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Is it just me, or do the Exotic Olman weapons seem extremely weak for being Exotic weapons? As they're currently written, there's no reason, mechanically, for a player to choose to expend a feat to use any of these weapons.
Japute: Of the three weapons listed, this one comes the closest to earching he Exotic weapon categorisation. Still, even with it's special features it's should only be a Martial, Light Melee Weapon.
Shimalo'koa: Mechanically, this should be a Simple, One-Handed Melee Weapon.
Kaua'koi: There's nothing to mechanically differentiate this weapon from a quarterstaff except that it's not a special monk weapon and you can choose to do either bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage. Nothing here to make it anything other than a Simple, Two-Handed Melee Weapon.
It should be noted that I'm strongly opposed to the idea that a weapon should be listed as Exotic (and thus require a feat slot to use without penalty) simply because it's "uncommon," "foreign" or "strange." A weapon should only be put into the Exotic category if it is mechanically superior to a Martial weapon of the same type. Otherwise, it punishes players that try to select weapons to make their characters "different" or "exotic."
Now lest it sound as though I'm not trying to dog Mr. Logue, I'd like to note that I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the article. :)
Now lest it sound as though I'm not trying to dog Mr. Logue, I'd like to note that I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the article. :)
Ha! At first I was like "There goes Pett, making up new online personas to plague me with!" :-)
Sadly, I'll never never see this article as I live on the Isle of Dread, where the postman fears to tread. I'm not sure what the final versions of these look like. I think they vibe with some feats though, which makes em a wee more useful (unless this was changed in the final edit).
I hear you on the exotic weapon "must give advantage angle" though. I like the Kaua'koi, just because I hates damage reduction, and being able to sink all your enhancement feats (Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, etc.) in one weapon that does all kinds of damage is good for me, but then again, your point is valid as not too many monsters have DR/type-of-weapon-damage.
Hunh, I thought the shimalo'koa was pretty badassed, maybe it got changed a bit. 1d8 damage for a light weapon with a 19-20 threat range.
Hey, we can't all be spiked chains can we. ;-)
Again the feats make em better if I recall correctly. Kahiko, Kahiko Master and Tribal Trait give little extra bonuses and nifty abilities (unless of course they were changed in the final cut). Again, I'll never never know. Living on the Isle of Dread has its disadvantages folks.
Dungeonless in Diamondhead,
Nick
Hunh, I thought the shimalo'koa was pretty badassed, maybe it got changed a bit. 1d8 damage for a light weapon with a 19-20 threat range.Hey, we can't all be spiked chains can we. ;-)
Going from a longsword, and making it light so it can be finessed and a pair used effectively with two-weapon fighting seems worth the exotic feat to me.
Looking at similar exotic weapons the Elven Thinblade is 1d8 and 18-20 threat range, it can be finessed but isn't light.
Elven Lightblade is 1d6 and 18-20 threat range and is light, going up a damage dice from the lightblade for the drop of a threat range seems fair.
It should be noted that I'm strongly opposed to the idea that a weapon should be listed as Exotic (and thus require a feat slot to use without penalty) simply because it's "uncommon," "foreign" or "strange." A weapon should only be put into the Exotic category if it is mechanically superior to a Martial weapon of the same type...
But that is the point of the feat -- or the whip wouldn't be exotic.
For example, the kaua'koi is not mechanically identical to a staff -- markedly different skills are required for its use (skills that are not taught to most fighters in D&D's default setting).
It's the very same thing as a monk having to take a feat (Martial Weapon Proficiency) to use a longsword.
With respect, I think you just don't like this aspect of the rules as written.
Regards,
Jack
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Ha! At first I was like "There goes Pett, making up new online personas to plague me with!" :-)
Sadly, I'll never never see this article as I live on the Isle of Dread, where the postman fears to tread.
I'm sure that the Scarlet Brotherhood blockade just off the South Olman Isle doesn't help, either. ;)
I'm not sure what the final versions of these look like. I think they vibe with some feats though, which makes em a wee more useful (unless this was changed in the final edit).
