Thinking about this as I stat up the opening encounter for next weeks game and I think this might also vary depending on the books one is using and maybe heavily on what level the characters are. I'm finding as levels rise the encounters take longer in real life but are shorter in terms of actual number of rounds that take place.
As an example I'm stating up a double wand wielder (one of the reasons I thought of this thread - I'm finally using the build that started my and Zherog's argument in the first place) and I'm looking over what I should get my double wand wielder. My eye strays across the Belt of Battle. This is an amazing item in any circumstances but it dawns on me that the double wand wielder will really benefit from it. Not sure what spells my double wand wielder will use but two wands of fireball could be real cool. That way my double wand wielder can open combat by using his his double wand wielder feat (along with reckless wand wielder and Wand Mastery to get this into higher levels) to really hammer the party right out the gate.
I figure his first round goes something like this (all presuming my players don't kill him before he can do anything)
fireball#1 and fireball#2
Then he uses a swift action to activate the Belt of Battle
Uses 3 charges to give himself a full round action and...
fireball#3 and fireball#4 go off.
Now my players have Belts of Battle as well and they'll use them without hesitation on the first round of combat against something like a double wand wielder so if they go first they may take him out of the picture before he can drop 40 d6 worth of fire damage on them.
My point is that this has more and more been my experience with combat as things get into the mid to higher levels. Unbelievable amounts of carnage take place on round 1 of a big fight and round 2 on is more about evaluating whats left after the smoke clears from round 1 then an actual continuation of what went before. My players have pretty much no choice but to take out the BBEG in three rounds or less. They won't be alive to see the 4th.
Zherog and myself touched on what I think might be an interesting topic on the Do Touch Spells Stack thread.
How long do your significant stated villains live after they meet the party? Do they usually have a really good escape plan and harass the party repeatedly during an adventure or are they likely to take a fall early on?
Zherog felt differently and I'll post his comment regarding that here as well.
I'm definitely interested in finding out what other DMs have found in this regards.I don't necessarily think we're talking past one another; but I do think we have different expectations for an encounter.
You expect what seems to be a major bad guy to live for three rounds, tops. I expect him to live much longer - because with rare exceptions, my NPCs aren't suicidal. They have a desire to live, not die.
I've seen some dm's treat their villains as really very stupid and by that I'm talking about dragons, they seem to think a CE black dragon thats holding a shrine worth of prisoners isn't about to keep a deal for say 2 circlets even if its gets them what they want with little or no effort and puts one over the good guys.
I tend to run villains as being slightly more than two dimensional and given them a background to explain why they were doing what they doing and very rarely were they homocidal maniacs who killed without reason nor did evil deeds just for kicks as these to me are the province of those minor bad guys that the pcs can deal with knowing their true enemy is something far more menacing.
Anyway I hope I didn't wander too far off this thread!
Combats against "masterminds" generally last about as long as the minions hold out. In a stand-up fight without minions, most "fair fight" villians are going down in about 2-3 rounds. (Monte Cook actually dissects exactly why this is in an old Dungeoncraft column.) Minions change fights dramatically.
I agree that the "Evil Party of Adventures and/or monsters" (Linear Guild) approach works, and can lead to some tense fights. (I actually gave the recurring bad guy of Savage Tide three comrades-in-arms, "The Sasserine Skulls," working them into the early plot for use as needed later on.)
When it comes to whether or not the villians actually escape combat to live another day, I guess most of mine don't, but we go where the story and the dice take us. This leads to some unexpected survivors and casualties, but it keeps me guessing.
Combats against "masterminds" generally last about as long as the minions hold out. In a stand-up fight without minions, most "fair fight" villians are going down in about 2-3 rounds. (Monte Cook actually dissects exactly why this is in an old Dungeoncraft column.) Minions change fights dramatically.
I pretty much agree though there are obvous exceptions. I finally got to use my double wand wielder against my PCs and it pretty much played out just like this.
Players are ambushed in the city in the middle of a raging city wide fire. So the watch etc. are too busy to intervene plus a huge fire in the middle of a city makes a great backdrop for an adventure.
