RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Here's a conundrum for the DMs out there:
Say you've got a ranger specialized in archery and he got himself a ring of improved invisibility that can be used 3 times a day. The rules for the Hide skill say that you can make a Hide check immediately after making a ranged attack with a -20 on the check. However, the rules for invisibility state that an invisible creature gains +20 to their Hide check (since they're obviously moving to hide). This means that the sniper is effectively making the roll at no net bonus or penalty for sniping.
The creatures he is firing on are not magically capable (no spells at all), nor are they possessed of terribly keen eyes or ears. Because this ranger has MAXED his Hide and Move Silently skills, there is basically no way (short of a natural 1 or 20 on one side or the other) these creatures will detect him and he will gleefully blast away at them until they die.
Naturally, the creatures could run away, but then they would no longer be guarding the thing they are there for in the first place, so that isn't an option. I can't think of a logical strategy for these creatures to use against this type of offensive. They can take cover, sure, but Improved Precise Shot eliminates the value of such things. Are these creatures basically completely screwed? Can someone think of something they could do to find the ranger's location at least enough to try and hit him (even with a 50% miss chance)?
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
The usual foils to invisibility still work, particularly creatures with scent.
All that moving will generate listen checks, so the targeted creatures can try to detect him using hearing instead of sight.
Area effect attacks might do it. The targets should be able to figure out the general direction from which he is firing. Range might still be an issue.
Arrow slits will work until Improved Precise Shot comes into play.
Tower shields?
Is there more context to the question? It is a powerful ability, but somewhat limited (only really useful if you are outside).
|
Outfit them with potions of invisibility and add an arcane guard with enough spellcasting to cast see invisibility and faerie fire. He hides inside until the action happens and then quaffs his potion and comes out to see what's up. Or use any one-use items you can to even it out if you can't do a caster guard.
DISCLAIMER- I as a player would be a bit miffed if my cool little trick was constantly nullified by the DM. Use these tactics sparingly.
The other route is to go with area effect spells like fireball, ice storm, the various cloud spells.
FH
How many creatures are there as guards? If they find themselves under attack and they realize the person is invisible they could all coordinate and keep an eye out for when he fires again. Once he shoots they tell each other where they saw the arrow come from.
What this represents in game mechanics is everyone making aid another checks for one of the guards. Even with only 6 guards, if 5 of them make their aid another checks, then the final guard gets a whopping +10 to his Spot check.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Okay, thanks for the replies so far! Sorry I wasn't more specific.
Yes, the encounter is happening outdoors. Specifically in a forest, at night (well, dusk anyway). There are 6 guards total, 3 sleeping and 3 awake and on patrol. The guards are simple ogres with character levels (each one of them is a Ftr 8) and the ranger in question is a moon elf Rgr 12. The camp is lit by a large campfire, providing illumination out to 30 feet and shadowy light out to 60 ft. (doubled for the elf). The guards are patrolling in a circle roughly 20 ft. from the fire. Next to the fire are the 3 sleeping guards and the artifact they are guarding (a golden statue which contains a potent elixir of resurrection). The camp area is mostly flat and clear of brush but is surrounded on all sides by dense foliage and trees. The sniper is 90 feet from the fire (70 feet from the closest target).
The ogres have been given +2 greatclubs and +1 breastplates but against the elf's 22 Dexterity and +3 bow, you can imagine how easy the shots are for him at that level, especially with Weapon Focus (longbow) and Far Shot. The elf also has the Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind (+5 to Hide and Move Silently). His total skill bonuses are +28 on both of those skills. The ogres have a +8 to Spot. Even with the Aid Another option, it's +18 versus +28 and they have to cope with distance penalties for Spot.
I bothered to give the ogres Blind-Fight, but it still won't help them until they can find where the archer is hiding...
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Sounds like they're pretty f+@!ed to me.
Is it too late to make the ogres were-wolves or were-bears or were-something-with-scent? How about a wizardly buddy with see invisibility (or detect magic?)
I definitely think the ogres should be able to determine the quadrant in which the archer is located. But still, whenever they get close, I can't see why the archer won't just move to another location altogether.
