I see from some quick calculations that the treasure values are right on for the adventures released so far.
My question is this: in the third and fourth adventure, there is quite literally NO ability for the PCs to sell the loot they acquire. Between magic items, art objects, and raw coinage, the PCs literally have thousands of GP just "doing nothing". As of the moment, in my game, the only reason the PCs aren't under geared for their level, despite having the appropriate "wealth", is because the cleric took craft magic arms and armor. Even then, they are still barely at the level of gear they should be, and by the end of Here There Be Monsters, they will be well below it again. I know that the path wouldn't be designed to screw over a party without an item crafter, because that would be, well, lame.
How are these issues dealt with? Will the PCs have access to proportionaly wider selections of magical loot to compensate for the inability to sell and buy it? Will Farshore have a GP limit in excess of the one it's population would acsribe it per DMG rules? And what of later on, when the PCs take to the seas, mundane and abyssal?
I trust the Dungeon crew to have a solution in the campaign for these problems. Im just irked with myself for not seeing it yet. Help and advice on how to deal with the gear/loot/wealth/transaction issues is greatly appreciated.
Creative Director
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This is going to be an issue in Savage Tide, and in a way, it's on purpose. By the time the PCs get to Farshore, they'll certainly have a large amount of gear that they might not have a use for, and Farshore's certainly not big enough to sell it off and buy stuff that they CAN use.
The concept of being able to cash in magic items and then buy exactly what your character needs is new to D&D with 3rd edition. It's cool in that it lets you customize your character to the way you want, but it unfortunately tends to lead to characters that end up only having the same gear over and over, campaign after campaign. In earlier editions of the game, the gear you discovered while adventuring played a MUCH stronger role in determining what your character was about, rather than the other way around. Savage Tide is attempting to capture a bit of this.
To be honest, this is the only part of the campaign that I'm nervous about working out. Has D&D become too dependent on PCs being able to completely customize their characters with the exact gear they want?
Once the PCs reach Farshore in the 5th adventure path, we include several tips on how to deal with this problem. In addition, we've built in a fair amount of elasticity between (and in some cases during) adventures so that PCs who can craft items can do so.
One thing that I STRONGLY suggest DMs do, though (and this is said in the fifth adventure), is to customize the treasures in Savage Tide. If you have a fighter who takes Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with the greatsword, and the adventure gives out a +1 shock warhammer... change it into a +1 shock greatsword. If you have a wizard who's specialized in evocation spells and can't cast necromancy spells, turn that wand of vampiric touch into a wand of lightning bolt. By adjusting some (not all!) of the treasure in the adventures to better match your PCs, you avoid the problem to a large extent of "useless magic." Some might cry out that adjusting treasure like this is making things too easy for the PCs, but I strongly disagree. It's much better to hand out treasure that your PCs want and feel good about discovering, I think, than to hand out truly random loot only to have the PCs cash it in at a faceless magic store to buy what they really want.
In any event, once you have PCs capable of teleporting or word of recalling or transporting via plants or shadow walking or wind walking... the problem of not having anywhere to sell loot becomes less of a problem.
Anyway, yes. This is something that we've been aware of from the start of the campaign, and it's something that we're attempting to address as the adventures go on. Time will tell if we did a good job.
Thanks for the explanation and tips, James; I knew my faith in the Dungeon crew was not misplaced. I probably wont institute my "emergency solution", and will just see how the campaign's money issues unfolds, but I'll post it here, in case others can use it.
I was thinking of having the cabin boy, Tavey, actually start taking levels of artificer. He did "bond" to the sorceror, who both brought his own alchemy lab on board and went to the trouble of making continual flame lamps for the ship and everything. Since cabin boys are rarely ever paid attention to, but get a lot of minor repair and cleaning duties, I took the idea of "a craftsman who works with magic but can never work magic himself" and went from there. I pictured him hanging up the continual flame lanterns and being secretly delighted that he could change the color. (Not in the rules per se, but a decent idea of discovering artificer powers)
If the PCs want to retain his services in the long run, they'll need to take leadership. But the fifth level artificer ability of "draining" magic items of their XP to use in other craftings would seriously change the treasure dynamic.
Anyhow, thanks again for the prompt and eloquent response to another of my nit-picking questions, James! I (and I beleive the rest of the Dungeon community) appreciate it very much!
I'm hoping this doesn't count as 'thread hijacking' - profuse apologies if it is...
I've decided that I need to get an artificer either in my party, or accessible through an NPC like Black Bard is proposing. My problem is that I can't find the full specs of this class anywhere.
