I've always loved the idea of an 'all-magician'; a character that can cast every spell in existance. I've never seen a published class that truly accomplishes this (mystic theurge comes closest), so I decided to make one. I'm not good at putting rules into all that legal-esque language that appears in published books so bear with me.
The Mage
HD: d4
BAB: Poor
Good Save: Will
Skills: 2 + Int (Wizard class skills)
<b>Spells:</b> A mage's spells are arcane and are Intelligence based. A mage can cast any spell from any spell list. The mage's Spells per Day progression is exactly the wizard's. This progression also acts as the mage's Spells Prepared; a mage casts spells spontaneously. Spells Prepared represent the last spells which the mage studied from his spell book; as long as these spells are prepared, the mage can cast any of them spontaneously.
<b>Spell Books:</b> Like wizards, mages use spell books to store and study spells. Unlike wizards, mages can scribe any spell from any spell list into his spell book.
<b>Metamagic Specialist:</b> Mages can apply metamagic to their spells without increased casting time. This only applies to spells derived from mage levels.
<b>Spell Aptitude:</b> A mage has great aptitude with spells. By spending one hour of meditation, she can change the designated school for one or all of her feats that apply to a single school such as Spell Focus. To use this ability the mage must additionally be able to cast a spell from the newly designated school herself; in the hour of meditation the mage uses a spell slot as if she had actually cast the required spell.
<b>Cooperative Spell:</b> Bonus feat at first level.
<b>Immortal:</b> At 20th level a mage becomes immortal; he ages until he becomes venerable but will never naturally die.
I find your idea quite intriguing. Would this class now be able to use all scrolls and wands as well? I would imagine there would need to be some extra limitation to the spells known/prepared, owing to the fact that a member of the proposed class could also cast healing/curative magic at all levels. Also, how would you handle spells that are different levels for different types of caster. It would seem unfair to always give the mage the most favorable.
I have a new player in my group who plays a Sorcerer/Human Paragon/Mage of the Arcane Order. He comes close to this vision in many ways, although he has had to make sometimes severe sacrifices to do this.
At first I thought it would be difficult to DM a character who could conjure up almost any known spell (exclusively divine spells notwithstanding) but I can see the charm and versatility of such a character for a player, and it isn't all that game breaking. At higher levels it will be more difficult, when he can draw, say, a wish spell from the spell pool, but it still has its limitations. As long as there were some proscriptions with your Mage class, I would feel the same.
I look forward to seeing the discussion on this character. It could be an interesting addition to the game world.
Your idea is pretty close to the Unearthed Arcana Spellcaster class. (Just discard the last few sentences about multi-classing between arcane and divine spell casters.)
I like it. To balance it out I would have it gain new spell levels known a little more slowly. Also I would avoid the immortal thing and replace it with Timeless Body (You don't get older but when your lifespan is up you die) and give it to them at like the 12th level. I would be interested in seeing their class table. Its a great idea.
I find your idea quite intriguing. Would this class now be able to use all scrolls and wands as well? I would imagine there would need to be some extra limitation to the spells known/prepared, owing to the fact that a member of the proposed class could also cast healing/curative magic at all levels. Also, how would you handle spells that are different levels for different types of caster. It would seem unfair to always give the mage the most favorable.
Yes, a mage could use any scroll or wand. What limitation to spells prepared would you suggest? Mages have the potential to have a library containing every spell known to mortals, but are still limited to 2 free spells per level just like wizards. Mages get the best of all spell lists; they are free to take the lowest level version of any spell. This has a couple benefits but I don't think it's unbalanced; I could be wrong though.
Your idea is pretty close to the Unearthed Arcana Spellcaster class.
I like generic classes, except in this case the Spellcaster has a limited number of spells known, which is a big deal for me.
I like it. To balance it out I would have it gain new spell levels known a little more slowly. Also I would avoid the immortal thing and replace it with Timeless Body (You don't get older but when your lifespan is up you die) and give it to them at like the 12th level. I would be interested in seeing their class table. Its a great idea.
Do you mean a slower spell progression like a sorcerer or more like a bard? I don't consider the sorcerer's 1/2 spell level stunt to be a real drawback because they do still get ninth level spells. Any particular reason you don't like the immortality ability? Personally I've always felt that Timeless Body is a kind of immitation immortality, which just isn't appealing to me.