I think they're best option is to split up and try to find shelter or a hiding spot of their own. They could even disguise who has the artifact and hide it. Or, even threaten to destroy it if the archer continues to attack.
You could also, if modifying the ogres is an option, make their leader an ogre-mage, which would give them a little bit of magic on their side...
Regarding your situation, there is not much hope for the enemies. Most times it is important to realize a ring of improved invisibility is much more difficult to obtain than a ring of see invisibility. You have a 4th level spell vs a 2nd. Since regular invisibility is only a 2nd level spell, you have to base counter measure available on the prevalance of spellcasters in your campaign.
Another problem would be a ranged attacker having winged boots or a similar magic item. He could take to the air and pick off ground troops at his leisure. The same applies to a spellcaster.
In the end some encounters will be easy with these tactics. Creatures with magical ability or high intelligence will be able to easily counter common magical tactics.
Have the guards set up a smoke screen between them and the ranger. Miss chance is nice.
have the guards determine what quadrant he is in and start a forest fire to smoke/burn him out.
Send one guard in each direction for reinforcements.
And lastly pray to their ogre god for salvation.
Rain. If there's a believable way to bring rain into the equation, then the ogres can pinpoint the ranger.
Maybe the artifact itself resists being taken. Make it intelligent, with 120 ft. blindsight, and any sort of powers you wish, from invisibility purge, to control weather, to simply shout or even ghost sound.
Obscuring mist - This spell makes sure the ranger can't see them unless he's up close and personal, limiting his ability to just pluck away at them from a distance. Not only that, but the void his presence will create in the mist should help them pinpoint his square. Still a 50% miss chance, but it's better than nothing.
Also; /why/ are they guarding this thing? Are they trying to keep it /for/ someone? Or are they trying to keep anyone else from getting it? Now, Ogres may not be all that smart. But they should be smart enough to realize that someone dancing around invisible picking them off one by one is probably after the thing they're guarding.
Thus, their response: "Hey! You come out now or Grog smash statue!!"
Suddenly, the ogres hold the cards again, and they can bargain for a scenario that offers a more honest challenge for your ranger (and the rest of his party). Maybe they'll take something in trade for it. Maybe they'll demand the party protect them from their boss, who is /going/ to kill them for handing it over. (If the boss kills the heroes, the guards plead that it was all part of their clever trap to deliver the heroes to the boss).
Or, if you want to take the character down, have a wolf investigate the ogres' scent, and find a tasty elf.
The elf will take the wolf down, but now the ogres know where he is, at least generally.
Director of Narrative
|
The usual foils to invisibility still work, particularly creatures with scent.
Doesn't Detect Magic foil invisibility? J/K! But yes, I think the only way to get around this character - sparingly - would be to have magic on your side. Mundanes won't be able to match it without wicked listen checks, scent, blindsense, tremorsense or the like. As far as magic goes I agree with the above-posters (APs?). Area of effect spells, See Invisibility, Dispell Magic, a readied Faerie Fire, True Seeing, etc.
A glitterdust bomb?
|
I agree with eric. I would think their employer would have made thwarting invisibility a priority for creatures guarding such an important item.
He would be guarding it against two main tactics (although there are others, certainly): brute force (got that covered) and stealth (especially invisibility).
Well, the obvious thing to do if your getting sniped and cannot see the sniper is to track the direction that the missles are coming from; should be easy enough as arrows can be seen and would not be invisible and when they hit the fletching points back to the source; a squad or two in tight line formation beats the ground with their clubs and lights stuff on fire, looks for tracks; and stuff like that; the second line follows them doing much the same and with missle weapons to mass target any area a fresh arrow comes from; granted ogres are not that smart; but if they are smart enough to value something or have a leader that is somewhat intelligent, then they can adventually burn back a no hide kill zone, what we called a fire zone or field of fire out to 200m, basically twice shooting distance; and secondly, they need to entrench or make some fortifications to be harder targets. A grape shot type catapult or since they are ogres you could just have them trow rocks; 10 or so throwing directed fire at the same spot would have much the same effect. Unless the ranger also does not have to breath; his coughing would give away his position. If the bad guys have any sneaky gits with them; they can counter sneak and hide to move in on the area; when they suspect they found the target they can throw floured pepper or something or engage hoping the ogres get there in time to help. Aggressiveness is the key here; a horde of ogres stomping and beating the bushes for an hour is bound to make the ranger nervous and unless he has a lot of discipline he will give away his position by moving; coughing; other noise or making another attack.
