambodia - met some of them wow!)
My point is that - you can have it all - you can make a contribution, have amazing experiences living and working abroad, and make a living and grow professionally. Business overseas can give all of that. Now working with an NGO will give skills as well and provide expereinces that I am sure are richer in many ways - but if you don't feel passionate about what they are doing - you'll likely struggle, you can sacrifice pay for something you are passionate about - sacrificing pay purely for the novelty of experience gets old.
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I am surprised at the (general) lack of support for the spirit of exploration, drive to do good, and desire pursue a different life - from a messageboard of "adventurers".
Also the levele of resistance from folks that - to all appearances haven't worked overseas - or even seriously entertained the option.
I guess I shouldn't be.
As I said in my earlier post - it isn't either or - you can work IN YOUR PROFESSION - and do a great deal of good, creating wealth for yourself and your host country - the best way to eliminate poverty is the creation of wealth, eliminating poverty will eliminate a lot of the other problems. But its not getting your hands dirty - and thats an experience worth having as well.
Travel is a great start.
Good luck.
Well, y'know Kyr, great for you. I think a lot of us are taking the view that Fizz is struggling with something big and that the desire to go to Africa is more of a symptom than a cure, and we are trying to get to that. In other words, it looks like a desire to escape from something, so we want to know what it is.
And I don't really disagree with you either - travel can be a fantastic experience. And you travel and are also a money-grubbing dick - the ideal combination!
Also, and no disrespect, you are an American (?) ex-pat living in the Middle East. This presumably involves living in a luxurious compound with armed guards and mixing predominately, especially socially, with other Westerners. I'm certainly not decrying what you are doing, absolutely agree with your idea that commerce and trade are the way out of poverty for developing countries (Tanzania and Korea had the same GDP per capita in the 1960s - the intervening forty or so years are a vindication of your views, with Korea pursuing trade and now a fully-developed nation, and Tanzania experimenting in agrarian socialism and now having the same per capita GDP it had in the 60s) and share your scepticism about NGOs. But that doesn't sound like deep immersion in a foreign culture to me.
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Aubrey, if you ever make it out to this godforsaken desert, I'd buy you a beer (or a Guiness, or whatever the hell it is you damn brits drink).
Seb, most kind. And it's a pint of bitter (room temperature, though maybe not the temperature of a room in a desert). Preferably a Timothy Taylor's, if you have one.
I don't operate under the delusion that I am doing charitible works, but impact, helping people achieve their dreams - I get that as a side benefit AND my own 1st world skills in my profession are developing as well.
Oh, I hope I didn't offend you with that "just a job" remark...indeed I meant it that the main purpose in what one was doing would be professional/personal and if it is for common good, great. Well, that's what I do anyway...I am in science and while what I appreciate the applications of things I study I did go for this job because it sounded interesting and is professional (and personal) growth for me. So it is "just a job" instead of life mission.
The problem in field of law is, as I mentioned before, that large part of it is rather difficult to apply in any other country...lawyers don't travel well, at least not as well as people in medicine, science or indeed business (not to mention good old construction workers).
I am surprised at the (general) lack of support for the spirit of exploration, drive to do good, and desire pursue a different life - from a messageboard of "adventurers".
Also the levele of resistance from folks that - to all appearances haven't worked overseas - or even seriously entertained the option.
I guess I shouldn't be.
As I said in my earlier post - it isn't either or - you can work IN YOUR PROFESSION - and do a great deal of good, creating wealth for yourself and your host country - the best way to eliminate poverty is the creation of wealth, eliminating poverty will eliminate a lot of the other problems. But its not getting your hands dirty - and thats an experience worth having as well.
Travel is a great start.
Good luck.
Well, y'know Kyr, great for you. I think a lot of us are taking the view that Fizz is struggling with something big and that the desire to go to Africa is more of a symptom than a cure, and we are trying to get to that. In other words, it looks like a desire to escape from something, so we want to know what it is.
And I don't really disagree with you either - travel can be a fantastic experience. And you travel and are also a money-grubbing dick - the ideal combination!
Also, and no disrespect, you are an American (?) ex-pat living in the Middle East. This presumably involves living in a luxurious compound with armed guards and mixing predominately, especially socially, with other Westerners. I'm certainly not decrying what you are doing, absolutely agree with your idea that commerce and trade are the way out of poverty for developing countries (Tanzania and Korea had the same GDP per capita in the 1960s - the intervening forty or so years are a vindication of your views, with Korea pursuing trade and now a fully-developed nation, and Tanzania experimenting in agrarian socialism and now having the same per capita GDP it had in the 60s) and share your scepticism about NGOs. But that doesn't sound like deep immersion in a...
Well you're right and wrong - life is like that when I went to Saudi at the OP age I didn't live on a compound - First I lived in an apartment in a local neighborhood with predominantly Saudi and expatriate arab neighbors, later I lived in villa (crappy one at that) in a local neighborhood with no western neighbors for blocks - and no the people I worked with weren't all Saudi's - but that isn't the culture of the GCC - I was the only westerner in my office - my coworkers were a reasonably close split of filipinos, pakastanis, sudanese, and indians - with a few other nationalities thrown in for flavor - there were Saudis but they were (generally) hired for specific role and worked out of the office. In the GCC everyone experience is multicultural - that is the culture. Most of my friends were European - but that was more economic and interest driven. I was not looking to do good works - that wasn't my goal - so my exposure was different - my point as the opportunities were and are there.
Now I am older and have a higher ranking position, wife, kids, and am older - so I am in a gated community with Syrian, Iraqi (if the flag is to be beleived), Turkish, and Japanese, and Pakastani neighbors.
No I don't live in a labor camp - which again is part of my point - you don't learn what working poor is until you have been out to a labor camp and see how guys who have spent years of future earnings to live in these environments.