This class makes the wizard obsolete. It does all of the same things, only better. The Mystic Theurge pales in comparison as well.
Agreed about the mystic theurge; personally the way MT is designed it deserves to be overshadowed. Not agreed about the wizard; they get a familiar (appealing to some) and those bonus feats (very cool).
This class makes the wizard obsolete. It does all of the same things, only better. The Mystic Theurge pales in comparison as well.
Try to work out the balance issues. Basically, this class needs to be watered down.
I disagree. I think the class does nothing to "obsolete" the wizard class that, say, a warmage or beguiler does to the sorcerer. Remember, The wizard gets a few perks that this class would not. A familiar, bonus feats and a free scribe scroll feat. Instead, it gives a character access to a few more spells than a wizard would otherwise have, a roleplaying mechanic in the form of a modified timeless body, and the ability to refocus ones feats to any school of magic they can cast once per level.
If you look at this logically, the bard already does this kind of thing in a limited manner. Do you want the main firepower in your party to be able to blast things OR heal hurt party members? Keep in mind that the spells first have to be found, and be able to be scribed - and that all this costs moola. 100gp per page to be exact. Sure, you can scribe a fourth level Druid spell and a 3rd level bard only spell, and 2 4th level wizard spells, but that's 1500 gold, plus that cost of the scroll. What other equipment does your character want?
I would note an addendum to an above poster that said it would be a disservice to the other classes if a mage were to get the same kind of lower level availability for their spells. I agree, but I'm not sure how I would determine fairness. Split the difference? Always take the higher? In the end, however, I don't think it would make a bit of difference.
Celric
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I refuse to believe that anyone takes the wizard class for the familiar. They take the class for the diverse spell selection. This class outdoes them in that regard. The bonus feats are nice, but this class gets a few goodies, too. AND it casts semi-spontaneously. Thus, they have greater spell selection than the wizard, greater flexibility to choose their spells in the heat of the moment, and don't even take the casting time penalty for metamagic feats.
The beguiler/warmage vs sorcerer comparison bears mentioning. I think it's safe to say that the sorcerer is one of the less powerful classes in the game. Those newer classes are, in my opinion, more like what the sorcerer should have been. In contrast, wizard is widely regarded as one of the most powerful classes out there. And this class one-ups them. That says something about the power level involved.
The expense of the spellbook has no relevance to this classes relative potency to the wizard. The wizard has the same expenses so it is a wash between them.
I also think this class would be a bit too powerful.
This class takes the wizard’s greatest strength, the massive spell list and its versatility, and makes it greater. It takes the wizard’s greatest weakness, having to pick spells in advance, and removing most of its sting. In return, it gives up several bonus feats (no small matter, certainly) and a familiar (oh well).
I think you’d have to add some more limitations on to it to balance it with the wizard. Maybe it gains no bonus spells from Int, Wis or Cha and it cannot learn item creation feats that create permanent items. The mage’s sole focus is spellcasting, and casting smalls spontaneously from a subset of spells in his book, so he gains no bonus spells as he is not casting them from memory, force of will, divine supplication or force of personality, just pure inner strength (class level). Similarly, by focusing solely upon spellcasting, the mage forgoes the ability to craft permanent magic items.
It reminds me a bit of the Warblade class from the Tome of Battle, but with Wizards instead of Fighters. I like the idea, and I think it's balanced. I also wouldn't worry about immortality at 20th lv. The game's about to wrap up usualy, so it wouldn't have a hugh impact.
Fizz
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I'd go so far as to say that this class makes all other spellcasting classes obsolete. It's a "jack of all trades", but rather than being a master of none, it's a master at any/all of them. It can perform in any spellcasting niche as well as (or better than) the core classes it replaces. Why make the limiting decision of being a healer, or a damage-dealer, or a utility spellcaster, when you can take this class and be any/all of them on a given day?
Don't understimate the benefit of having every spell in the game available to you, as needed, at the earliest possible level of any class that can cast it. That needs a pretty significant drawback to balance it out.