just my two bits, i would think frustrated, hurt ogres would start smashing and burning everything in sight; after all; they like that sort of thing and they couldnt give two spits about the forest anyway - think purty fire and roasted ranger for dinner. With this tactic you dont have to add any other character of modify the adventure; just play them as the brutes they are and be brutish.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Some very sound tactics here, thanks again for the input. Even if the ogres had see invisibility, they STILL couldn't beat the ranger's Hide check. That was the big thing I was getting at. He's using the Hide skill in conjuction with the invisibility which makes things doubly hard. If he were just standing in the open under an invisibility spell, it wouldn't be nearly as tough as it is.
If it were just improved invisibility I would suggest that they take cover behind tower shields until they think of a better plan. After they have come up with a better plan the ranger should no longer be invisible sice I can't imagine improved invisibility lasting much more than two minutes.
Then, like someone else suggested, I would think they could try burning down the forest. Once there is nothing for the ranger to use for cover or concealment they should be able to fight normally. At this point though I'm not sure how many will still be alive.
1. What's the caster level on that ring? If the ogres can run/hide long enough, the 1 round/level improved invisibility will simply wear off, thus forcing normal Hide checks.
2. Why are you worried about him making Hide checks after shooting? He's still invisible, which sort of removes the need for those checks. Oh, and you mentioned the Natural 1 or 20 clause- doesn't apply to skill checks. Only saves and attacks.
3. I echo the above: rain. Rain will at least let the ogres make some Spot checks to determine where he's at. Also, I know his Move Silently is huge, but if the ranger ends up rolling bad and the ogres rolling high, he could find a whole wall of brutes rushing in his general direction. At least one of them is likely to bump into him. Then it's circle and swing like crazy until you hit something.
4. Greatclubs were pointed out as being bad weapons above. Not Large greatclubs. I find plenty to be afraid of from a 40 lbs. iron-bound oaken log, and someone big enough and strong enough to use it.
5. I don't think the objective is to change the ogres and give them magic. Sebastian has it right, though: scent. Have some wolf or worg "pets" or guard dogs (don't have to be a genius to figure that one out) which can pinpoint Mr. McSneaky.
6. They're screwed. Plain and simple. The ranger happens to have a tactic that will be near-impossible for the ogres to overcome. That won't always be the case, and as stated above, don't necessarily look to preempt this ability just because it works well in this situation. If it becomes troublesome in later sessions, start to look into counter measures, but for the moment, let the ranger shine. He is a "hero," after all.
|
I'm not certain of this without looking it up, but doesn't any precision based ranged ability (such as Precise Shot) require you to be within 30 feet of the target to get the benefit?
Even if it doesn't, I don't imagine that even Improved Precise Shot can defeat total cover. If there is no line of effect between the archer and a target, and the arrow can't pierce whatever is in between, then I don't see how the PC can expect to hit the target. At that point he may have to settle for readying an action to shoot the first target that peeks over the obstacle--and if the creatures are smart enough (or scared enough) to stay out of sight, then the PCs might be put in a situation where they have to find another solution or waste valuable time. Perhaps reinforcements will show up if the encounter stays a standoff for too long?
In any case, it seems to me that without magical aid or elaborate reaction plans, the archer will have total concealment against the guards. I'd suggest just accepting that and letting the guards react as best they can: the arrows are visible, even if the archer isn't, so have the guards start aiming attacks at the squares from which the arrows originate. Eventually they should get lucky, though it may be too late for them to recover by the time they get this invisible guy pinned down. That's OK, IMO. If the player got his chance to shine and the plot moves forward, all is good.
If the player starts abusing this tactic at every opportunity, eventually the circumstances should turn against him in one or more of the ways others have described. (Creatures with scent, blind-fighting, invisibility detection spells, truesight, detect thoughts, obscurement, glitterdust, etc, are all valid options that the PC(s) should expect to come into play against them now and then.
