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I am reading over the first four installments to this latest AP, and I love it! I think it's the best one so far!
I dont run or know much about the Greyhawk world, and I believe that is where the Scarlet Brotherhood is most pronounced.
Can someone please point me in the direction of a resource book that provides a lot of detailed info about this organization. I would like to get a good grasp of their government and ideals.
The biggest reason for wanting this is that I wish to replace this group with some group that is native to my own campaign world where I typically run most of my games; that way the players that I've had for years will be more apt to be familiar with the flavor and nature of this mover and shaker organization that is focal to the Savage Tide backstory.
Thanks,
Robert
The SB has been discussed in several threads already:
Scarlet Brotherhood As Pirates
Please Clearify Crimson Fleet Scarlet Brotherhood
Scarlet Whatsits
In that last one, I provided the following:
Wikipedia is your friend...
In the Dungeons & Dragons World of Greyhawk campaign setting, the Scarlet Brotherhood most often refers to the Great and Hidden Empire of the Scarlet Brotherhood, a nation located on the Tilvanot Peninsula in the southeastern Flanaess, though it can also refer to the secretive organization which rules that land. The Scarlet Brotherhood is also the title of a 1999 sourcebook for the setting by Sean K. Reynolds.
Sometimes called the Kingdom of Shar ("purity"), the Scarlet Brotherhood is headed by a cadre of monastics, with final authority resting in the hands of the "Father of Obedience."
During the Greyhawk Wars, the Brotherhood made many gains, taking over the Lordship of the Isles, the Sea Princes, Idee, and Onnwal. However, they lost Idee to the South Province (now part of Ahlissa) in 586 CY, and in 589 the Hold of the Sea Princes errupted in civil war. In Onnwal, the Brotherhood rules only the port of Scant, though the Lordship of the Isles remains completely under their control.
The Scarlet Brotherhood is a caste society, valuing the Suloise race and culture above all others. Full citizenship is granted only to those of pure Suel blood who adhere to the Brotherhood's philosophy of Suel hegemony. Those who are of mostly Suel extraction have some rights, but not nearly as many as citizens. The lowest tier of Brotherhood society is occupied by its slaves, made up of non-humans and humans of "mongrel" blood.
The Brotherhood has an active eugenics program and conducts regular interbreeding experiments.
References:
* Gygax, Gary. The World of Greyhawk (TSR, 1980).
* Gygax, Gary. World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting (TSR, 1983).
* Holian, Gary, Erik Mona, Sean K Reynolds, and Frederick Weining. Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (Wizards of the Coast, 2000).
* Moore, Roger E. The Adventure Begins (TSR, 1998).
* Reynolds, Sean K. The Scarlet Brotherhood (TSR, 1999).
* Sargent, Carl. From the Ashes (TSR, 1993).
Of these sources, The Scarlet Brotherhood (perhaps obviously) has the most detailed info. It is, however, a 2e source book.
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Has the Tu'Lung connection mentioned in fate of Istus been retconned? Always led to much teasing of our greyhawk historian, but of late I've developed a dislike for it myself
"Yeah, well where would the SB be w/o teh Tu'Lung? Stuck with fighter levels, that's where!"
Sorry, don't know what you're talking about there (I've never owned/played Fate of Istus...)?
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The SB has been discussed in several threads already:
Scarlet Brotherhood As Pirates
Please Clearify Crimson Fleet Scarlet Brotherhood
Scarlet WhatsitsIn that last one, I provided the following:
Thank you very much - I read all of the links and have a much better understanding - though several people have different perceptions of them tells me that there still isnt' a very good universal understanding. They seem to remind me a bit of the Children of the Light in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time?
Two things perplex me then: As I said I know little of Greyhawk, so saying that they are trying to re-establish a Suel Empire means nothing to me. What is Suel? Can you liken them to an historical empire in the world that best defines them....?
Also, if they are knowingly racist and evil, and trying to dominate the world, why then are they tolerated in civilized areas of racially diverse lands such as Sasserine? Or are their members all secretive like the Lords of Waterdeep or the old our historical Illumniati society?