My players are power gamers, and I guarantee they would choose this class over any other spellcaster, because it would give them a huge advantage. If that's hard to imagine, consider reversing the roles and coming up against a villain spellcaster of this class: you would never know how to best prepare for such a fight, because the enemy could have prepared any combination of wizard/druid/cleric/ranger/bard/assassin/etc spells to create any number of potent combinations that no other caster could access.
I hate giving unconstructive criticism, especially on an idea this intriguing, so here's an idea you might be able to use to balance out the advantages of this class while still keeping true to the source material about mages: Introduce a fatigue/exhaustion mechanic that causes a Mage to become progressively weaker as he/she expends more energy on spells. By the time the mage has cast his maximum number of spells for a day, he should be taking penalties to skill checks (especially Concentration), limited in his movement speed, and generally feeble. Maybe even sustaining some nonlethal damage or Ability score damage if he tries to overdo it. (There could be a mechanic for overexertion to exceed your normal limits in heroic situations.)
Thanks for all the input! Due to the high frequency of 'it's overpowered!' comments my final decision is:
Remove spontaneous casting and instead focus on the mage's magical nature. Mages ooze magic so they radiate a magic aura as magical items with caster levels equal to their class level. Additionally, the mage gains a progression of supernatural and spell-like abilities useable at will:
2: Prestidigitation
4: Detect Magic
6: Read Magic
8: Nystul's Magic Aura
10: Alter Self
12: Arcane Sight
14: Identify
16: Telepathy 100 ft.
18: Polymorph
20: Immortality
I am aware that a lot of folks are skittish about polymorph, but a little DM-player preparation is a small price to pay for an ability that fits so well with the class.
Thanks for all the input! Due to the high frequency of 'it's overpowered!' comments my final decision is:
Remove spontaneous casting and instead focus on the mage's magical nature. Mages ooze magic so they radiate a magic aura as magical items with caster levels equal to their class level. Additionally, the mage gains a progression of supernatural and spell-like abilities useable at will:
2: Prestidigitation
4: Detect Magic
6: Read Magic
8: Nystul's Magic Aura
10: Alter Self
12: Arcane Sight
14: Identify
16: Telepathy 100 ft.
18: Polymorph
20: ImmortalityI am aware that a lot of folks are skittish about polymorph, but a little DM-player preparation is a small price to pay for an ability that fits so well with the class.
For what its worth - I think the class, is REALLY overpowered, more so now than before you changed when it was already over powered. Way more powerful than even a gestalt character. Whether that is good or bad depends on your game and game world - so it isn't a critique - just an observation.
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I am just trying to figure out what exactly you are trying to do...
In your initial post, you seemed to imply that you wanted to create a class that had access to all spells. An interesting concept.
So, you took the wizard class.
Took away bonus feats and the familiar.
(and that is pretty much it...)
Then you tacked on --
Access to all spells
Spontaneous casting
Spontaneous casting with metamagic feats without penalty
A bonus feat
The ability to modify fixed feats with only an hour of meditation.
And the immortal ability (which is really a non-element in most campaigns)
You then took away the spontaneous casting and added a whole mess of spell-like abilities (I am assuming that they are "at will").
Again, ask yourself -- why would anyone want to be a wizard or a cleric?
Here are a few thoughts about how I would do it.
The Mage
HD: d4
BAB: Poor
Good Save: Will
Skills: 2+Int (Wizard class skills)
Spells: The mage has the unique ability to learn spells from other spell lists as arcane spells. At first level a mage gains access to the wizard's spell lists. At every even level thereafter, the mage can choose an additional spell list to gain spells from. This can come from different class lists (bard, cleric, druid, etc.) or can come from domain lists (Chaos, Strength, etc.) or from spell lists granted by some feats (initiate feats, etc.) or from any other arcane or divine spell list available. Spells must be researched and learned similar to a wizard. Casting spells requires an Intelligence AND Wisdom score to be at least 10 + spell level. Bonus spells are determined by the mage's Intelligence score. Saving throw DCs are based on the mage's Wisdom modifier. Spellcasting progression is the same as a wizard.