I hear you on the exotic weapon "must give advantage angle" though. I like the Kaua'koi, just because I hates damage reduction, and being able to sink all your enhancement feats (Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, etc.) in one weapon that does all kinds of damage is good for me, but then again, your point is valid as not too many monsters have DR/type-of-weapon-damage.
I agree that it's a nice ability, but when compared to other Exotic double weapons, it still feels lacking. Take the two-bladed sword or the double axe, for instance. Both provide an effective 1d10; 20/x2 for damage (in the form of either 1d8; 19-20/x2 or 1d8; 20/x3). Also note that the double flail does 1d8; 20/x2 on top of providing a +2 to disarm and allowing you to trip an opponent. I'd feel much more comfortable with the Kaua'koi if it was 1d8/1d8; 20/x2, allowed you to trip opponents (using the spurs and nodules) while keeping the ability to choose which type of damage type.
Hunh, I thought the shimalo'koa was pretty badassed, maybe it got changed a bit. 1d8 damage for a light weapon with a 19-20 threat range.
Yeah, it got changed--it lost that 19-20 crit range. If it still had that (being the equivalent, mechanically, of a short sword with a die increase), I agree it would be spot on as an Exotic, Light melee weapon.
Hey, we can't all be spiked chains can we. ;-)
Again the feats make em better if I recall correctly. Kahiko, Kahiko Master and Tribal Trait give little extra bonuses and nifty abilities (unless of course they were changed in the final cut). Again, I'll never never know. Living on the Isle of Dread has its disadvantages folks.
I hate sounding so contrary (please consider all of this to be constructive criticism), but I feel that the balance of a weapon shoudn't be reliant upon additional feats--those additional feats (which are cool, BTW*) should provide their own benefit without having to compensate for an underpowered weapon. Besides the Kahiko and Kahiko Master feats are pretty much monk-only (flurry of blows being a prerequisite), so their benefit doesn't impact characters of other classes.
* I especially dig the Tribal Trait feat--I particularly enjoy feats that not only grant a mechanical bonus, but also help ground the character to the setting.
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It should be noted that I'm strongly opposed to the idea that a weapon should be listed as Exotic (and thus require a feat slot to use without penalty) simply because it's "uncommon," "foreign" or "strange." A weapon should only be put into the Exotic category if it is mechanically superior to a Martial weapon of the same type...But that is the point of the feat -- or the whip wouldn't be exotic.
Not entirely. Take the bastard sword for instance. Sorry, but if a player is expected to expend a feat, they should be rewarded mechanically. Otherwise, you're punishing player creativity--and that's bad. I have qualms with the whip, too. With the inclusion of the whip-dagger (that uses the same proficiency as the whip), the whip became less of a problem.
For example, the kaua'koi is not mechanically identical to a staff -- markedly different skills are required for its use (skills that are not taught to most fighters in D&D's default setting).
Yes, and bastard swords and katana are used in markly different ways, but the proficiency is the same. On the flipside, scimitars and rapiers are also as mechanically identical as the quarterstaff and Kaua'koi--and they're both martial weapons. Besides, your argument holds only so much water--if the players in STAP are from Sasserine (which lies on the edge of the Amedio jungle), they're likely familiar with Olman weaponry (or perhaps are Olman themselves). Thus, it's no stretch to say that these weapons shouldn't be Exotic for players in Sasserine.
It's the very same thing as a monk having to take a feat (Martial Weapon Proficiency) to use a longsword.
No it isn't. A longsword is mechanically superior to the other weapons on a monk's list. Also, weapons should be consistent within the context of each other--not to classes with specialised weapon lists. It's somewhat tolerable with Simple and Martial weapon (as most classes using these weapons won't require an addition feat to use them, and those that do usually have inferior weapons to begin with), but it's not good when Exotic weapons are underpowered.
With respect, I think you just don't like this aspect of the rules as written.
I think I've stated as much, though. Making a weapon require a feat expenditure without some sort of mechanical recompence is bad game design IM(NSH)O. Unfortunately, there's currently precedence for it in the PHB--I just hope that that changes in the next revision or edition of the game.
Unearthed Arcana has a variant for weapon group feats. If a desire is to have people familiar with regional weapons, that mechanic could be modified so that characters from a region are proficient in the weapon groups for weapons from their region. By the UA variant, characters start off with bonus weapon group feats.