Robert
Consider that while the common man might know they are "bad", the common man doesn't know exactly why. The full extent of how "evil" they are isn't really something that is common knowledge; most people only get the surface picture, which is bad enough to make them wary and suspicious.
The very reason they are tolerated in Sasserine is because it is cosmopolitan. The Scarlet Brotherhood is a powerful force: Sasserine doesn't exactly want to piss that kind of force off by being rude and prohibitive, at least not obviously. They want to see just what the Brotherhood has in mind for their city, and will respond as they feel appropriate when they have more information. Consider it an example of the adage: "Keep your freinds close, and your enemies closer."
The Suel are an ethnic division of the World of Greyhawk as well as an ancient empire in that setting. The Suel were always a malevolent group of powerful arcane spellcasters from the south western part of the Flanaess and their empire was destroyed in the ancient times by the Baklunish empire directly north of them (for the Baklunish, think of the Ottomans or the Saracens). Since then, they scattered throughout the world, with the Scarlet Brotherhood still holding onto the original holdings.
The Brotherhood is likely most equivalent in my mind to Neo-Nazis; vicious racists with a powerful drive for expansion. Their belief is that the Suel are the supreme race and all others must be enslaved to their will. They experiment with magical breeding to create new servitor races, train as monks, assassins and wizards and have a great deal of power in the southern jungles where they have enslaved indigenous peoples.
Similar organizations in other campaign settings may be: The Zhentarim or Kraken Society in Forgotten Realms and the Order of the Emerald Claw or the Inspired in Eberron. These aren't exactly perfect fits, but the Brotherhood itself is only a minor faction of the Savage Tide unless a PC joins that affiliation.
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Similar organizations in other campaign settings may be: The Zhentarim or Kraken Society in Forgotten Realms and the Order of the Emerald Claw or the Inspired in Eberron. These aren't exactly perfect fits, but the Brotherhood itself is only a minor faction of the Savage Tide unless a PC joins that affiliation.
Thanks guys, I greatly appreciate the input. So I take it that not all members of the Suel race cling to the Scarlet Brotherhood ideals? Just as not all germans would be considered "Nazis." I imagine Suel as a player race and only certain members of this race have these intolerant elitist tendencies?
Hmmmm, I now must figure out how much of the Ideals of The Scarlet Brotherhood are needed in order for the campaign to be successful - well more appropriately the need for them be Suel (or Suel-ish); as I do not have a race of persons who are similar to the Suel in my campaign world - at least none that resemble powerfully innately arcane; the history of my world is that is only recently underwent a major cataclysm that actually thrust the world out of a dark age that saw little magic or no magic. The races are all descendants of primarily warrior nations. Magic has only recently become prevalent and lawful to be used.
How bad would changing the Scarlet Brotherhood to be a group of elitists who were primarily warrior driven as opposed to an inately magical race?
Thanks
Robert
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Has the Tu'Lung connection mentioned in fate of Istus been retconned? Always led to much teasing of our greyhawk historian, but of late I've developed a dislike for it myself
Considering that that connection was, itself, a 2nd-edition retcon , it is typically dismissed from GH "cannon" by almost all GH players (in fact, it was ignored and dismissed by the later The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory).
Thanks guys, I greatly appreciate the input. So I take it that not all members of the Suel race cling to the Scarlet Brotherhood ideals? Just as not all germans would be considered "Nazis." I imagine Suel as a player race and only certain members of this race have these intolerant elitist tendencies?
It should be clarified that the Suel (or Suloise) are one of many human ethnic derivations in the world of Greyhawk. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suloise
And, no, not all Suloise are predisposed towards the SB or their goals. Many, especially good-aligned and mix-blooded Suloise, would be aghast if they knew the true goal of the Brotherhood.
Hmmmm, I now must figure out how much of the Ideals of The Scarlet Brotherhood are needed in order for the campaign to be successful - well more appropriately the need for them be Suel (or Suel-ish); as I do not have a race of persons who are similar to the Suel in my campaign world - at least none that resemble powerfully innately arcane; the history of my world is that is only recently underwent a major cataclysm that actually thrust the world out of a dark age that saw little magic or no magic. The races are all descendants of primarily warrior nations. Magic has only recently become prevalent and lawful to be used.