Spell-like abilities: Starting at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter (3, 6, 9, etc.) the mage can choose a spell that she knows that is no more than one spell level less than the highest spell level that she can cast. She can now cast that spell as a spell-like ability 2/day without the need to memorize the spell. She still needs to meet all requirements necessary to cast the spell. If there is a costly material component, this must be paid for in advance with 50 times the cost of the material component. The mage can change their choice of spell chosen at each odd numbered level starting at level 5. The new spell level chosen must be the same as the old spell level. Metamagic feats can be applied to the spell-like ability at the time it is chosen. No other feats can be applied to determine the total spell level. (An empowered magic missile will always be equivalent to a 3rd level spell.) These spell-like abilities are in addition to the normal spell casting progression of the mage.
This does a number of things. It gives the class an increased spell list. It does it a little more gradually, but I feel that reflects the mage's studies. It gives the player a little more "power" to customize their character as they see fit. The spell-like abilities also allow the player to customize differently from each other while still giving you the "spontaneous" caster feel. The Intelligence AND Wisdom requirements keep this class from the masses. You can throw in the immortal "ability" if you want as that usually doesn't have much difference in play. It also doesn't have any bonus feats, the familiar ability, or much else to try and keep it balanced. Still may be a bit too powerful, but I feel that this does most of what you are really looking for.
Good luck with this.
I think there's an important question here: what would make a player ever choose a wizard over any version of this class?
It seems like an attempt to remove undesireable limitations from wizards without replacing them with other disadvantages.
Regards,
Jack
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I think there's an important question here: what would make a player ever choose a wizard over any version of this class?
Mostly that the wizard gets bonus feats and a familiar (granted, I too don't consider the familiar to be a great benefit). Also, with my "version", the Int AND Wis requirements can be a fairly steep cost.
Well I'm sorry to hear that some folks still read the mage as overpowered. My only defense is that I truly don't think that it is. All those free spells that I gave the class (yes, usable at will) are utilities and vastly overshadowed by the mage's real spells. In order to douse any possibility of the polymorph ability causing problems, I'll make the ability operate at the mage's caster level -10 so that he/she couldn't possibly use it to become some tweaked-out monster. (and if the DM somehow isn't able to stop such from happening with the -10, they deserve the headache)
Why would anyone want to play a cleric or wizard if the mage is an option? Bonus feats, turn undead, better HD+BAB, more spells per day. The mage has the most versatility, hands down, but is surpassed in raw power by both core classes.
Oh and to settle any problems with spell level discrepancies I'll add the following stipulation: if a spell exists on multiple spell lists, the mage uses the lower of spell levels, but only from the spell list of a full (9 spell levels) caster. So Plane Shift would be a 5th level spell, but Suggestion would be a 3rd level spell.
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Here are a few thoughts --
The "free spells" are mostly utilities. Personally, I don't know that I care that much about Polymorph -- mostly since you aren't really giving it to them until 18th level anyway. However the ability to do it at will, seems a bit much. For that matter, any spell that a caster can do at will is probably a bit much. It costs a normal wizard a fair amount of XP to do the same (with permanency) and even that has some limitations of which spells can work. I feel that telepathy at will and arcane sight at will are just about as game breaking as polymorph at will.
Probably the biggest issue is the ability to cast ANY spell. This is a really big deal and one that is difficult to fully think through. There are reasons that wizards have some spells that other classes don't have access to and vice versa.
The bonus feats for a wizard are not really all that it is cracked up to be. Some are helpful, many of them add flavor, but very few of them really add a whole lot to the wizard class power. (15th level caster can cast an empowered fireball for an average of 52.5 points of damage or a cone of cold for an average of 52.5 points of damage. How is that more powerful?)
It's hard to compare this to a cleric who can cast more spells, automatically knows all the spells that he can cast, can cast spells in armor, has better armor and weapon proficiencies, a better BAB, better saves, can cast more spells a day, can turn, better hit die, etc. You really need to compare this to a wizard.
Even if the mage class was simply the wizard class without the bonus feats and without the familiar (again, very minor costs) and instead had access to all spells from all spell lists, I still think that it would be a little more powerful than a straight wizard. I would easily give up 5 feats (the number of bonus feats a wizard gets through 20th level) just to have access to the paladin list, the cleric list, the druid list, the shujenga lists, & the assassin list. You've given the class access to all that and more right at first level. Then you have given the class additional abilities on top of that.
