Any chance for an epic level Adventure Path or mini campaign arc? It looks like something that would be pretty challenging to write up. Would to see the creative minds of Paizo do something like this. It looks like Maure Castle may indeed enter this territory.
I realise it would be a pain as it would require access to source books that not everyone would be have. But it certainly would be a creative challenge that designers must of considered at Paizo.
Creative Director
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This request comes up now and then, but the answer remains the same. Epic-level adventures are simply not popular enough among our readers to justify devoting even 3 issues in a row to its support—psionics are more popular, and even they aren't popular enough for us to risk 3 issues of backlash.
Epic-level adventures are simply not popular enough among our readers to justify devoting even 3 issues in a row to its support.
I don't know about that. I for one wouldn't mind seeing an epic adventure or two. As far as I recall there has never been a 2 or 3 part epic adventure mini-arc and who says they have to be in a row? If memory serves the Shackled City path was not published in consective issues and that turned out alright.
Speaking as a subscriber some of my favorite adventures are the high level stuff i.e. Dawn of a New Age, The Quicksilver Hourglass and The Gates of Oblivionjust to name a few.
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Creative Director
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My comment about epic-level adventures not being popular wasn't just off-the-cuff. It's based primarilly on two things:
1: The fact that our market research and WotC's market research shows that psionics are more popular than epic-level play, and that both are MUCH less popular than standard D&D (particularly in the mid-level range, easilly the most popular level band to play in).
2: Although I've been asking for our authors to submit epic-level adventures for years now, these proposals are fantasticaly few and far between. Not many people want to play at these levels, and even fewer want to write adventures for these levels.
I'm by no means opposed to epic level adventures; I'd like to run at least one a year, but that means getting in a good proposal from an author. They're really hard to write, and in a lot of ways the skills of putting together a great lower level adventure simply won't cut it for epic level.
And yes, it would most certainly have to come out in consecutive issues if it were an adventure path or a campaign arc. Shackled City coming out once every 2 or 3 issues did actually hurt that campaign, which is why toward the end you saw installments appearing every issue, and why Age of Worms and Savage Tide run every month. These long-term adventures require the constant flow to work; if you take too long between episodes, they lose their momentum and players lose interest.
That all said, we'll certainly continue to publish high-level adventures. And it's likely that, just as with Dawn of a New Age, the last Savage Tide adventure will probably leak into 21st level adventuring.
If I see a sudden uprising of demand for epic-level adventures, either here on these messageboards, in the dungeon@paizo.com email in box, or elsewhere, I'll kick my search for Epic Level Adventures into high gear. Until that point, I'm afraid the epic-level drought will continue.
If I see a sudden uprising of demand for epic-level adventures, either here on these messageboards, in the dungeon@paizo.com email in box, or elsewhere, I'll kick my search for Epic Level Adventures into high gear. Until that point, I'm afraid the epic-level drought will continue.
Lemme go on the record for wanting epic level adventures in Dungeon. I have enough 1st through 20th level adventures to choke a dire horse. I don't want to just leak into 21st level adventures... I want to ride there in a gilt carriage.
Lemme go on the record for wanting epic level adventures in Dungeon. I have enough 1st through 20th level adventures to choke a dire horse. I don't want to just leak into 21st level adventures... I want to ride there in a gilt carriage.
I'll second that. I'm still waiting for a response to my second epic proposal I sent in three months ago, keeping my fingers crossed. I haven't seen a "true" epic dungeon since the superb Qicksilver Hourglass a year and a half ago, unless I missed one. I consider Dawn of a New Age borderline, it doesn't take epic level characters to go through it successfully.
Well I know I would be interested in and I am a subscriber :) Maure Castle will be epic if it continues its current progression. However as a game designer wouldn’t you find it an interesting challenge? Has it ever been something you “wanted to try”? Certainly a whole different set of challenges.
OK I'll rain on this parade... if I saw an Epic Level Adventure for three issues in a row I'd not be a happy camper. I mean I'd keep subscribing to Dungeon (can't go without my fix) but I'd send James really smelly hate mail and hire some crazy girl to stalk him.
if I saw an Epic Level Adventure for three issues in a row I'd not be a happy camper. I mean I'd keep subscribing to Dungeon (can't go without my fix) but I'd send James really smelly hate mail and hire some crazy girl to stalk him.
why?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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OK I'll rain on this parade... if I saw an Epic Level Adventure for three issues in a row I'd not be a happy camper. I mean I'd keep subscribing to Dungeon (can't go without my fix) but I'd send James really smelly hate mail and hire some crazy girl to stalk him.
Ditto. My campaigns rarely make it past 15th level. And, unlike a lot of other adventure types, its pretty difficult to water down a good epic level game (for a party of 10th level characters, replace the god of war with an ogre barbarian, and instead of a rain of fire and blood that destroys 100 square miles, have it be a really bad head cold that covers some trees in nasty reddish snot.)
if I saw an Epic Level Adventure for three issues in a row I'd not be a happy camper. I mean I'd keep subscribing to Dungeon (can't go without my fix) but I'd send James really smelly hate mail and hire some crazy girl to stalk him.why?