If this one PC and this tactic are making the game less fun for other players, then you should probably speak with the player and come to a solution together that gives other players a chance to shine as well.
Finally, one factor that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: ammunition. Track how many arrows your archer is using, and let him run out. Most players I know neglect to track their characters' inventory that precisely, so if you ever want your PCs to realistically run out of ammo, you're probably going to have to keep track of it yourself.
Eventually the archer may start hauling around a Bag of Holding with hundreds of quivers of arrows to fuel his trick (which would be a good sign that it has gotten out of hand, frankly) but until the player starts keeping track of his own ammunition, you're well within your rights to say "sorry, you just ran out of arrows" after a lot of shooting. This is especially true if the PC is using the manyshot or rapid shot feats, which should drain his ammo in half the normal time, if not faster.
Assuming these Ogres have sóme form of intelligence and know what magic does; (they're bound to have seen magic before) why not just hide out?
They are in a forest and all, trees aplenty. Just hide behind a tree, from where you can keep your eye on the 'prize' without opening yourself to enemy fire.
Ogri should know they don't die from one hit from a puny little bow, if they can either force the Ranger to move, they'll drain his invisibility, and the instance the object they're guarding moves -> *whack*
If they're somewhat smart Ogri (or at least one of them is) they could spill flour. These things are insanely powerful; they could hurl a 10lbs bag of flour with ease. Just see in what square the guy is, and give him a nice ghostly appearance.
Spilling a few gallons of water around the statue to see any footsteps better would also help make sure that no-one is going to steal the prize without them noticing.
Of course, it all depends on how smart these Ogri are, or what instructed them to guard the place.
But it can be done...
If your ogres have a few levels of barbarian they should have better listen than spot to help locate the ranger.
The enemy who placed the ogres to guard the artifact could have a very interesting surprise to ward off any thieves or betrayal by the ogres. Even if the ogres run the way might not be clear for the ranger.
Yes, I meant to point that out more clearly in my original post- forests give a penalty to Move Silently checks, which will give the ranger a slightly harder time of things.
Also, Improved Precise Shot negates any concealment or cover bonus of less than "total," so an invisible creature, or one completely behind a wall, still can't be shot (at least, not very well).
And yes, with 8 levels in fighter, these aren't run of the mill ogres. Even if their Intelligence and Wisdom scores are the same as any other ogre's, they've obviously got more experience than their normal kin (that's what gives them the levels, you know?). Thus, they shouldn't be completely unprepared. I recommend worg or dire wolf guard dogs.
Regarding parties tracking their own ammo, all my players have always done this reliably since Day 1. They typically walk around with approximately three quivers worth of arrows (I rule that more than that is overly cumbersome), and often restock, but they do track them well. The DM has a lot to do, and maintaining paperwork that the players are more than capable of handling is not one of those things. It's a sign of common respect and courtesy for the players to at least take that much responsibility in running the game.
As for the multiclass rules and skills, I was completely unaware of the rule. I was under the impression that the multiclass rules regarding skills were much more... convoluted. However, immensely curious to find out more about this possible simplification of the rules that had so vexed me in the past, so I lept over to my PHB and looked it up.
The maximum ranks the ogres can put in Spot remains as if they were a class skill, but the skill points spent are still on a 2-for-1 ratio when taking classes for which Spot isn't a class skill (such as fighters). Not as simple as I'd hoped, but far more logical than what I'd been doing (which now that I think about it, I'm not sure exactly what I did think the rules for multiclass skills were).
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Just HOW high is the ranger’s Hide bonus?
+28 (15 ranks, +6 Dex, +5 (cloak), +2 Stealthy feat)
I clearly didn't look into these ogres very well because I was unaware that ogres had racial levels. I usually just make a basic character, add the stat boosts and abilities of being an ogre, and give it class levels, adjusting the CR accordingly.
The dinosaurs and worgs are good ideas, I didn't really think about guard animals.
