I have a friend who asked me to post a question for him.
He plays WOW (World of Warcraft), I play D&D. Many of our conversations boil down to comparing rules, stats, game mechanics, in-game physics, and general play of our respective games.
He is wondering "what we (D&D players) find appealing about the game as compared to WOW?"
I told him that I like RPGs regardless. Console, pen&paper or otherwise, I've played them all. But what I really like about D&D is how "real" you can make it feel. (Which obviously depends greatly upon the DM and the players working together to make it a good game.)
I also like the utter limitless customization of the game. In console games, there is a set ammount of items, clothes, weapons, armor, skills, abilities, spells, etc that you can "create" your character with.
In D&D, the limit is your imagination; thus allowing you to truely "create" a character. And not only that, you become this character through your role-playing. (The latter, though possible in some console games, is becoming rare nowadays.)
Thoughts?
-Kurocyn
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I play both, and they are fairly different experiences. With WoW, the "DM" is the computer. It sets you quests, you carry them out (normally killing things in the process), you get xp and treasure, and gradually get more powerful. The entire game is predicated around combat, with minimal roleplaying. It is social to the extent that you can get online with mates and clobber an instance, but that isn't really roleplaying, just discussing tactics. Most of the people I know who play WoW are (in my age group, which is 35-40) roleplayers or lapsed roleplayers, so it is a substitute for that. It is a computer game, of course, so its big advantage over tabletop games is it is very visual and realtime. And, ofcourse, you don't have to spend ages in preparation time, but can just sit down, switch on your computer and start playing (though you can spend hours doing that, of course).
D&D, on the other hand, is different. It is slower, but much more flexible. I am the DM, so I control the game. I choose the plots, and I can react to what the players want (including me). It is much more nuanced, and roleplaying is much easier. It is much more sociable (generally, your players are sitting there looking at you, rather that down the end of a broadband cable). But, of course, it doesn't give you the "hit" of immediacy which WoW does (it is highly addictive - I know of acquaintances who have lost jobs due to WoW addiction) and it is harder "work" - you have to think, apply imagination, strategic thinking, and so on.
The dissimilarities are more accute than the similarities, in my view. They are different, and I don't think one is better than the other.
Personally, I think they are different to the point of incomparable...
Even though a lot of people like both. I've played WoW for a short while, but never really liked it. It's to pre-set. I don't really like games with limited options...
D&D is a game of imagination, where your mind is the limit. Even the same game is a different experience for each of the players. Also, I like the roleplaying part over the rollplaying part. Killing monsters gets old real quick, unless you have a reason for killing them.
(In my book, obtaining the +3 Greatsword is not a reason for killing them, nor is Completing pointless and irrelevant quest 7.3 for bonus XP)
The power of D&D is in its story and its world; both of which are shaped by the players, not the computer.
The power of WoW is in its fast-paced gameplay, heavy combat and powerful graphics.
But in the end, D&D shall always be bigger, for it has no limit.
While I don't play WOW (because of the monthly fee) I do play Guild Wars. I started playing because I was looking for a RPG to play online since I wasn't playing D&D. I needed my fix I guess you could say. Since I found a group to play with I haven't played much (which is ok since Guild Wars has no montly fee).
MMORPG are mostly about the combat and levelling up and some player killing (Just watch the South Park where they played WOW). D&D I found to be more enjoyable since we could converse and worked together to solve different problems. I enjoyed D&D more than a MMORPG, but for a quick fix, nothing works better then getting on the computert and killing some creatures.
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I agree with all the responses so far. I would just like to add that I feel that it is a far more social experience. I like to get out of my basement and interact with real people -- even if the medium is fatasy based. This is simply something to be said for getting together with your friends, ordering pizza and Mountain Dew, talking about your previous week in the real world while preparing to play a game.
Besides, I am usually on the computer around 50 hours a week at work. Why would I want to go home to be on the computer?
Moff's answer is closest to mine. D&D is a game of people getting together and telling a story together, with some dice and rules to keep things from falling into a rut.
WoW is a game where you solve cool quests and immerse yourself in a world that a whole design team worked hard on-- but your impact is limited to what they imagined/made possible. It is cool-- but while you can invent within the corners of the game, the core game is an impartially refereed experience.
If your character vanished from WoW, the world as a whole would be largely unchanged. If one player at a table stops showing up, the texture of the game changes dramatically.
Can a 1st level character in WoW use a combination of illusions similar to ghost sound and minor image to make the recently felled hobgoblin appear to rise as a ghost to attack its comrades, forcing them to run away in fear? No? You can only do straight damage and maybe stun someone for three seconds?
Okay, can you choose from hundreds and hundreds of possible stories for your characters in vastly different worlds and settings every time you play? No? All you get is Horde and Alliance, and after 1.5 times of playing a character for very long on either side, you've seen most of what there is to see that's unique to a particular faction? Every other character after that has to track through the same quests and adventures?
Are the adventures crafted with numerous possible ways to advance, and react to your character's actions and story? No? They're all preset with one very specific way to complete them, which always involves killing someone?
Well, is there at least the joy of having hundreds and hundreds of different mechanical builds to experiment with, even for just one class? No? Every class has all of its abilities more or less predetermined with no choice whatsoever?
And Blizzard has gone on crack for placing insane and pointless requirements in their game which make it impossible for casual gamers to ever really compete with the more dedicated fans because they simply don't have the time to complete all of the game designer's half-baked ideas of what a good price for an epic mount is?
And you have to contend with several hundred immature prepubescents whose only joy is a near-orgasmic thrill when they see their character deliver his Super Uber Awesome Death Move for the 3,567th time?
If you come to a fence that the "DM" didn't expect you to cross, can you jump over it and go off into the great wild world? No?
Can you say anything you want to say in dialogue with an important NPC? No? There is hardly any dialogue with NPCs at all?
I think you see why D&D reigns supreme, as opposed to the MMO's "Yeah, another monster...."
Now, I will say that I've played WoW extensively and I enjoyed a lot of my time on it. Real time gaming and no preparation time and stunning graphics have something to say for them. The ability to hold mass PvP combats with the computer running everything seemlessly (more or less) also has some appel.