Answering from my own opinion...Because Epic level adventures will almost never be useful to me. Having three in a row, and of the length that would really be necessary to make a good Epic adventure, would mean three Dungeon mags in a row with little useful content. One (or I'd even go two) a year would be okay, but I wouldn't want a full quarter of the magazine dominated by them.
if I saw an Epic Level Adventure for three issues in a row I'd not be a happy camper. I mean I'd keep subscribing to Dungeon (can't go without my fix) but I'd send James really smelly hate mail and hire some crazy girl to stalk him.why?
I don't care for Epic and, unlike most other adventures that I might not care for, Epic level adventures are hard to read, absolutely filled to overflowing with stat blocks and not easily mined for good ideas I can use else ware.
So if I happen to not play in Eberron I can still steal a lot from Murder at Oakbridge, not to mention that there was something for a good DM to learn from reading that excellent adventure. But Quicksilver Hourglass? I'm not sure what the take home message was in that adventure. I mean its hard to re-imagine a Dead God trapped at the end of Time* and do a little drywalling to fit it into Waterdeep for a 9th level party. Better that I just throw the whole thing out and start completely from scratch. I'll probably save myself time and have a more coherent adventure in the end to boot.
I'm not saying there should be no Epic adventures. If there was one every 4 issues I'd not love it but I'd console myself with the understanding that some DMs surely are loving it. But three issues in a row of adventures that simply can't be short (the stat blocks go for pages after all) is to much of the magazine in too short a period of time that's of no interest to me.
*Some plot elements may have been remembered incorrectly - this adventure was of no interest to me, I did not attend to it all that carefully, mostly I marveled at the size of the stat blocks.
Lemme go on the record for wanting epic level adventures in Dungeon. I have enough 1st through 20th level adventures to choke a dire horse. I don't want to just leak into 21st level adventures... I want to ride there in a gilt carriage.
I'll third (or fourth?) that. :)
And the flip-side of the problem...somebody's going to have to write these Epics. As James mentioned earlier, that doesn't happen very often. Having written a few adventures myself, I'd definitely not look forward to writing multiple Epic level adventures. They are VERY difficult to do properly and well...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Trying to be fair now (and hopefully not offend anyone!):
Dungeon currently publishes 36 adventures a year. I’m sure that 95% of groups don’t use more than, say, half the adventures from a particular year. Should every adventure published in the magazine appeal to everyone? No. The magazine would become very boring if every adventure did try to appeal to everyone.
I’d love to see one capstone adventure every two issues- which would still leave 30 adventures per year (18 excluding the adventure paths), and even then, the majority of Dungeon fans would still have a backlog of other issues from which to choose.
Of course, if an epic adventure DID take up half an issue for three issues, there would be a lot of complaints. I’m sure there’s a happy medium somewhere, and I don’t mind seeing epic adventures (or those featuring any other capstone system).
I defer to the powers that be, but my limited experience and my even more limited understanding is that adventures featuring a capstone system have great deal of disutility for those not using the system just as those using a specific campaign setting have great disutility for those not using that campaign. Plus, a good adventure using a capstone system should be hard to convert (or else it isn't doing a very good job highlighting that system).
This disutility is greater than the typical "this adventure is about giant toads, my homebrew word of Replar does not have any toads, therefore I cannot use this adventure." Most DM's will roll up their sleeves, pluck out the giant toads, and replace them with world-appropriate creatures. Or steal the NPC's or the plot.
In comparison, the capstone system creates the feeling of "OMG, what is this stuff? What is a psionic focus and how does it work? Who are these Red Wizards of Thay and what do they want?" Because definitive answers exist to these questions, it's not always as comfortable to make changes/replacements on the fly, and thus the entire work gets dismissed and very little is salvaged.
Again, I don't purport to speak with everyone, but the above description is an accurate representation of my own reactions. I admit, it's entirely irrational and illogical to feel like I can't change references to rulesets that I don't own, but that's the feeling that comes over me.
But, of course, the final nail in the coffin, is the fact that not a lot of good capstone adventures get submitted. Granted, this could be a chicken/egg problem (nobody submits such adventures because they believe they have a lesser chance of being published), but honestly, unless your name begins with N. and ends with icholas Logue, your chances of getting published are relatively slim. If you've got a good idea for a capstone adventure, submit it. Lord knows that I have been persuaded as to the virtues of both FR and Eberron by virtue of the quality of the articles published on those settings. I'm sure I could be persuaded as to Complete Nerf/The Book of Dragon Ninjas/etc.
Should every adventure published in the magazine appeal to everyone? No. The magazine would become very boring if every adventure did try to appeal to everyone.
'Nuff said.
I look at it this way. It would be something I would want to see and I would want to see it done well. After shackled city, AOW and now Savage Tide I am confident that Paizo could do a good job with it. So for a learning experience for me as a DM I want to see what they do.