Not a perfect mechanism, I prefer the older style taking of weapon proficiencies and/or weapon group proficiencies, but this may scratch your itch regarding the ability loss for characters that take individual exotic weapon proficiencies.
...if the players in STAP are from Sasserine (which lies on the edge of the Amedio jungle), they're likely familiar with Olman weaponry (or perhaps are Olman themselves). Thus, it's no stretch to say that these weapons shouldn't be Exotic for players in Sasserine.
While we disagree on quite a few points, I'm with you (at least in principle) on this one. IMC I'm ruling that there is little crossover culturally between Olman and Sasserine, so their weapons are still going to be exotic.
On the other hand, the concept of exotic weapons is that they are just that -- exotic. If that's not arguably the case for a society (as you're suggesting), as DM I take them off the Exotic Weapons list in a heartbeat.
Regards,
Jack
I hate sounding so contrary (please consider all of this to be constructive criticism), but I feel that the balance of a weapon shoudn't be reliant upon additional feats--those additional feats (which are cool, BTW*) should provide their own benefit without having to compensate for an underpowered weapon.
I disagree, in that WotC themselves have often pointed out that there are a number of "gateway feats"-- feats that, by themselves, are pretty much useless, but which pave the way for better feats down the chain. The most extreme example is maybe Sacred Vow, which on its own is 2/3 of a "Skill Focus: Diplomacy" feat at full price, but it's a prerequisite for Vow of Poverty and all its absurdly broken vastness of benefits. A more mundane one is Spell Focus (conjuration), because very few conjuration spells allow saving throws (orb of fire, anyone?), but the feat is a prerequisite for the druid must-have Augment Summoning. I figure the Olman exotic weapon proficiency feats are exactly the same: gateway feats for the cool Olman feats. If you still disagree, well, I suppose no one's forcing your players to grab them up, or from the DM's end, no one can really keep you from house-ruling otherwise.
As far as the weapon itself being lame, well, in the long run a d6 isn't all that different from a d8, when you get to higher levels and your feats and bonus damage and special properties are doing all the talking for it.
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I disagree, in that WotC themselves have often pointed out that there are a number of "gateway feats"-- feats that, by themselves, are pretty much useless, but which pave the way for better feats down the chain.
Paving the way is fine, but.... If a feat doesn't provide a benefit of use equal to the >>lowest level that it can be taken<<, the feat is pretty crappy. Yes, entry level feats should suck compared to a feat the requires you to be high level--but it should provide something useful to a 1st-level character.
The most extreme example is maybe Sacred Vow, which on its own is 2/3 of a "Skill Focus: Diplomacy" feat at full price, but it's a prerequisite for Vow of Poverty and all its absurdly broken vastness of benefits.
That's not helping your case that such feats are well designed. ;)
A more mundane one is Spell Focus (conjuration), because very few conjuration spells allow saving throws (orb of fire, anyone?), but the feat is a prerequisite for the druid must-have Augment Summoning.
Ah, but less optimal use of a feat doesn't mean that the feat itself is crappy. Sure, Weapon Focus (gauntlet) is a pretty sucky choice, but Weapon Focus is, in itself, a good choice for a 1st-level combat oriented character.
I figure the Olman exotic weapon proficiency feats are exactly the same: gateway feats for the cool Olman feats.
Not unless you're a monk, no. Of the three feats presented, Kahiko and Kahiko Master are monk-only. The Tribal Trait feat doesn't affect the use of any of the weapons--unless you choose thethe Tanaroans tribe. And, then, it only affects the use of the kaua'koi (by allowing you to do two different damage types--ie, bludgeoning, piercing, slashing--at the same time.
The feats are fine, it's the base weapon stats that seem off.
If you still disagree, well, I suppose no one's forcing your players to grab them up, or from the DM's end, no one can really keep you from house-ruling otherwise.
Meh. That's not the reason I brought it up. Like I said, I'm trying to offer some constructive criticism.
As far as the weapon itself being lame, well, in the long run a d6 isn't all that different from a d8, when you get to higher levels and your feats and bonus damage and special properties are doing all the talking for it.