I have Dragon #316, but it only has an abbreviated excerpt of the class. I've been to four different bookstores in the last two days, and nobody has the Eberron Campaign Setting in stock. There doesn't appear to be an online version of it at WOTC's website, and my other internet searches have been fruitless so far. Needless to say, it's kind of hard to sell the idea of a new core class to a player when you can't even show them the whole thing.
Does anybody out there know if there is a full version of the artificer posted on the internet that could be referenced? I need to get this idea ready to present by this weekend, and I've evidently painted myself into a corner.... :(
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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Does anybody out there know if there is a full version of the artificer posted on the internet that could be referenced? I need to get this idea ready to present by this weekend, and I've evidently painted myself into a corner.... :(
Since Eberron is closed content, I don't know about finding it online.
Here's a simplification for NPC usage: Assume that the artificer has all item creation feats that he could take, were he a wizard of the same level, (Craft Magic Arms + Armor at 3, Craft Wand at 5) as a class feature and not a feat. He can emulate (via Use Magic Device) any spell, if his UMD (a class skill, btw) can hit the DC for the spell (20 + Casterlevel) if he go a ten. Ergo, a modifier of 11 to make a 1st level wand of magic missile. He gets a +2 on it, btw.Then, if you want to make him a special item creator, he can make items faster (25% less time) or cheaper (25% less gold) - choose one.
Many other features (the artificer's craft reserve is essential free XP for the item, some metamagic class features) are designed for use as a PC, not as a NPC resource for the PCs to use.
I agree with James. 3.5 has gotten too liberal with how magic is treated. It used to be exciting to find a Sword +1, now it's ho hum. D&D is now almost Monty Haul by default.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion so please feel free to disagree, just don't flame me for it. Thanks.
I've been to four different bookstores in the last two days, and nobody has the Eberron Campaign Setting in stock. There doesn't appear to be an online version of it at WOTC's website, and my other internet searches have been fruitless so far. Needless to say, it's kind of hard to sell the idea of a new core class to a player when you can't even show them the whole thing.
Dalesman, I might be able to help you with the Artificer class.
Send me an email: chris [underscore] slater [at] telus [dot] net
somnambulant.
I've been to four different bookstores in the last two days, and nobody has the Eberron Campaign Setting in stock. There doesn't appear to be an online version of it at WOTC's website, and my other internet searches have been fruitless so far. Needless to say, it's kind of hard to sell the idea of a new core class to a player when you can't even show them the whole thing.Dalesman, I might be able to help you with the Artificer class.
Send me an email: chris [underscore] slater [at] telus [dot] net
somnambulant.
Sending now, Somnambulant - look for an email from daehith(at)msn(dot)com.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Some nifty stuff about magic items using a modern capitalitist worldview.
Interesting stuff.
This is somewhat offtopic, but I think the current magic item system is an absolute piece of crap and one of the worst elements of the game. It's basically a point buy system bolted onto the game, is a pain in the ass to dial down or dial up, and assumes a completely liquid magic item market. Whenever you make changes, you risk weakening the players, but if you don't make changes, you risk weakening believability.
I don't know how many times I've almost said, "You know what? Almost every other rpg on the market gets by without a heavy emphasis on equipment and cash. The next campaign I run, I'm scrapping the magic item system altogether." But then I start thinking about the ramifications onp arty power and the niftiness of finding new magic items and I blink and don't do it.
Anyway, very interesting to know that ST is designed specifically to avoid the magic marketplace. Nice experiment.
A big set of the problems with magic items I find is an adherence to the rules in misproportionate levels. In the magic item section, under cost, it specifically states that the prices reflected are the bare minimum said items go for, and that specific sellers may charge significantly more.
I usually have magic items go on a barter system, with other magic items being the only "real" value. Gems are good too, and some people might stoop to accepting copious amounts of coin, but who wants to make themselves a target for theives?
..or take a lesson from the mughal emperor... Akbar or Jahangir, cannot quite remember, who carted off all their precious metals into the dungeons of their keep at Agra.
There, melted them all over into huge blocks, making it impossible to steal them.. ;)
...then pull a "central bank", and issue paper money guaranteed by this gold and silver. Except you issue more paper than there is metal. And eventually take the paper off its precious metal footing.. lol
All the while keep on issuing more paper.
Heck, make it illegal for people to own gold and silver..
I love the lack of Monty Hauling in this campaign. I am tweeking a few of the items, so at least most items fit someone in the party. But I do not like the way 3.5 makes it seem like there's a magic WalMart in major towns where any and every item is available. It cheapens the whole system and I usually avoid this approach. Thanks you, Dungeon.