Consider this -- few monsters have spells at will and fewer still have 9 different spell-like abilities at will. I don't know of anything that has polymorph at will (except for some very specific shape-changing creatures and even then the creature has some very specific limitations to the ability).
One saving grace -- I'm not sure how great it really is to have access to 257 1st level spells when they can only cast 6 1st level spells a day (assuming less than a 28 Int).
Oh and also, here's one reason why someone wouldn't take the class -- bookkeeping nightmare. I have a hard enough time keeping track of all my spells when I play a wizard. One of our players did a mystic theurge once and created this complicated spreadsheet and brought his laptop to gaming just to keep track of his spells. This seems so much more complicated than that.
I don't know if any of this helps at all. Is it more powerful than the wizard class? -- I believe it is much more powerful.
Is it "overpowered"? -- I don't know. The limit on how many spells he can cast per day is pretty significant for this class and may be the one aspect that keeps this class from being "overpowered".
Is it playable? -- probably.
I hope this helps. (I'm done rambling...)
I apologize if I didn't make this clear Moff, but are you under the impression that a mage has free access to all spells like a divine caster? I intended mages to only have as many spells as are in their spell books, just like wizards.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Even if the mage class was simply the wizard class without the bonus feats and without the familiar (again, very minor costs) and instead had access to all spells from all spell lists, I still think that it would be a little more powerful than a straight wizard. I would easily give up 5 feats (the number of bonus feats a wizard gets through 20th level) just to have access to the paladin list, the cleric list, the druid list, the shujenga lists, & the assassin list. You've given the class access to all that and more right at first level. Then you have given the class additional abilities on top of that.
I haven't been following the debate too closely, but I disagree with this point. I have a hard time thinking of a spell from any other class that could not be given to a wizard without overpowering them. The biggest limitations on a wizard that I can think of are (i) they can't heal and (ii) they can't cast silence. The former is really a flavor restriction, not a power issue. The later is a relatively minor increase in power. Wizards have the most potent spells in the game, giving them a whole host of less potent spells from the other classes isn't going to make them more powerful, just more versitile.
Losing all their other abilities for that versitility strikes me as a fair trade (and possibly even an underpowered trade). I think the most conservative route to an uber-caster is to do just that - use the wizard chasis, jettison all the non-spellcasting abilities, and give them access to all spell lists. Piling a couple minor abilities on top of that (e.g., a familiar) is probably also acceptable. I would like to see an example of a spell from the core rules that would make such an uber-wizard unbalanced.
That being said, I think the proposed abilities go well beyond minor.
I like the class. My only change would be to have the mage follow the spell progression of the wizard but one level later. I'm not sure what I would do for the 1st level of the class, though. The greater versatility of the mage is then offset by having to wait longer for spells.
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I apologize if I didn't make this clear Moff, but are you under the impression that a mage has free access to all spells like a divine caster? I intended mages to only have as many spells as are in their spell books, just like wizards.
No, I understood correctly. Really, it is a minor point. Given enough time, a wizard (in theory) could come up with every spell in their spellbook anyway.
After giving this some thought, the spell lists probably aren't that big a deal -- especially since the mage has such a limit on how many spells they can cast each day.
I would still reconsider the "at will" ability of some of your special abilities. Putting a limit of even 2/day would help tone some of the special abilities down a bit while still keeping a lot of the power and flavor of the class.
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I have a hard time thinking of a spell from any other class that could not be given to a wizard without overpowering them.
I don't know of any one or two spells either, but I would be more concerned of weird combinations of spells. TS, you should probably take a very close look at all the spells with a range of "Personal". Probably more than anything else, these spells would probably have the best chance of making the class overpowered, since often times they are "Personal" simply because other classes shouldn't have access to them. There probably still isn't that much out there, but I wouldn't want to give a true power-gamer access to this class for fear that they would find something that would make life for the DM very difficult.
What if you reduced the chance for the mage to learn/write spells into their spellbook as follows (alternately you could add the same modifier to the DC):
Sorcerer/Wizard -0
Other Arcane -5
Divine -10
or something. My strongest misgiving is an arcane caster who can have access to all the healing spells of a Cleric or even some of the spells Druids get. With this system, in order to write Heal into their spellbook under your rules, the mage would have to make a DC 21 Spellcraft Check at a -10 to his roll (or just a DC 31) after a day of study. Not impossible for most mages, but still challenging.