How bad would changing the Scarlet Brotherhood to be a group of elitists who were primarily warrior driven as opposed to an inately magical race?
For your setting, your Suloise equivalent doesn't need to be highly magical--any human ethnic group intent on racial purity, world domination and the enslavement/destruction of non-their-ethnic-group individuals.
The members of the Scarlet Brotherhood tend to be rogues, assassins and monks (the monks are the highest caste, politically, in the group).
Actually the best view of the Brotherhood is they are like the Aryans that conquered India and set up the caste system there. Preists at top, followed by warriors, merchants, ect.
They were very secretive until just a decade ago, as in hardly anyone outside of their nation knew of them, but now they are more open and trying different tactics for domination which doesn't always involve conflict.
Bob
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Considering that that connection was, itself, a 2nd-edition retcon , it is typically dismissed from GH "cannon" by almost all GH players (in fact, it was ignored and dismissed by the later The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory).
What exactly does RETCON mean? This is the second time I've seen this term used this week - having never encountered it before. Both having something to do with modifying something previously written, but not sure if that's the most exact definition.
It should be clarified that the Suel (or Suloise) are one of many human ethnic derivations in the world of Greyhawk. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suloise
And, no, not all Suloise are predisposed towards the SB or their goals. Many, especially good-aligned and mix-blooded Suloise, would be aghast if they knew the true goal of the Brotherhood.
For your setting, your Suloise equivalent doesn't need to be highly magical--any human...
I have just such a group! The "Iron Talons" A hell-bent group of evil knightly order worshipping a Hextor-type god; who believes that might makes right, out for domination of the lands, and whose ideals are that humans are the only pure race and deal in slave trading of the demi-humans. They are led by a high-priest known as the "High-Razor" who rides a great fiendish - black dragon called Ebon-Fang. They have monastic orders called the Order of the Iron Fist, and terrible wizards called Dark Warlocks. The Iron Talons all worship one specific religion.
Thanks for the help.
1 more question: does the SB pay homage to a single universal deity? and if so, is the existance of this particular religion a necessary aspect of the campaign? If so, I may have to change that to the religion that the Iron Talons follow.
Thanks again,
Robert
Robert
The Brotherhood is more of an ethnic organization than a religious one. The deities they worship are mainly the Suel pantheon of the time; Wee Jas, for example, was a Suel deity before her assimilation into the larger pantheon. Religion is broken down by profession, with miners and workers worshipping the patron of their profession, wizards and governors worshipping Wee Jas, etc. In other words, you can change their religion while keeping the spirit in tact.
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The Brotherhood is more of an ethnic organization than a religious one. The deities they worship are mainly the Suel pantheon of the time; Wee Jas, for example, was a Suel deity before her assimilation into the larger pantheon. Religion is broken down by profession, with miners and workers worshipping the patron of their profession, wizards and governors worshipping Wee Jas, etc. In other words, you can change their religion while keeping the spirit in tact.
Cool; thanks James.
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Ok, thanks Azzy on the Retcon info, it's been a while since I read the SB soruce book.
Robert B,
Retcon per wiki:
Retroactive continuity or retcon is the adding of new information to "historical" material, or deliberately changing previously established facts in a work of serial fiction. The change itself is referred to as a "retcon", and the act of writing and publishing a retcon is called "retconning". Retconning can be done either on-purpose, or accidentally, wherein a break in continuity is not noticed until later and is then 'blessed' by later writers or editors.
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Ok, thanks Azzy on the Retcon info, it's been a while since I read the SB soruce book.
Robert B,
Retcon per wiki:
Retroactive continuity or retcon is the adding of new information to "historical" material, or deliberately changing previously established facts in a work of serial fiction. The change itself is referred to as a "retcon", and the act of writing and publishing a retcon is called "retconning". Retconning can be done either on-purpose, or accidentally, wherein a break in continuity is not noticed until later and is then 'blessed' by later writers or editors.
Ah, thank you very much. For instance, we watch Obi Won Kanobi go through Episode 1-3 hanging out with R2-D2 and C3PO, but when we go back to watch the original Star Wars movie we're suppose to accept that he doesnt' recognize either of the two droids when he finds them in the desert.
Robert