The bags of flour wouldn't work in my opinion. Invisibility states that any item the character picks up also becomes invisible... so, while he may be covered in flour, the flour would be invisible also. Dust of Appearance is something else entirely, though.
|
|
I am in a hurry so I just quick read the other posts so please forgive me if my post is redundant. If the Ogres in question have missile weapons do they not get to shoot at the square they think he is in with the usual 50/50 miss chance? It would be a really good story twist if the Ogres did have mounts that were suddenly spooked. I would also like to say, the Ogres are totally screwed and would be better served if they would just start digging holes so that they could save some friendly peasant the job of burying them.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I am in a hurry so I just quick read the other posts so please forgive me if my post is redundant. If the Ogres in question have missile weapons do they not get to shoot at the square they think he is in with the usual 50/50 miss chance?
No, they would need to beat his sniping Hide check in order to target his square to get the 50% miss chance. That's the whole point of sniping. Now, if he were just taking full attack actions with invisibility, sure, but he's being pretty smart with the sniping thing.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
1. What's the caster level on that ring? If the ogres can run/hide long enough, the 1 round/level improved invisibility will simply wear off, thus forcing normal Hide checks.
2. Why are you worried about him making Hide checks after shooting? He's still invisible, which sort of removes the need for those checks. Oh, and you mentioned the Natural 1 or 20 clause- doesn't apply to skill checks. Only saves and attacks.
1) Caster level on the ring is 12th (the party wizard crafted it for him). They'd have to run pretty damn far to escape this elf's range. +3 distance longbow with the Far Shot and Improved Far Shot feats. Improved Precise Shot means that they'd need FULL cover/concealment for it to matter and that's not easy to find as a Large creature in a forest.
2) See my last post about why this is intelligent. The player took the idea from an NPC I made who did the same thing to them in a campaign last year.
|
The bags of flour wouldn't work in my opinion. Invisibility states that any item the character picks up also becomes invisible... so, while he may be covered in flour, the flour would be invisible also. Dust of Appearance is something else entirely, though.
?
From the SRD --
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
If he was covered in flour, I don't see how he would be able to "tuck" the flour into his clothing.
|
|
This is all rather interesting. Here are a couple of my thoughts.
If this is such a valuable item, why are the guards (whatever they are) just standing out in the open? They are just asking to die.
I don't know that I would allow a ring of improved invisibility. Improved invisibility is a really powerful item simply for many of the situations you are presenting.
If the item is that valuable, there should be some magic wards around the entrance -- either subject intruders to a dispel magic or an invisibility purge at the very least. Fairy fire is another option to use as some kind of magic ward.
Mundane traps don't have to make spot checks for invisibility. You could have a spray of arrows/bolts in a designated area. You could have a number of pit traps with poison spikes in them. You could have other various trip wires with nets or other attack forms. Think the first Predator movie.
Having an ogre cleric or adept or favored soul to aid guarding a valuable artifact is not out of the question at all.
As was mentioned before, if the archer is truly attacking from a great distance away, the ogres should hide until the attacker comes back to investigate or finish the job. Ogres can retreat just as well as anyone else.
Basically, the guards should be commensurate with what they are guarding and the guards should have a logical retreat plan in case they come across something that they can't handle directly.
At least these are my initial thoughts.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
From the SRD --
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Hmmm... is it possible that the SRD differs from the PHB, then? I'm almost 100% sure the wording in the PHB simply states 'items picked up by a creature become invisible.' I just looked at this a few days ago. Maybe my memory is degenerating.....
If bags of flour are usable for things like this, why even bother with dust of appearance or glitterdust spells?
Just be glad it's a Ranger doing the sniping, not a rogue. Multiple Sneak Attacks from invisibility do not a happy DM make.
Sneak attacks have to be done from within 30ft range, so that'd probably nót be a very good idea.
Dust of appearance makes things visible, flour just makes them cough and gives them an outline. Besides, it's easier to target a spell (specially at range) then a 10lb bag of flower.
You should try tossing one, and making it land in a 5ftx5ft circle at some 50 paces. It's not easy. And then try again with the bag opened, so it actually spills the contents...
But for an Ogre it should be a piece of cake.
Ow, and make the Ogres stomp out the fire. If the Ranger can't see, he can't hit them. If it's night and he's at range, he'll have a hard time spotting anything. Even if he's an elf.