I don't know if any of this helps at all. Is it more powerful than the wizard class? -- I believe it is much more powerful.
I agree.
Is it "overpowered"? -- I don't know.
I do -- it is. The wizard is on of the best-tested classes, and is the standard by which other arcane spellcasters are measured.
A single spell useable at will is worth far, far more than any single feat. Looking at the various rulebooks shows that at-will spell-like abilities are given sparingly and result in significant CRs and ECLs. There are, in fact, feats out there that will grant three low-level spells as spell-like abilities -- useable once per day.
This class trades a few feats for about double as many unlimited-use spells. If they were useable once per day each, other facets of the class might be discussed; but those alone throw it way out of balance.
While the idea is interesting, removing limitations from the wizard class has to be counterbalanced by new limitations. This has none :/
IMO :)
Jack
After giving this some thought, the spell lists probably aren't that big a deal -- especially since the mage has such a limit on how many spells they can cast each day.
Until the character gets Scribe Scroll, and can overcome the spells/day limit very quickly :/
This is the finalized Mage; I submit it to the general public to do with what you will, whether to use in your campaign or to point out to other gamers as an example of yet another overpowered class.
The Mage
HD: d4
BAB: Poor
Good Save: Will
Skills: 2 + Int (Wizard class skills)
Spells: A mage's spells are arcane and are Intelligence based. A mage can cast any spell from any spell list. The mage's Spells per Day progression is exactly the wizard's. If a spell exists on multiple spell lists, the mage uses the lower of spell levels, but only from the spell list of a full (9 spell levels) caster. So Plane Shift would be a 5th level spell, but Suggestion would be a 3rd level spell.
Spell Books: Like wizards, mages use spell books to store and study spells. Unlike wizards, mages can scribe any spell from any spell list into his spell book.
Spell Aptitude: A mage has great aptitude with spells. By spending one hour of meditation, she can change the designated school for one or all of her feats that apply to a single school such as Spell Focus. To use this ability the mage must additionally be able to cast a spell from the newly designated school herself; in the hour of meditation the mage uses a spell slot as if she had actually cast the required spell.
Magic Aura: A mage radiates an aura of magic equal to that of a magic item of the same caster level.
1: Cooperative Spell, Magic Aura, Spell Aptitude
2: Prestidigitation
4: Detect Magic
6: Read Magic
8: Nystul's Magic Aura
10: Alter Self
12: Arcane Sight
14: Identify
16: Telepathy 100 ft. (communication only; no mind reading or subjugation)
18: Polymorph (operates at -10 caster level, but no cap)
20: Immortality
Looks good and I love the idea.
Great Job!!
Fizz
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As an alternate thought, why not have the Mage be able to learn spells from any list, but have a limit on how many spells they can know like the Sorcerer. In that way they are similar to a Sorcerer in their mechanics, but can pick their spells from any list? It is a major upgrade over the Sorcerer, but still not quite as powerful as the versatility of a Wizard's spellbook.
I'm not much of a designer, but if I were to allow such a class in my own game, I would probably do it that way.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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A single spell useable at will is worth far, far more than any single feat. Looking at the various rulebooks shows that at-will spell-like abilities are given sparingly and result in significant CRs and ECLs. There are, in fact, feats out there that will grant three low-level spells as spell-like abilities -- useable once per day.
I would have agreed with this sentiment prior to the publication of the Warlock, but that class flies in the face of the prior at-will-abilities-are-dangerous reasoning. It's definitely a challenge to design such abilities without having them be overpowered, but I do think there is more latitude in the rules than there used to be.
Even though debate has been cut off, the abilities of the class are awfully front loaded. I would be worried about cherry picking at this point even if there is a belief that the class is of the appropriate power level (a statement with which I disagree).
I would have agreed with this sentiment prior to the publication of the Warlock, but that class flies in the face of the prior at-will-abilities-are-dangerous reasoning...
Hmmm, interesting point -- more so because I've been running a Warlock as an important NPC for our group. Of course, debate over the Warlock is far from over.
You're right, though; more latitude has been emerging over such things.
Regards,
Jack
This is the finalized Mage; I submit it to the general public to do with what you will, whether to use in your campaign or to point out to other gamers as an example of yet another overpowered class.