But the two can never compare in my mind.
However, I am looking forward to the release of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes later this week. From what I've read, it's a massive step towards an immersive RPG experience in an MMO, capturing so much more of the D&D "feel" than WoW ever could, from all reports. Given that the only D&D I can get at the moment is play-by-post (Hold on guys, I'm coming, just give me a few more days to get my schoolwork taken care of!), it should also provide a nice "fix," and the game has an enjoyment factor of its own.
But it will never replace D&D.
The general sway of these replies isn't surprising considering where we are :) but to add to the growing consensus:
I was mildly addicted the WOW about a year ago, then I grew frustrated with the limited options (Once a warrior, always a warrior, fixed alliances and all that...) so I moved on to an RP server where I found some people who were into character at least. Still, not enough freedom.
Wasn't long before I realized what I was looking for was the imagination and freedom involved in my Junior High School pastime: D&D. I went down to the complete strategist and plunked down my bucks for the DMG & PHB and have scarcely looked back to WOW.
Finding a live group has proved challenging with my schedule and such, but Play-by-post has filled in adequately.
Another point that was overlooked...
In D&D, the story revolves around the PCs, while in every online game, your character is just a drop in the ocean.
Also in D&D you can, to some extent, influence what kind of game you will be playing. I'm sure that if you tell the DM that it would be really neat to participate in gladitorial games with your characters in the near future, he will mostly accomodate you and prepare something to your liking. While in the online games, the quests are there wether you like them or not.
The thing I totally dislike about online games, is that no matter how many hours you put into it, you'll NEVER be the best... As there's always some freak out there that doesn't work for a living and plays twenty times more then you (so gets really powerful). You'll never get the good stuff if you just play casually (like a normal human being).
The story in D&D developes as the characters move along; Forever changing/evolving... To the point that even the DM isn't quite sure where the adventures will take the party next.
Ultradan
He is wondering "what we (D&D players) find appealing about the game as compared to WOW?"
I tried WOW once for about an hour. I honestly didn't see what was so interesting.
Character customization? HA!
Me: I'll try a troll rogue, How do I get his stats?
Buddy: Oh, they are already predetermined when you picked his race, so are his allegances and for the most part his life objectives.
How about stimulating gameplay
Me: Okay I figured out how to equip a dagger and attack, where
do I go now?
Buddy: head out into that desert and start killing the scorpions.
Battle consists of: Click-wait-click-wait-click watch it die.
40 minutes later I had killed a bunch of scorpions through a rather boring experiance.
Me: I just leveled up how do I determin whats new?
Buddy: you can go into town and find a trainer and they will teach you new abilities.
Me: alright there is a lot of different rogue abilities. Any suggestions?
Buddy: try eviscerate
Me: Kay, now I'm big bad level 2? Whats next?
Buddy: Now go out in the westernmost part of the desert and start killing the slightly off colored scorpions, they're stronger.
With my new ability I was able to end combats by clicking a different button on the quickbar. WOW indeed.
I saw high level play too. That was lack luster. The friend that was playing it had a 30th something mage and a 30th something warlock. A HUGE list of spells in the quickbar and he used maybe
five of them in a typical combat because in most situations they were the only useful ones. Getting in a party seemed to be a waste of time because the temporary alliances were tenuous at best. It was even expected for arty members to run off alone away from the group because most characters needed some plant to harvest or ore to mine. That and it was always hard to coordinate because other players often failed to grasp/didn't bother to follow or even dissagree with a suggested plan of attack.
Oh! I know! Warcraft had a visual aid!
Yep that's right combat is fast and animated!
Amazing combat scenes including.
Combatans NOT gaining wounds or visible injuries.
NON-inteactive environments!
Arrows not event sticking in their target!
The same eight combat animations over and over and over again!
Psychotically oversized characters and weapons that look about as gritty and hardened as a tom and jerry cartoon!
I agree that there is no comparing D&D and WOW. The only thing they have in common is entertainment value and I don't see how warcraft could possibly add up. By the way I would guess that there are a couple WOW fans that are going to read this and I'd like to point out that this probably is far more acrid than I originally intended. But I still stand by my opinions as a D&D player who found WOW severely lacking in the fun department.
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How about -- because it is cheaper. I would never be able to stomach the thought of having another monthly bill simply for a game. After the first three books, there really isn't any further necessary investment for D&D. If I were doing WoW, I would feel like I HAD to play every chance I got just to get my money's worth. I have heard of WoW ruining marriages because of this. (Of course, I don't blame the game -- I blame the person playing the game.)
In addition, I also see it as an investment. If I wanted to sell my books, I would be able to get something from them through Amazon, ebay, or any number of other venues. Try and get any part of your monthly fee back from WoW.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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How about -- because it is cheaper. I would never be able to stomach the thought of having another monthly bill simply for a game.
In addition, I also see it as an investment. If I wanted to sell my books, I would be able to get something from them through Amazon, ebay, or any number of other venues. Try and get any part of your monthly fee back from WoW.
I love D&D and WoW both. If I could call up my gaming buddies and have them magically appear at my house to play D&D at the drop of a hat, anytime I wanted, I would not need WoW and would not play it. This is not the case, therefore I play WoW also. (I also play FFXII for similar reasons... or when my wife is playing WoW and I can't use the computer.)
In response to Moff's comments:
I've spent around $3000 on D&D stuff. I've spent $100 on the software (I have the expansion) and I'm up to $90 in monthly fees so far (6 months playing). It'll take me a ridiculous amount of time to rack up a WoW bill that even comes close to my D&D expenses and, of course, I will continue to spend more on D&D as well (just bought PHB2 a couple weeks ago).
As for the investment, did you know that a WoW account with a max-level character can sell for $500+ on eBay? If you've got really good gear on him and maybe a few other max-level characters on your account, it can go for close to $1000. Just saying. People will pay this kind of money for these things. *I* won't... but someone will.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Can a 1st level character in WoW use a combination of illusions similar to ghost sound and minor image to make the recently felled hobgoblin appear to rise as a ghost to attack its comrades, forcing them to run away in fear? No? You can only do straight damage and maybe stun someone for three seconds?
