As some of you may have read elsewhere, one of my PC's has a favorite tactic of Improved Grapple.
He came up with a new twist this week that I had a hard time ajudicating on the fly. I wanted to run the situation past a few good DM's...
Player begins a grapple with an enemy, in the next round he states "ok, now I want to throw this goblin into the goblin in the next square."
It sounds simple enough, but of course it's not in the list of standard grapple moves. In fact, there is no legal move that even comes close so that I could fudge a quick rule and move on.
My final judgement was to say "no, you can't do that until you cause the goblin to drop into negative hit points. After that you can use him as an improvised weapon and toss him."
By the next round the goblin wizard had called off his troops and the PC was forced to let him go, so we never really resolved the issue.
Has anyone else had players come up with similar "out of the box" plans that require snap judgements? If anyone has a ruling on that specific scenario I would love to hear it.
Thanks - Roth
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I don't know what the answer would be officially*, but I always considered grappling to be 2 people/creatures trying to grab, squeeze, mangle and rend each other. I would think that a goblin being grappled would try not to be heaved away because that could hurt really badly depending on what he would land on. I would think the goblin would be holding on for dear life, trying desperately to not loss his grip on the dude for fear of being tossed, stabbed, torn, etc..
It is hard to throw something that won't let go of you. I think you did a good on-the-fly ruling. OK now everyone who disagrees with my assessment, post now. ///Glares in Sebastian's direction, then glances over to Takasi///
*disclaimer*
BTW- at the very least I would say he needed to have the goblin pinned.
FH
well, i would say he has to win the grapple the next round; win a str test by enough to have strength left over to throw; then apply the minus for unskilled throw; and another minus for unaerodynamic missile, big minus if he is unwilling and wiggling around; more of a minus if the goblin has acrobatics and or can make a dex check to twist in midair to help miss. Then a minus for throwing into combat; a bonus as the said missile is fairly good sized so he probably will hit both combatants; make the throw; have the targets make a spot check to see if they see it coming; roll dex checks to see if they avoid the missle or any applicable skill or feat; if hit; a str check to remain standing; a goblin at what; 60 pls; will probably bounce off a 300 lb warrior (considering all the gear this is quite likely). Unless the goblin has spikey armor or something; he probably doesnt inflict or take much damage - maybe a d6 plus str bonus with a reflex save for half. But really, if goliath or some such is gonna throw a goblin; that goblin should get frequent flyer miles cause he is going somewhere. Throwing a guy of neary equal size; well, you might get a foot or two; and the guy may land on his feet.
if this happens more than once; consider also that goblins are sneaky and crafy fighters; dirty at that and entirely expendable; if you try to throw a goblin; he might let you to make an airborne attack against the target of whomever he is thrown at if one is nearby and he can twist or alter the trajectory; maybe push off from the grappler :)
I agree with you Fakey, I just like to plug in the modifiers so we can all look at them; I can explain why I picked each and didnt even mention ones for terrain; low ceiling; whatnot.
There's Great Throw from OA, and Mighty Blow from the MM. I would say it would work if:
1. The goblin was pinned or otherwise helpless (tasha's any one?)
2. Use 1/2 light encumbrance as a guide to how much one can throw without penalty. 15 lbs for an average human is a alot to chuck.
3. The goblin is of course an improvised weapon, with a 5' range increment at best.
4. If it is conscious, the goblin gets to make Tumble, Jump, or Dex checks to either miss or do/ take less damage.
But hey, its fun, so why not just fudge it and make up the rules later?
Unless of course he has a level or more in monk, isn't throwing from a grapple a standard martial arts move?
My 2c
Okay, here's my take on it:
1) A pin must be established. If the enemy in question (hereafter referred to as the victim) can still maneuver in grapple, he's too squirmy to be thrown.
2) After establishing a pin, the prospective thrower may attempt a throw on his next successful grapple check. An opposed Strength check is made, with a +4/-4 modifer for every size a creature is away from Medium. A creature using more than two hands in the grapple receives a +2 bonus on this roll, and creatures that are exceptionally stable receive their +4 bonus. (This is hereafter referred to as the throw check)
3) Success indicates the victim has been thrown. The victim is thrown a foot per point of difference between the opposed rolls, rounded down to a multiple of 5 (minimum 5 feet). Failure ends this throw attempt (but the victim remains pinned).
3) For every 10 feet the victim is thrown (including vertical movement, of course), he takes damage as normal for falling. The victim is counted as making a charge (without the bonus to hit, but with the penalty to AC and the extra damage from spears set against charges). The victim is prone upon landing.
4) If attempting to throw the victim at an opponent, the thrower makes an attack roll for using an improvised thrown weapon. The victim must be within the thrower's light load, and deals 1d6 points of damage for every 200 pounds of the victim's weight. The range increment is 5 feet, and maxes out at 25 feet. This works with the throw check - If the thrower wishes to fling his victim onto an enemy 15 feet away, he must exceed his victim's opposed Strength check by at least 15 points, and then succeed on a ranged attack roll with a -10 penalty (-4 for improvised weapon, -6 for 3 range increments). If the thrower would have flung his victim 50 or more feet away based on the throw check, an additional 1d6 points of damage are dealt per 50 feet (again, as normal for falling objects).
I think that covers everything.
TK
EDIT: Oh, and I agree with Ender - the victim should be allowed to make a Tumble check to negate damage as normal for falling - though if thrown at an opponent, I think that opponent would still take damage if the thrower made a successful attack roll.
Wow, great answers guys. Thanks for the input.
Some of the players had mentioned something about if the victim was pinned they thought the throw could be made. I may modify my ruling and allow the "pinned throw" next time.
If anyone else has thoughts on this subject they are more than welcome. :-)
-Roth