Ehm. Sorry, but I don't buy off on the "grand scheme" argument. The fact that it doesn't matter at 10th-level doesn't mean anything to players of 1st-level characters. Considering that some characters never reach much higher levels (due to character death, player retiring the character, campaign lasting only a short time, etc.), there's no consolation in "at higher levels it doesn't matter."
Not unless you're a monk, no. Of the three feats presented, Kahiko and Kahiko Master are monk-only. The Tribal Trait feat doesn't affect the use of any of the weapons--unless you choose thethe Tanaroans tribe. And, then, it only affects the use of the kaua'koi (by allowing you to do two different damage types--ie, bludgeoning, piercing, slashing--at the same time.
The feats are fine, it's the base weapon stats that seem off.
Hunh...I don't remember making those feats for monk only...is flurry of blows a prereq for the feat? I know I allowed the weapons to be used with a flurry, but the other advantages you get with the weapons are useful regardless of your class (more damage, use weapons to trip, disarm, grapple, etc.)...again, I don't have the final version of the article (and don't even have my draft in front of me right now) so I'm not sure about those extra abilities.
Also keep in mind that if you take Olman Brother, you get two for one on the Exotic Weapons - in retrospect I agree Azzy, I probably should have changed this so that if you take Olman Brother you treat them all as martial weapons. Go ahead and change the feat that way and say also that the weapons are considered martial for any Olman PC and I think the problems solved.
I say Azzy, go ahead and up the kaua'koi to 1d8/1d8 if you want, it makes good sense (the thing is a big sharpened, gnarly bone afterall and it should do some damage!). Glad you dug the rest of the article!
As far as the weapon itself being lame, well, in the long run a d6 isn't all that different from a d8, when you get to higher levels and your feats and bonus damage and special properties are doing all the talking for it.
I think Erik has a real good point here though. Even at low levels a weapon's damage die is pretty meaningless...especially in the case of the kaua'koi, cause you can wield the thing two handed (making Power Attack truly formidable). 1d6 plus a ton'o Power Attack damage gets the job done just as well as 1d8 plus the same, but still go ahead and up the damage die Azzy, cause you're right it will make a HUGE difference over time for PCs who go the Two-Weapon Fighting route.
I love D&D!!! So many options. I could play a standard Fighter every game and have almost limitless options of ways to go! :-)
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Hunh...I don't remember making those feats for monk only...is flurry of blows a prereq for the feat? I know I allowed the weapons to be used with a flurry, but the other advantages you get with the weapons are useful regardless of your class (more damage, use weapons to trip, disarm, grapple, etc.)...again, I don't have the final version of the article (and don't even have my draft in front of me right now) so I'm not sure about those extra abilities.
It seems your feats got worked over--"flurry of blows class feature" is now one of the prerequisites of the class. I think I'm gonna go with your version (without FoB as a prereq).
Also keep in mind that if you take Olman Brother, you get two for one on the Exotic Weapons - in retrospect I agree Azzy, I probably should have changed this so that if you take Olman Brother you treat them all as martial weapons. Go ahead and change the feat that way and say also that the weapons are considered martial for any Olman PC and I think the problems solved.
Was Olman Brother a forth feat? The closest thing I can find is in the Olman Tribe affiliation--at an affiliation score of 4-10, one of the benefits is gaining proficiency with one of the olman weapons.
I say Azzy, go ahead and up the kaua'koi to 1d8/1d8 if you want, it makes good sense (the thing is a big sharpened, gnarly bone afterall and it should do some damage!). Glad you dug the rest of the article!
Cool. :)
Thank you--I really appreciate you taking time out to address my meagre issue and for putting up with my rantiness. I can honestly say that you are one hoopy frood who really knows where your towel is. :D
And how can you disrespect someone with a quote like that?
Indeed. Even if I still don't necessarily agree 100%, Azzy's comments are lucid, well-thought-out, and polite. And he likes Logue, so he's OK in my book! I do think it's interesting that the feats got gutted before they reached the readers though, which is an interesting tidbit we'd never have known about without this thread. Nice job on all three counts, Azzy.
the feats got gutted before they reached the readers though
Probably only in the sake of space and balance.
Thanks for all the awesome comments guys! You rocketh hard!