You can't do that in D&D either!
(Completely kidding)
Saern hit the nail on the head for me, particularly with respect to the interactivity of the environment. If there is a wall of ice in a video game, you have to go find the pre-programmed way to get through it. If there is a wall of ice blocking you way in D&D, you can tunnel under it, create a big fire, explore alternate routes, give up on the adventure, buy some flying potions, use mountain climbing equipment to go over it, buy a catapult and launch yourself over it, summon a thoqqa to burn a hole through it. The only limitations are the player and DM's creativity and ability to translate those intentions into game mechanics.
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Try and get any part of your monthly fee back from WoW.
Some people actually sell their accounts with Level-capped characters on E-Bay although it is against the user license for the game. I play WoW myself but I'd still rather get together with my friends around the table. I've not participated in important guild events because they were happening on DnD game night. However I also have several friends I've made through a previous MMO that I'll stick with no matter what game we go to. Like others have said, the grind of leveling up can be repetitive. That's where finding people in game who you can have a good time with is important. DnD and WoW are different enough experiences that they can't really be compared to each other IMO.
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I've spent around $3000 on D&D stuff. I've spent $100 on the software (I have the expansion) and I'm up to $90 in monthly fees so far (6 months playing). It'll take me a ridiculous amount of time to rack up a WoW bill that even comes close to my D&D expenses and, of course, I will continue to spend more on D&D as well (just bought PHB2 a couple weeks ago).
Oh, I have spent my fair share of money on books and stuff, but my point is that it is a choice rather than a bill. It is little different to me than a DVD -- something that I will always have that I can use when and where I want to.
As for the investment, did you know that a WoW account with a max-level character can sell for $500+ on eBay? If you've got really good gear on him and maybe a few other max-level characters on your account, it can go for close to $1000. Just saying. People will pay this kind of money for these things. *I* won't... but someone will.
I have heard about this and I am always amazed at what people will spend real, hard-earned money on. A french fry in the shape of the Madonna can make you thousands. I don't understand why people feel that they need the most pimped out character to have fun, when really the fun is in creating the most pimped out character. How is it fun to be at the end?
I understand what you are saying, I guess I just feel that D&D is a bit more tangible. (Of course after writing it, it feels like an oxymoron -- Tangible Fantasy?)
Wow...a loaded question, to be sure, but it should be "D&D vs MMOs," as this question came up well before WoW *cough* EQ *cough*.
I love computers. I love them so much, I will spend 40+ hours at work on them, come home and spend another 15-20 a week on them. I love them for their possibilities of what we can make them do, and what they open our minds to the possibilities of what we can make ourselves do, and what potential we have within ourselves.
All the racks of supercomputers and high-end multiprocesser servers out there can't hold a candle to when my players tell me, their DM, that they have a plan, and this is how they plan to implement it, and I say "Okay. Make your rolls." Not a "sorry that choice isn't available", not a "question not understood," not a "you can't turn right here, only left." (Unless you're a railroading kind of DM and that's for another topic.)
This is not to say I don't like computer games, or the faux-RPGs out there. I do. The stacks of game discs that I have attest to that. There are times I just want something meatier than "point-click-kill, *ding*, minimal set of choices, scripted dialogue, wash-rinse-repeat." And, of course, there are times where I'm not in a sociable mood, or I'm sick, or I don't have a group (not a problem lately) and much prefer a (relatively) simple, straightforward round or ten of entertainment.
As far as prep time goes, some Devs out there are doing the prep work for you in a computer game. They've set up the scenery, the opponents, their behavior, their loot...Prep work is still being done. Just not by you. ;)
For me, if I had a choice of spending five hours playing a computer game or five hours playing an RPG game (whether it's D&D, GURPS, Palladium, Shadowrun, whatevah), guess which one would win?
Reading some of your answers...some of you really have issues with WoW!
Does WoW offer has many options has D&D? No of course not and it never intended too.
Does WoW revolve around your character? No and it shouldn't. Try to set up a game for 10000 players and see if you can focus on 3-4 specific players.
Does WoW offer you less abilities and spells? Well an argument could be done about this one...each character has at least 20 different abilities with 5-6 favorites...hum that reminds me of the sorcerer, raging power attacking barbarian, warmage or warlock.
Does WoW offer less RP or character developpement? Well I'm on a RP server with a medium RP guild and I can say that I'm not dissapointed...don't try to RP with the guard...RP with people!
In my gaming group we are 6 (counting myself) and 5 of us play WoW...and we never missed a game for a planned run in WoW...it's all about priorities.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Huh. I had always assumed there was a consensus among all persons that WoW is like smoking - a socially awkward addiction generally shunned by even those that partake. I've never head anyone express anything positive about the experience, mostly just it's-not-as-bad-as-you-might-think-to-play-a-game-20-to-30-hours-per-week.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Huh. I had always assumed there was a consensus among all persons that WoW is like smoking - a socially awkward addiction generally shunned by even those that partake. I've never head anyone express anything positive about the experience, mostly just it's-not-as-bad-as-you-might-think-to-play-a-game-20-to-30-hours-per-week.
FWIW, I'm very fond of the game myself, especially after the expansion added tons of new content. It's just complex enough to be interesting, the world is pretty huge with lots of different things to see, and the classes and races seem to be pretty well balanced. I've gotten one character to level 60 and I'm working on a new character from one of the races the expansion added currently (not really interested in getting my level 60 to level 70 yet).
The game is GORGEOUS and, if you can find a group of people to play with, its really a very enjoyable way to spend an evening. Not *AS* enjoyable as sitting around the gaming table, but close.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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FWIW, I'm very fond of the game myself, especially after the expansion added tons of new content. It's just complex enough to be interesting, the world is pretty huge with lots of different things to see, and the classes and races seem to be pretty well balanced. I've gotten one character to level 60 and I'm working on a new character from one of the races the expansion added currently (not really interested in getting my level 60 to level 70 yet).The game is GORGEOUS and, if you can find a group of people to play with, its really a very enjoyable way to spend an evening. Not *AS* enjoyable as sitting around the gaming table, but close.