My cultural experience is with my social and economic peers - other ambitious professionals - thats the way I like it. It doesn't have to be that way. I am not suggesting I made all of the same choices - I am suggesting that there are more options - than "NGO" or "stay at home in a job that bores you".
I also think that is in all Americans' personal best interest to encourage any one with the gumption to work abroad to do it. Funds are repatraiated good for the economy. They get a great tax break good for them and thier personal economy. And we get a voter with a broader world view that makes them better citizens. It also provides us with working ambassadors creating ties with people in other countries (you want to talk people total disconnected from country they live - US foreign service officers).
My opinion.
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I am surprised at the (general) lack of support for the spirit of exploration, drive to do good, and desire pursue a different life - from a messageboard of "adventurers".
Well, I think he might want to get college and/or Law School knocked out first. Just saying.
And anyway, who's an "adventurer" here?!?I've had plenty of "adventure" in my life. I'm not playing tiddlywinks when I say that either.
I think Bilbo might've had a good idea on that.
Ok I would like to clear up a couple of things. 1. I'm not running away from money. I love it. I would roll around naked in a big pile of it if I could. 2. I'm looking for I guess a bit of good carma. I know they won't care and it won't make a difference, but it will make me feel a little better, and maybe I'm looking for something spritual but not religious. So I'll cram my western imperialist help down their throats 3. If I go it WILL be with an organization. 4. School WILL be finished.
Fizz
5. Oh and Aubrey beer should never ever NEVER be at room temperature. The colder the better!
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Well you're right and wrong - life is like that when I went to Saudi at the OP age I didn't live on a compound - First I lived in an apartment in a local neighborhood with predominantly Saudi and expatriate arab neighbors, later I lived in villa (crappy one at that) in a local neighborhood with no western neighbors for blocks - and no the people I worked with weren't all Saudi's - but that isn't the culture of the GCC - I was the only westerner in my office - my coworkers were a reasonably close split of filipinos, pakastanis, sudanese, and indians - with a few other nationalities thrown in for flavor - there were Saudis but they were (generally) hired for specific role and worked out of the office. In the GCC everyone experience is multicultural - that is the culture. Most of my friends were European - but that was more economic and interest driven. I was not looking to do good works - that wasn't my goal - so my exposure was different - my point as the opportunities were and are there.
Now I am older and have a higher ranking position, wife, kids, and am older - so I am in a gated community with Syrian, Iraqi (if the flag is to be beleived), Turkish, and Japanese, and Pakastani neighbors.
No I don't live in a labor camp - which again is part of my point - you don't learn what working poor is until you have been out to a labor camp and see how guys who have spent years of future earnings to live in these environments.
My cultural experience is with my social and economic peers - other ambitious professionals - thats the way I like it. It doesn't have to be that way. I am not suggesting I made all of the same choices - I am suggesting that there are more options - than "NGO" or "stay at home in a job that bores you".
I also think that is in all Americans' personal best interest to encourage any one with the gumption to work abroad to do it. Funds are repatraiated good for the economy. They get a great tax break good for them and thier personal economy. And we get a voter with a broader world view that makes them better citizens. It also provides us with working ambassadors creating ties with people in other countries (you want to talk people total disconnected from country they live - US foreign service officers).
My opinion.
You are preaching to the converted on the economic front. And if I was going abroad, I'd be pretty happy to do it in comfort working for a multinational. I'm just not convinced that your comments, worthy though they are, really deal with Fizz's aspirations ("I want to go to Africa because it is good for the economy" isn't an accurate precis of his comments, so far as I can tell).
Anyway, best of luck and I hope you hit your sales target for the year. ;-)
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5. Oh and Aubrey beer should never ever NEVER be at room temperature. The colder the better!And...they put milk in tea instead of ice and sugar.
And...they call french fries "chips" and potato chips "crisps." It's like they have their own language or something. ;)
Yeah, it's called English (after us, funnily enough) and only we spell it right.
Interesting fact: "American" English is actually much closer to the English spoken at the time of the 17th and 18th centuries than modern "English" English, which would appear to contain a load of Victorian amendments. So, arguably, yours is the more authentic language.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also the levele of resistance from folks that - to all appearances haven't worked overseas - or even seriously entertained the option.
Well, I guess if some expertise is required as to the choices involved, maybe I should be irritated at all the responses regarding staying in law school and practicing law from people who have done neither.
As Aubrey said, and as I'm sure Fizz can correct if I am mistating, the crux of the choice seems to be between the staid standard job in law or a more fulfilling dabble in public service. That such public service is to occur in a foreign country is more incidental to the choice. It's not as if the original question was "should I work in the U.S., or do basically the same job as an expatriot abroad," in which case you would undoubtably have expertise which the rest of us lack. Similarly, if the query were "should I litigate or practice transactional law," I could probably provide a more informed analysis of the choices than most on the boards. Thus, while your expertise is most certainly welcome, it is not required to provide analysis of the choice presented.
Magdelena (hope I spelled that right) - American law and British law are at the foundation of International law and the legal system of many countries, particularly those that were colonies in the past. Even in those countries where the legal system is based on a different tradition, there is frequently a demand for those trained in American law because so many transactions are with American entities. The ability to practice law across jurisdictional boundries has more to do with the type of law that you practice than the law itself. Transactional attorneys are likely to be able to practice in any country. Litigators have a much harder time because much of their skill is in the presentation of their case to the court and an understanding of the jurisidiction's rules. We have American trained attorneys that practice in the Asian offices of my firm, and I've worked on transactions that were cross border in Mexico and South America. That's not to say there aren't barriers to practicing law as an ex-pat, but their not quite as absolute as your posts seem to suggest.