I think this class might work (with tweaking) as an alternate primary spellcaster; it would probably work best as the only primary spellcaster of a campaign (the warlock, although equivalent to a sorcerer in many respects, isn't really a "spellcaster," and might make an interesting rival class). The main problem is that it makes the other primary spellcasters more or less obselete; they can cast any spell that the other classes can (plus the other lists, too), gain Cooperative Spell for free (making groups very powerful), don't need to worry about a diety's ethos, and can pick up armor and weapon use and/or better attack progression through multiclassing or prestige classes. Although when you can cast Barkskin, Mage Armor, Shield, and Shield of Faith on yourself at 3rd level, do you really need to wear armor? When you can cast every offensive spell, do you really need weapons?
The first tweak would be granting access to all spells on the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard lists; this should be enough versatility, without detracting from the specialized nature of bards and paladins. The second tweak would be with the class abilities: 1st Cooperative Spell, Mage Sight (Detect Magic at will), Magic Aura, Prestidigitation (at will); 5th Spell Aptitude; 10th Improved Mage Sight (Arcane Sight at will); 15th Identify; 20th Timeless Body. Most of the rest of the abilities are not balanced if granted IN ADDITION to spellcasting, instead of IN PLACE of spellcasting. Use Timeless Body instead of Immortality to prevent campaign continuity headaches; alternately, Immortality does not halt aging effects and the character continues to accrue aging ability score modifiers at each multiple of venerable age.
Alternately, you can treat the mage as a variant wizard that gives up all special abilities for the following: Domain Spell Access. At 1st level, the mage gains access to the spells of any two cleric domains of his choice (as if he had taken the Arcane Disciple feat; he does not have to meet the requirements for the feat). At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, the mage gains access to an additional domain of his choice.
I've given this class a bit of thought. I think Dragonchess Player's comments were constructive, and touched on various objections I have. Comments about the Warlock earlier also got my mind going.
Simply put, this class is a wizard with the following changes:
Deletions:[ul]
Additions:[ul]
[/ul]
I think the class is an exercise in eliminating any degree of balance.
Anyone, please correct me if I've made any glaring errors. Sorry for beating the proverbial dead horse; I've said my piece, so I'll shut up now.
Regards all,
Jack
To clarify, the mage does not cast spontaneously (hence no metamagic specialist) and does indeed suffer from arcane spell failure. (I'm not good at the legal-esque mumbo jumbo, and just assume that an arcane caster suffers ASF unless specified otherwise.)
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In the end, there's no such thing as a "good class" or "bad class" when it comes to usability in a D&D game. Balance is important insomuch as it supports the fun of the people playing by giving them an equivalency as the story progresses, but not all groups work that way.
In my opinion, this class is blatantly superior to the other spellcasting classes, rendering them obsolete. That doesn't make it bad, or unusable...it just puts it on a different scale of ability than other classes. Some campaigns could be designed to work with it and be genuinely fun for the players. Maybe other enhanced classes like this could be made to balance it, creating a sort of epic/superheroic D&D that crosses class boundaries with a smaller selection of classes featuring more crossover abilities, like this Mage blends other spellcasters.
I'd feel guilty playing it in a standard D&D game because I'd feel like I was cheating, but in a game designed for that kind of play, I'd have fun with it. More directly relevant to my current role in my games, though: as a DM, I'd never allow it in my D&D 3.5 campaign without some major changes.
My two cents.
To clarify, the mage does not cast spontaneously (hence no metamagic specialist)...
Point taken. That still leaves us here:
Deletions:[ul]
Additions:[ul]
At least three of the additions (first, second, and last) are big. Any one of those alone would completely outweigh the removal of four (or so) feats -- and they aren't alone.
Balance continues to be entirely absent. If that's not important, it would be simpler to say so from the start (it is your game, and there'd be nothing wrong with that).
Regards again,
Jack
There are any number of splatbook feats that will allow a wizard to cast a limited number of divine spells (Divine Sorcery and especially Alternative Source Spell stand out). Why not start with a wizard and swap out all his bonus feats for those feats. Then, trade the familiar for some spell-like abilities. You'd have your "mage" concept but on the same power base as the core classes.