Yeah, and smoking gives you a real cool buzz for 1-5 minutes (when you first start) or can take the edge off your withdrawal (when you've been smoking for a while). And you've still got to take a break to smoke every hour or so. Plus, smoking makes you cool/rebellious. There's a silver lining to every addictive substance (or activity as the case may be)!
I guess WoW is just not my thing at all. I find the play experience to be dull beyond measure, I hate other humans (particularly online), and (most frustrating) there's no pause button. My friends who do play say it's a 20-30 hour a week habit. As far as I can see, there's as much casual WoW usage as there is casual smoking.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I guess WoW is just not my thing at all. I find the play experience to be dull beyond measure, I hate other humans (particularly online), and (most frustrating) there's no pause button. My friends who do play say it's a 20-30 hour a week habit. As far as I can see, there's as much casual WoW usage as there is casual smoking.
It's possible that it isn't your thing. 20 hours a week sounds about right for me but, before I got WoW, I would spend those same 20 hours playing Final Fantasy or Doom 3 so I don't really see it any different or more addictive than other video games.
I hate other humans online, too, and I don't deal with the vast majority of them. I'm part of a guild that consists of people I know personally and their personal friends and deal almost exclusively with them and them alone. Our guild is small by most standards (about 60 people) but we all know each other (either directly or indirectly) and its a lot of fun. We screen for stupidity and if you're in the guild, you've obviously passed. It's a lot of fun, but finding the right group is crucial to enjoying the game. After all, you can only go solo so long before groups become necessary.
WoW and D&D each have their own advantages and drawbacks. WoW's advantages to the player are that combat is always fun and/or rewarding - if not, at least it's worth doing as many repetetive no-fun combats as it takes for the larger reward of levelling up. Thus, people play so often either because it's continually fun (while an all-combat D&D game would be boring), or else, because it's NOT fun past a certain point and people play so much for the greater reward of levelling up.
D&D's advantage is that it's more free-form, the roleplaying game version of reading a book (whereas WoW is perhaps the roleplaying equivalent of watching a movie). It's really quite a different game, relying on mental dexterity instead of physical reflexes.
D&D's drawback is that it relies heavily on a talented DM to keep things interesting, as well as on the physical presence of a group of other players. A game can end if one or two players suddenly move away, start a family or suddenly have to work on your game day - WoW can be played solo and it's easy to find ad-hoc groups, and it takes less effort to commit to a regular group. It's also less fast-paced and engaging than a videogame, unless either you're new enough to the game that it hasn't become repetitive, or your DM is very talented and has either the talent or the products to keep it interesting.
I don't understand why people feel that they need the most pimped out character to have fun, when really the fun is in creating the most pimped out character. How is it fun to be at the end?
Most WoW players I've encountered in game (I got a character to level 58 or 59 out of 60, and couldn't muster the enthusiasm to push on to that final bit, how sad is that?) feel that you must be a level 60 with all epic gear before you can even begin to be someone worth notice in the game. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from most people. That really turns me off.
Not to mention the bore fest of running the same dungeon several dozen times for each piece of gear you just HAVE to have to get maximum points in PvP so you can get even better gear to go into the next dungeon a dozen times to get the gear you need to win enough in PvP to get the... I think you understand.
Oh, and I'm the buddy Sexi mentioned (no need to conceal it).
if you can find a group of people to play with,
Ding ding ding! We have a winner! You just hit my problem on the head. I have never, ever, ever found a group of people I could actually stand in WoW. I hear people talking about their RP groups and buddies, and I have no freaking clue where to go to get into those "circles." I had one real-world friend who got me into the thing, but our character never seemed to be able to stay at equivalent levels so we rarely play together or see each other. So, for me, the experience was long, lonely forays into the wilderness, only to come back to the city to sell crap and deal with morons.
If I could have found a group to stick around with, things wouldn't have been so bad, I'm sure. But, it's too late, as I've given up WoW in favor of the aforementioned Vanguard (where you are expected to get a horse by level 10 for a reasonable amount of money!).
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Interesting exchanges. Obviously, if WoW is not your thing, then fair enough. There is certainly a repetitive element to it, and at the low levels there is lots of that (balanced by the rapidity at which you level in the early stages). The game is actually quite nuanced above the early levels too in terms of what character abilities are apporpiate to wich situations. Character can diversify quite significantly in abilities, even in the same character class, above lvl 10 where talents (aka "feats") start to become available to customise your character (and it makes a big difference, especially at higher levels).
Part of the issue I have is that the game system is a sort of black box unless you want to spend time surfing the various WoW messageboards. So it is difficult to know if you are really making optimal choices for your character when selecting talents.
Also, unless you are in a good guild (which effectively means with people you know, at least partly) then it can be a pretty dispiriting experience. You can't do the top instances with the best treasure, so your character is sub-standard, and the company can be execrable sometimes (absolutely infantile).
But, basically, WoW is not D&D. If you want it to be the same, it isn't and so will disappoint. There is actually some quite interesting world-building going on (though it doesn't, unfortunately, intrude much into the actual game experience) as a browse on Wikipedia will demonstrate. But the game is about killing things, taking their stuff and getting more powerful. It is power-gamer heaven.
I'll weigh in too just for the heck of it.
Though I have never played WOW I was a HUGE MMORPG addict before we moved to Qatar and spent a sizeable chunk of my last 5 years in Canada playing EQ (6 hours a day after work and as much as 20 on the weekends)! Luckily for me the wife was just as big an addict and we both played together (2 accounts on different computers in the house) or I surely would have been divorced by now lol.
It has been said but it bears repeating: the 2 are different beasts (the only thing they have in common is the RPG in the title). They each have different things going for them (like the no limits but your imagination for table top vs the immediacy and sheer scale or MMORPGs) but neither is "better" in my opinion. It totally depends what you are in the mood for. And most importantly they are NOT mutually exclusive (except that you obviously can't do both at the same time). I enjoyed and still do (though I have no time play MMORPGs in Qatar) BOTH.