Because to be frank creating and running a single epic adventure is mind boggling difficult for me. More because I wouldn’t know where to start and my low to mid DM’ing experience doesn’t translate well. If for no other reason I would want to see what Paizo could do. I mean if it tanks it tanks. I am kind of surprised at how narrow minded some of my fellow DM’s are. I usually get ZERO from a dungeon magazine that I use for my own personal campaign. But that doesn’t somehow make Dungeon less valuable. I don’t rate a Dungeon mag on “how much I can rip it off” but more on “how much I enjoyed it”.
I love the Maure Caste series for example and that recent Dungeon adventure with the Indian Style temple (the one in the mountain at the centre of a storm). But I’ll never use them for my campaign because they don’t fit. But I still derived enjoyment from reading them. I own, literally, hundreds of modules from 1e days I’ll never play even 1/10th of them.
I think a double adventure, expanding on or dealing with the aftermath of the two AP's so far might possibly go over well.
Something that answers the question, "okay, we've dusted Kyuss. Now what?"
But, maybe not enough people have finished those campaigns to make it worthwhile.
To expand on this idea, a double adventure would also work well for space reasons, given the huge stat blocks needed for epic dungeons. There is no way around this dilemma which makes the already difficult task of writing an epic dungeon even harder. A double adventure could alleviate some of that pressure.
Given what James has said though, I really doubt it'll happen.
Trying to be fair now (and hopefully not offend anyone!):
Dungeon currently publishes 36 adventures a year. I’m sure that 95% of groups don’t use more than, say, half the adventures from a particular year. Should every adventure published in the magazine appeal to everyone? No. The magazine would become very boring if every adventure did try to appeal to everyone.
I’d love to see one capstone adventure every two issues- which would still leave 30 adventures per year (18 excluding the adventure paths), and even then, the majority of Dungeon fans would still have a backlog of other issues from which to choose.
Of course, if an epic adventure DID take up half an issue for three issues, there would be a lot of complaints. I’m sure there’s a happy medium somewhere, and I don’t mind seeing epic adventures (or those featuring any other capstone system).
Now this would be something I'd like to see. Though I note that 'capstone system' seems to mean something different to Sebastian and myself. I could care less if the adventure featured Red Wizards of Thay and was otherwise an excellent adventure. Converting an adventure about an evil wizards cabal just should not be that tough for me. For example I thought the Vampires of Waterdeep trilogy was the cats pyjama's. Sure I don't use Forgotten Realms but I do use fantasy cities and I do use vampires. Should be an easy conversion.
I'd say that having an adventure with elements that are unlikely to be in the average fantasy campaign every two issues would probably be a better goal to set. So some Eberron is fine anytime. But if a specific Eberron adventure involves foiling a plot to kill an important noble by exposing a conspiracy to sabotage his dirgable while he is on a good will tour then that qualifies as 'capstone'. Even if it's great its real hard for most of us to use.
Same deal with Oriental Adventures, Psionics, Magic of Incarnum and Epic. Now of the above five systems (counting Fantasy with weird probably technological items as a 'system') I could probably utilize two and I like the two I could utilize so much that I would be willing to see limited space devoted to all of them just so that sometimes I get what I want. But there should never be a situation where Psionics is featured in three issues in a row or anything. That said I would not really mind a loose trilogy for any of the above. I just feel that if one is done it should be spread over 18 months or so and DMs that like this sort of thing will just have to be patient. Hence the need to make the trilogy loose. They need to work as stand alone product.
So in sum - I don't want to see three issues in a row of Epic Adventures but I sure as hell would like it if Dungeon expanded its horizons. More veriaty more often gets a big thumbs up form me. Definitly something a bit new and different every 2nd issue would be nice.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sorry, I think I mixed my analogy up discussing capstone systems and campaign settings. I use the term capstone system to describe a book like the Expanded Psionics Handbook or Book of Nine Swords - it's a ruleset add on with a substantial underlying mechanic outside the scope of the core rules.
The point I was trying to make was that even a little bit of either a capstone system or a campaign setting can serve to disproportionately alienate audiences that are not familiar with that system or setting. I think the problem is worse with a system because either the adventure needs to assume that you have the appropriate text or repeat sufficient rules that you do not need such text.
Epic adventures are probably the least problematic from this perspective because they do build mostly on the core mechanics.
In any event, I must say that I prefer the current Dungeon policy which seems to be "we'll publish good adventures using novel mechanics when we receive them" rather than "we'll publish X epic/psionic adventures each year, by hook or by crook."
And on that note, good luck with your adventure proposal ericthecleric! Getting the nod to submit something is terrific, congratulations.
Just going to toss in another vote for some Epic material.
So far I've bought in back issues all the previous epic material, and plan on using them should my group ever finish SCAP (fingers crossed).
I don't use Psionics, high-tech-Eberron stuff, Incarnum, etc, but adventures using those would not bum me out. After all, I'm here for the adventure paths (less work for me!), and would love to try out Epic when the group gets there.
Keep up the great work, and great variety of adventures!
-c
I wouldn't mind seeing ONE epic-level adventure in Dungeon once a year, but any more than that would seriously annoy me given how fluff-light and crunch-heavy these things tend to be. Even one such adventure would probably eat up far more space than your typical Dungeon adventure, so it would be filling two slots, not one.
Still, the possibilities of epic gameplay are interesting and someone should explore them in Dungeon.