Compare this build with your new class and you'll see that the "mage" presented in this thread is many times better.
Another thought -- players shouldn't be creating classes, DMs should. They should especially not be creating classes for their own use; play balance is rarely (if ever) on the priority list in that situation.
What makes you think I'm creating classes as a player?
What makes you think I'm creating classes as a player?
I don't, though clearly my post implied otherwise. Sorry :/
Without going into cumbersome mechanics a relatively clean way to address this concept - and align it with the other published classes - (which I am assuming is a goal).
Use the Sorcerer and Wizards Spell list as the base
Spells on other lists are at +1 their published level, so cure light wounds could be learned as an arcane spell but it would be second level, and reduce the caster level on "off list" spells by two - so a 3rd level mage could cast CWL as a 1st level caster.
Eliminate the bonus feats and familiar.
Gain a special or spell like ability - at
1st, 7th, 14th, 20th
At 1st the ability can be any Arcane cantrip.
At 7th it can be an Arcane 1st level spell or 2 cantrips.
At 14th it can be an arcane 2nd level spell or 2 1st level spell cantrips.
at 20th it can be a 3 level arcane spell (or 1 2nd level one 1st level, or 3 1st level spells)
These abilities are used at half the characters caster level and metamagic feats do not apply.
You might want to exclude a few spells - but that gives flexibility to the class as well.
Its still a little overpowered - but not by much especially if you limite the spells that can be selected as a spell like abilities.
We're still off the mark here. Look at existing classes -- even prestige classes. The ability to cast any spell from any list is a much better ability than any class currently has. Adding spell-like abilities on top of that borders on overkill.
Under the current system, the best you can do is get a few divine spells (by using up feats), or take levels in both and then go mystic theurge. In the latter case, of course, you get no additional special abilities. None. Your total number of spells per day is greater, but to get them you've given up 1-2 levels of the highest-level spells you'd otherwise have access to-- which, as people have often pointed out, is a MAJOR bummer, bordering on debilitating.
Of course, you could just scrap the core classes and rules and use Monte Cook's "magister," who gets access to all simple and complex spells, and special abilities-- but in that case, use Arcana Unearthed classes only, because they're on a par with each other (although each class is more powerful than a "standard" D&D class).
Or just run a gestalt campaign.
We're still off the mark here. Look at existing classes -- even prestige classes. The ability to cast any spell from any list is a much better ability than any class currently has.
Which is why I recommended using it as the only primary caster. You could even make it the ONLY spellcasting class in the campaign, leaving Barbarian, Dragon Shaman (PHB II), Fighter, Knight (PHB II), Monk, Rogue, Scout (CAd), Swashbuckler (CW), and Warlock (CAr) as the only other options (and psionics, I suppose, if you use them). This sort of campaign is much closer to a lot of fiction than a "standard" one, which may be what Tequila is trying to accomplish.
Or you could just scrap the standard spellcasting mechanic and use something different, like the channeling rules from The Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game. It's actually a pretty nice system, if you strip out the male/female differences specific to that setting and update it to fit with 3.5 rules.
Which is why I recommended using it as the only primary caster. You could even make it the ONLY spellcasting class in the campaign... Or you could just scrap the standard spellcasting mechanic and use something different
Aha, you and I are on the same track, then, DCP. If the class can't be made to fit the rules, then the whole campaign has got to change to accommodate it (not necessarily a bad thing either; it might be a lot of fun to experiment with other new classes, etc.).
Which is why I recommended using it as the only primary caster. You could even make it the ONLY spellcasting class in the campaign... Or you could just scrap the standard spellcasting mechanic and use something differentAha, you and I are on the same track, then, DCP. If the class can't be made to fit the rules, then the whole campaign has got to change to accommodate it (not necessarily a bad thing either; it might be a lot of fun to experiment with other new classes, etc.).
More or less. The core rules and classes are nice and familiar and all of the expansion material is interesting, but sometimes you want to do something different with a setting. This can come from class restrictions, disallowing or altering some core classes and allowing some expansion classes, which can make for some interesting settings (Oriental Adventures, anyone?). Occasionally, you need to completely change one of the core mechanics, like spellcasting, to fit the concept of the setting. The setting should drive the rules and the classes, instead of the other way around, IMO.