Be safe all.
Don't play WoW, but have to chime in as I do play DDO. Even between the PnP version of D&D and the computer version there is a world of difference. I have to imagine that WoW closely follows these differences.
Both online games and PnP games has their adventages:
Instant playability anytime? - Online
Realtime action? - Online
Lower cost? - Online
Infinte possibilites for scenarios? - PnP
Relaxed social atmosphere? - PnP
Rewards for creative "outside the box" thinking? - PnP
I have to say that DDO has a much better system of social interaction between players than what I have heard about WoW. However, BSing with your buddies about lastnights baseball game as you crack open the first Mountain Dew of the gaming night will always hold the top spot in my heart.
Someone above hit the heart of what to me is the appeal of the online games - Instant access. At a moments notice I can go play a version of D&D, wow.
To sum up, my Friday campaign is richer in detail and depth of story. However I only get to play that campaign on Fridays... I just finished an adventure in DDO that only took an hour to play.
just my two coppers,
-Roth
It is always interesting to hear arguements on the D&D vs WoW.
Hi, my name is Valenare, I am a WoW addict. There I said it.
Hi, my name is Valenare, I am a D&D addict. True, I am addicted to both.
I was once of the philosophy that I would never pay a monthly fee for a video game. However, I was a very big fan of Blizzard Entertainment. I own and have played all the games up to World of Warcraft. I refused to purchase the game for 4 months after its release. I finally crumbled as I read the reviews that were ALL over the internet. Since I purchased the game nearly 2 years ago, I have purchased one other video game - the expansion that was released just over a week ago. Why,you ask, is this significant? I tended to purchase 3 or 4 video games a year. At the cost of $50 approximately each, that is $150-200 per year in video game purchases. Over the last two years I have played, that is $300-400 in video games that I have not purchased. If you look at this, then the fact that $180 per year (that is if you pay on a monthly basis) in fees to Blizzard is right on par to my yearly spending on video games. When I look at it that way, I have no issue with paying the monthly subscription fee.
Now, I am also an avid D&D player/collector. What does this mean to you and I? Well, it means that I am spending a minimum of $30/month in D&D books. That doesn't include the money I spend in miniatures and other game aids (I have a dice fetish). With Wizard's drive to release a new book each and every month, as a collector, I am obligated to purchase said book. Truely speaking my D&D addiction way out costs my WoW addiction.
So, environment of the two games. There is social interaction in both games. One you sit across the table from someone the other you sit in front of a monitor. D&D is without question more personal than WoW, but there are chat programs out there that you can use to communicate with each other. You have the opportunity to speak to people around the world through WoW. D&D doesn't offer that freedom, for the most part. However, you want to call up one of your D&D buddies and go get a burger, it is much easier than getting together with your buddy from Australia to go have a burger. Both games have social interaction, one is personal and one is electronic. I am sure most of us would prefer the personal interaction, and that is why we play D&D.
I personally am the guildmaster of a high end raiding guild. Those of you who play WoW know what that means (and I am sitting at level 69 on my raiding priest). For you others, that means that I dedicate myself to 5 hours a night 4 days a week. During this time, I spend with a very close-nit group of 25-40 people tackling new content in the game (which they historically add to on a bi-monthly basis). We have been playing as a group for over a year now and we compliment each other in the game. I have been very selective about who is allowed and who isn't allowed into the guild. For the most part, it is adults with families so we have been very conscience of play times and we have worked out a "set" schedule. It is always the small accomplishments we celebrate. Is it any different celebrating the kill of the end boss in an "instance" or if you defeat the major villian at the end of an adventure? Both give you satisfaction.
As far as D&D goes, I have played for 25+ years, do I forsee giving that up any time soon? Heck no. My wife and I both play, we play one day a week. We have a great bunch of people we play with, and wouldn't give it up for the world. There is nothing in WoW that would pull me from the D&D group, but I feel it is good to have both in my life. They both focus on different things, take up different parts of my life. When I am not playing WoW, I am either reading a book (usually D&D based or rulebook). So between the two, my nights are taken up. After all, I do have a 9-5, 40 hour a week job that I must work to support my two addictions.
Thank you all for listening (reading) my ramblings. It is almost as if I have had this arguement a time or two. Ok, so it is my conversion speil. It is my goal to have the world happily playing both D&D and World of Warcraft so that I am not alone. (BTW, my 12 year old daughter is now playing both.)
(and I am sitting at level 69 on my raiding priest).
Level 69 this soon after the expansion's release date is crazy crazy crazy.
If I could play D&D as often as I can play WoW, I would never play WoW.
Since I can't play all the time...I look for poor substitutes like MMOs and re-read my Dungeon back issues when I get tired of the grind.
Recently we lost one of our best players to WOW- he said that he needed a break from D and D but he really just wanted to play WOW... and so he did... for over 6 solid months ... until i organsed an intervention to help him back nto the blinding light of RL. ( Real Life )
An old friend of his alterted me to his plight- as he lives in another country than me ( We play over Skype )
heres what went down....
My self and another concerned friend have been closely watching SXXXXXs decent into full WOW based individuation over and including the last FULL YEAR.
I wrote this letter to the concerned friend
Hey bro- have you seen the funny south park episode about WOW.
Hows SXXXXX ? Give me the news about his life.
Is he still WOWowned?
The concerned friend said-
More than ever, I'm afraid. I managed to drag him out of his house with the help of some friends to take him to the yr12 afterparty. But he was back to business doing 40 man instances ( Thats sort of like a quest ) the next day.
I reply-
Thats so FXXXXXed I may actually have to kill him.
What about Fighting and yelling and running and jumping and reading and singing and swimming and crying and leaping and listening to Manowar or Abonos and writing poetry to that special girl and CREATING something rad to share with others!!!!! What about the Stars and the woods and Animals and ghosts and smells and tastes!!!!
What about LIFE! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Ok mate - keep me posted.
The friend
I know, thats what pXXXXs me off the most. He devotes so much of his time and effort to this game- and has absolutely nothing to show for it besides scattered memories and digital acheivements.
Its all meaningless, in the end. His life has stagnated. He dropped out of school- and then out of college. His mum won't kick his ass into line because she is afraid he will run away from home. His stepdad won't kick his ass because he has worked hard to gain the approval of SXXXX and doesnt want to make trouble between him and his mother.
Its up to his friends to put him in line. And to be frank, he isnt worth my time right now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>.
Heres the letter I wrote ...
Well guys I took an oath never to desert a comrade in need danger or trouble and so I composed this out of concern - and the fact that I was in DRUGS filled matrix once and some one threw ME a rope.
If you do actually care about this person - like I do- I would like you to look over this and write your name under WE THE COMPANIONS OF OLD as well as a short note as to why you care and why you would like him to return to the land of RL.
PATHWALKER.
A walker of the path has stumbled.
He has stumbled so far that he has fallen from the path entirely. He has fallen from the path and off the bank. Down the bank and into the mire. Wallowing through the mire into the morass and sinking to the bottom of the morass he found himself bound and encapsulated deep within the wallowing hallows of the witch pit.
The walker can no longer see the beacon that shines from the tower nor smell the sacred incense of the inner sanctum of D and D ...
He is living in a pixilated world lost to the real joys of life. Running, jumping, singing leaping, feeling LIFE. This letter represents a call to old comrades to help save a lost companion.
Does this represent a chance? Nay, it represents a hope.
A hope that he will take the step out of the Matrix and back into the harsh burning (Yet healing ) sunlight of RL.
We the Companions of Old
The WEZ. - SXXXX I composed this because you are depriving good doods out there a good friend , and a good world out there a good person. You are also depriving your self of a life and Manowar would not approve.
Andrew Counts- Play D and D man. Cloven Hoof will never be defeated by a server crash.
Rein - You were cool and brave playing when D and D with us. Please be cool and brave in RL.
Do hereby throw a rope into the mire for which you may grasp.
Doing this we know that we did not sit idly by while a comrade dashed the ship of his hopes and dreams upon the rocky shores of Azoroths cruel coast.
We tried to help a friend as we would like to be helped if we went down.
If he does not grasp the rope we at least know that we tried and cannot be faulted as warriors of the path who will not desert a comrade in need danger or trouble. All of which we believe the walker is in.
If the walker wishes to acknowledge said help is needed or wanted he but needs to write to us and reach out his hand and a full return to life program will be issued forthwith.
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Well the long and the short of it is HE BACK !!!!
He took the disc and smashed it with a hammer and now hes back BABY !!!
As in
"I really didn’t listen to anyone’s opinions, views or judgments at the end of days when I chose to opt for the simpler, static and numbed way of life instead of enrich myself in the productive, social and creative world of D&D and all of you.
I read all of your letters to me and I know I was ignorant to have not really got what you were trying to say. I read them a few times over to truly understand and comprehend them. I guess to really be rid of an evil you have to fall so bad that there is barely a crumbling handhold left to pull yourself back up with… Which is what pretty much happened to me, I heeded no warning, and the malice, greed and injustice of the vile World of Gaycraft owned every inch of me for six entire months straight.
As for news I’m back on a decent track, going to the gym at least three times a week to get lean and sport the cliché fit Aussie image, cleaning up my environment, getting involved with real people and not just those on the screen . This coming march I’m going to be starting a Certificate 3 in Sound Engineering at this place in Queensland called the ASM Multimedia College, as well as hopefully score a minor job in a movie production company up there for some work experience…
So it CAN be done...
Take the first step ... pick up the hammer....
And go drowlike , out side into life !!!!
It is true... I have nothing to do outside work and WoW, except my Friday night D&D game - I am just a player at the moment. So I don't have any grand adventures to plan. I am sure when the DM ball bounces in my court, I will have less time to concentrate on my WoW leveling. I still will have 3 other 60's to advance to 70 once I finish with my priest. I wish I could say I needed more D&D time, but I have nothing pressing down on me.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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While I don't play WOW, a few of my friends do. But I'll have to emphatically second that if you like D&D and want a good MMORPG play DDO.
My Roommates and fellow gamers play this during the week (as I DM I don't have the time to play it myself). I find myself watching the game in sheer enjoyment because I recognize all the monsters they fight, the spells that are cast, the weapons they choose for what monster. It's about the closest to 3.5 rules you could get in a computer game.
If you like Eberron it's even better as that's where it's set! You can interact with others in the world fairly easily. Having voice capability makes it extremely entertaining... And I'm just Watching them play!
What I think Wizards' marketing division should be most concerned with is that WoW is much easier to play than D&D. Pay once to buy the game and then a monthly fee after that. No complicated rules to learn, no need to join an existing group.
D&D's big killer is that you can't play it unless you're able and willing to meet up with about four other people, including one experienced player willing to be the DM. Once you're in there's a somewhat steep learning curve of rules.
WoW needs you to meet up with other players too, but they're a lot easier to find when you have an entire realm of people already connected and looking to join a group with you. I think that's a big thing. In WoW, everyone who wants to play is already connected to each other via the internet. D&D doesn't have anything as efficient as that - you lose potential players who are intimidated by the rules, you lose potential players who don't know how to get into a game, you lose potential players who can't find an experienced DM and decide that a videogame RPG would be much more convenient.
Okay, let me preface this by saying, obviously if you are playing D&D or are looking for a group to play with actively, you don't fall into this category, but I think part of why WoW and other MMORPGs are a "threat" to D&D is due to the fact that humans are naturally . . . well . . . lazy. We will take an experience that isn't as fulfilling if its a lot easier to obtain.
MMORPGs are not as fun or as rewarding as "real" roleplaying. But they are easier to get into. MMORPGs don't have to provide a better experience, they only have to provide a similar experience that is easier to get into.
And this is from someone that does have WoW, though it only gets me through between game sessions with my real life group of roleplayers.
Creative Director
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I don't wanna scoop myself too much (my editorial in the current Dungeon is about Warcraft, complete with an awesome group screenshot of all of us in the office who play WoW), but I'm pretty much as addicted to D&D as I am to WoW. There's certainly room for both, and while they're both basically games about killing monsters and taking their stuff to buy new clothes, they provide VASTLY different experiences.
The great advantage WoW (and any computer game has, for that matter) is that you're always playing the game, and you can play when you want for how long you want. You can't do this with D&D. Most of the game is waiting for other people at the table to take their turns. And once one or two players are done playing, you can't really go on playing if you want to keep playing.
The great advantage of D&D is that the game's about your character, and the game is MUCH more adaptable and customizable. What takes Blizzard and an army of programmers and employees over the course of months (generating an instance/adventure) can be accomplished by a single DM working over a few weekends. And the product of that DM's work is customized to the players.
The social interactivity element is about the same in both cases, which is either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on who you game with. Both games, to me, are equally fun and rewarding.
As for the issue of cost... well, WoW costs me more, but then I get my D&D books for free. If I had to pay for my D&D books, I'd be spending probably about 300% what I pay to play WoW. It's cheaper to play D&D, perhaps (since all you need is the core books and a subscription to Dungeon, heh heh heh), but it's certainly not cheaper to be a D&D fan.
Basically, the two games scratch different itches, much in the same way that football and chess scratch different itches. You can play football and chess back to back in the same day, but you can't play them well at the same time. This analogy just committed suicide, so I guess I'll be going now.
Nicely put, James. Finally broke down and got WoW myself, since some friends of mine have been playing and offered to run with me. Now of course, to be fair, they should play some DDO with me. :)
Basically, the two games scratch different itches...
That right there is one of the best metaphors that I've ever heard.
Any of you ever heard of a game called Saga of Ryzom?
The makers of that tried to make a beautiful online game with the advantages of WoW, while maintaining the adaptability and 'anything goes' mentality of D&D.
Saga of Ryzom allows near infinite items, since they are created by combining raw materials, and nearly anything can be combined and later infused. Abilities can be built by players by combining different pro's and con's into them.
But the best part: the players can create their own instances, lure a few players inside, and then have the players complete the instance whilst the creator hovers around and plays 'DM', complete with the power to do nearly anything.
I haven't played it beyond the test-zone, (still on a strict 'no pay/month games) but the promise and the test were just awesome. If you want to see best of both worlds, give it a whirl, and see if it's as awesome as it sounds :)
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Good post, Murkmoldiev. While that's not necessarily the typical experience with MMOs, it's common enough that people should be aware of it. I know from personal experience that internet addiction is very easy to fall into.
That somewhat relates to my main issue with MMOs. It's very hard to get anywhere as a casual player. Playing a few hours a week on EQ2, people tend to wonder "How did you only get your main to level 38 over a year and a half? I got to level 70 in 3 months." It's hard to stay relevant unless you do nothing but spend your whole life in the game.
..., but I think part of why WoW and other MMORPGs are a "threat" to D&D ...
I have tought 1/2 a dozen people how to play D&D, who started roleplaying with WOW or Everquest. So I think MMORPG's are not a threat to D&D
MMORPGs are not as fun or as rewarding as "real" roleplaying. But they are easier to get into.
I think that is why people move from MMORPG's to tradtional D&D. The rewards are more satisfieing and the MMORPG's just give them a taste of what they can experience.
With young gamers like Saern and others picking up the Hobbie the game is in no threat.
Then I am Postive person
In D&D you can actually pull out a chair from a table and sit down. You can even take off your underwear and have a bath.
Thanks, Sir Kaikillah! If my fire-breathing scaly avatar could blush, it would, but it can't, so it doesn't. Should I be happy or sad about that?
Thanks, Sir Kaikillah! If my fire-breathing scaly avatar could blush, it would, but it can't, so it doesn't. Should I be happy or sad about that?
Happy blushing is overrated. Fire breathing is far cooler (or hotter).
D&D lets you personalize a character into the shape that best fits his/her concept. In other words no need for every mage to look like the next heayweight champ with that "I will eat your firstborn" glare.
And I know I don't have to play WOW if it bugs me (which I don't) but I post my biased opinions anyhow since the OP seemed to ask for reasons why D&D and WOW might not mix.
THis may need an edit
All the racks of supercomputers and high-end multiprocesser servers out there can't hold a candle to when my players tell me, their DM, that they have a plan, and this is how they plan to implement it, and I say "Okay. Make your rolls." Not a "sorry that choice isn't available", not a "question not understood," not a "you can't turn right here, only left."
Yes.
D&D is about imagination. Online play is a tactical simulation (fun, but there's no comparison).
One of the reasons that I don't do MMORPGs is that, honestly, a lot of the people that I had met through that game were weird even by my standards. Especially the people that roleplay, that I had met. As a thirteen year old trying out Everquest, my eyes were opened to a lot of things that I didn't want to see /shouted over the chatbox. There wasn't even a plot to work with, so I failed to see the point. Check out Somethingawful.com's World of Warcraft features. You've got to admit that there's something really unhealthy about meeting someone in a video game to pretend to have sex. Through the video game.
But, of course, this isn't a caveat relegated purely to MMORPGs. The strength of the internet is that it brings people together for discussion of mutual interests (Paizo.com messageboards, for instance). The horrible thing about the internet is that it brings people together for discussion of mutual interests (pederasts). And when people with a negative or harmful common idea get together, like aforementioned pederasts, racists and various other groups, their interest takes on an air of legitimacy in their minds and in the minds of those out of touch with reality enough to think that some of these folks may just be misunderstood. What's worse, they may take on the aegis of victimization because they are "just different".
I'm not saying everybody playing MMORPGs are like that, but the ones that are turned me off to them completely. In D&D, even if it isn't as frequent as playing a video game, I can filter who I play with. I can get to know people before teaching them the rules. I can have the fun of sitting around with my friends, joking about things and creating a story together, with the certainty that none of them will turn out to be white supremacists.
Great thread guys- For those who read my above post - We found that another long time gamer and good friend of ours who is a total legend of gaming and who helped unplug the above friend , admit that he has sucumbed and is now playing WOW instead of D and D ... its looks like he still has it under control ( FOR NOW ) but just in case my recently unpluged friend wrote him this letter - which I have full permission to put here... Names changed etc...
The funny thing is - that anyone posting here is obviously not so into WOW that they do it to the exclusion of all other things.... BUT maybe the below will help those who are starting to slide....
THE LETTER
Hey Billjoebob,
Thanks for replying to my letter bro, and since you were one of the old school true blokes that looked after my bouts of rebellious teenage emo angst in those early years, I still hold you in very high regard.
I wrote those letters from my heart after having just been savaged by a peril, far greater than that I have ever faced in my existence in this body. I am still trying to redeem myself today, because… I cut off all my communications with ( MRKMOLDIEV) , and all the rad dudes in America, when they were allowing me to participate and utterly rock out hard metal style to their games, and of course with their lives every day.
I was in some respects a burden in their games sometimes, my mic would be delayed so I’d cut ( MURK ) off when he’d be detailing something, or I’d get in a fuss over bullxxxx like treasure (a rare occurrence but it happened), or something I didn’t agree with, rules or whatever else. MURK had to make sure I could hear everyone, and that they could hear me, and to include my insanely munchkin’ centaur in the affairs of seemingly civilized characters that could walk through the streets or across the lands without getting a “… stay away from me you monstrous beast” type look or otherwise.
And the games that he ran, despite all of that, were utterly RAD.
I know how wise and intelligent you are man, and by no means am I trying to insult, offend or overrule those qualities, but I have to state now the reason for me having done such a crap thing.
It was WoW, pure and simple. I know you’ve started playing, and please man, I’m pleading for you to take the chance now to just put it away and chill with those friends in some other medium. There is such a rich world out there, Warcraft doesn’t need to be a part of it in anyway, there is so much creating and adventure to be had that doesn’t rely on crappy pixels and fake, using people who just eventually get the upper hand on you for their own benefit.
I played WoW for six months, for (this is utterly no joke) 14-16 hours a day sometimes, I thought in the beginning this was just a past time, another game. But no, and I understand you may be stronger willed than me, and more mature etc etc, but in all seriousness every type of person falls to the same low when they get into this…
I know that game back the front, I accomplished every reputation to Exalted, began to acquire the best gear in the game for my Warrior through raiding every day (waking up at 7am and playing till around 6pm), with a top server guild whom I communicated to through the use of a mic program called Ventrilo. The whole nine yards man, you name something I’ve done it or know how to do it on that game (apart from the new expansion, luckily I found the path back to the real world before getting into that.
In the end, you will have gone so far off the path of reality that you will no longer know what to do. This isn’t a cliché, this isn’t a “that story is in the news, it’s overrated” case. This sxxx happens, and I really, honestly want you to just know how much crap I got into, I lost my health, lost my social life… Lost everything man.
And again, I’m in no way saying that you are like me, but please, just as I took heed from your warnings and advice back in the day, please take heed in mine. Put the time you throw into WoW into writing, reading, creating, girlfriend, going out for walks, working, partying, driving around, eating, sleeping, looking up at the sun every morning, working out, creating some more, vitamin eating… Hell, anything.
I’m not trying to tell you how to live, I have heaps of xxxx to live through myself, but if I’ve lived through anything, it is this terrible, atrocious wreck of a “game” that you’ve started playing man, reach up and grab the greatsword of reality whilst you still can, and strike down the false pixilated abhorrent crap that is about to lure you in no matter the will save DC involved.
The redeeming,
SXXXr.
Great Taste, Less Filling.
That's really what it boils down to. D&D is a ton of awesomeness but for shorter spurts of time. 6+ hours once a week (or bi-weekly, or a month) of awesomeness versus... Whenever. World of Warcraft you can jump in anytime for as long as you want, and you don't really need other people. But I don't find WoW to be anything extremely spectacular. In fact it's harder for me to get INTO the game because every other Level 16 Mage is the exact same as me. We'll have a few different talents and such, but there's really not that much difference in the end.
And like Searn mentioned, it's harder to get into it when your friends levels are different than yours (as they're able to play more than you do -- and indulge in being able to). In fact it's hard to just say "Ah, he's leaving. I only have three more gargoyles to kill, maybe I should wait for him..." And if you're not part of a guild, and an integral part at that, you're just some random guy running around in a world PACKED with a ton of other chars. When you play D&D, YOUR character and his/her companions are the centerpoint of moving and shaking kingdoms, and essentially the world. Whereas on WoW, you're just Person #5678 to turn in the quest and get 1,250 bonus XP and some Light Leather Gloves.
It's hard to compare the two, they're completely different in the end. Not just in graphics, rules, all the set-in-stone rules (and in D&Ds case, not so much), but because people have completely different experiences. Personally my WoW experience has been lackluster, but I've gotten back into it (because of a friend). Whereas my D&D experiences have been completely mindblowing, fun, and exciting, (although minimal in how much compared to most around here). It all comes down to who you've played with, and how much fun you get out of each. Really just what your flavor is. And there's definately room for both (as D&D happens much less often). And as for the money issue -- It's an issue, yeah, but not really to me (I'm bad with money... As long as I have it, I'm good. In fact I don't ever know how much money I have at any certain time. Only a "gist" of what's in there -- I blame it on never being awake when my banks help line is open (10 hour night shift worker).
It's not D&D vs WoW. It's what your experiences have taught you is the "better", and even then you can do both and have a great time doing both.
One of the reasons that I don't do MMORPGs is that, honestly, a lot of the people that I had met through that game were weird even by my standards. Especially the people that roleplay, that I had met.
Well, anonymity can do that to people, they start to express themselves in peculiar manner...this is one of the more fascinating things about Internet to me (one fun method of entertainment is to go to a search engine and search for pages with keywords "fetish" and anything you can think of...not a work-safe hobby though but broadens one's mind about human nature).
I don't play MMORPGs but I have played some MUDs and indeed they do a different thing than what tabletop games do, sometimes I want to go and kill things and sometimes I want to roleplay (MUDs fill out my hack-n-slash quota so no need for that much in tabletop games).
But still, some people have pointed out the curious thing about human nature is that people can just log in for chatting in online games and or start playing games in chats or things like HabboHotel...