He's an evil bounty hunter gunning for the PCs as they have been messing with powerful evil groups (as good adventurers are wont to do). He's got two companions but they are attacking from the rear of the party (i.e. lack of minions directly blocking PCs).
Sadly my duel wand wielder lasted all of two rounds. The players pretty much decided this guy had to die right know. The players mage threw up wall of stone behind the party to slow up the rear attackers and the other 5 players all basically focused their attacks on him. A NPC with anything resembling the party's level just does not have much chance of holding on for an extended period of time. Buffs like stone skin helped but in the end the PCs can just deliver to much hp damage to a single creature in a couple of rounds unless AC is ungodly or there are layers of other defenses.
Interestingly the fight also displayed some of the reasons why a battle might go beyond 5 rounds as this one did. The Double Wand Wielders thuggish buddies consisted of a Half-Giant Barbarian with a phenominal number of hps and a truly brutal attack combo. This kept all but the highest AC players away from him and cost the players actions pulling back.
I also made a very cool Eldritch Knight. Decked him out in the heaviest armour known to man and threw feats on top of that to help the AC even more - he hit by using Arcane Strike - check that feat out its brokenly powerful and yet works much better in the hands of the DM then in the players hands. To utilize fully you want higher level spells and yet must go toe to toe - that means Eldritch Knight with high ACs, Spells exist only for really long buffs and to feed your melee attacks. No player makes a build like this - to specialized to be really effective.
Any way the PCs made a cardinal sin when fighting these two. They switched enemies mid fight. Having finally stripped this guy of 50% of his hps they switched to the much much easier to hit Half-Giant (who had phenominal amounts of hps) because they could not go toe-to-toe with these two and this guy had a huge AC that became preposterous against ranged attacks due to a crystal from MIC (+5 AC vs. ranged attacks). He also was layered with defenses to keep him going against various party tactics. They cast solid fog on him but he had a Third Eye Freedom. They tripped him but he had boots of agile leaping. They used some crazy spell that launched him into the air but he had a safewing emblem. They finally took him down but not before I managed to kill the parties Half-Celestial Paladin.
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Personally I would have elected two different wands if that were possible. Not being familiar with these feats and such I might not be able to do that. However, a Wand of Fireballs and a Wand of Chain Lightning would be a great combination. Should a PC be immune or resistant to one, it is unlikely s/he would be immune or resistant to the other.
Most combats break down to about 4 rounds per group. That is if the PCs are 10th level, then each grouping of badness that equals their level (tenth) will take about 4 rounds. As a GM I would plan on what the Villain does for those 4 rounds then worry about the extra rounds if they happen at all at the table.
As far as developing the villain... If the adventure has led up to the grand encounter with the villain then the background work has already been done and the PCs likely know some of the background so the villain is not flat. If they do not get to meet or lead up to the villain (Shackled City's Beholder in the first adventure- "A freakin BEHOLDER appears! Dude, we're first level!! You suck!!!") then the PCs don't know anything of the background and any development that won't be in front of the PCs is all fine and dandy for the GM, but the PCs will never see it and won't care.
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Well from a nongaming standpoint the bad guys in real life don't really last more than 3 rounds. Unless I am mistaken the average life span of a Heavy machine gunner is less than ten seconds after opening fire. So if we put that in game the BG has almost no time to live from the moment the battle starts. So he had better unload asap and hope like hell he hits something!
Personally I would have elected two different wands if that were possible. Not being familiar with these feats and such I might not be able to do that. However, a Wand of Fireballs and a Wand of Chain Lightning would be a great combination. Should a PC be immune or resistant to one, it is unlikely s/he would be immune or resistant to the other.
Yeah you can do that - I gave him fireball and confusion. Actually I had to cut back and redo my first build for this guy as it was a little to good.
Essentially two fireball wands and a belt of battle then load everything I could possibly find into inititive and hope he went first. If I had used that build and he went first or very high in the initiative order before the PCs could escape I could have pretty much pulled off a TPK or something damn close. Belt of Battle allows one to, once per day, use all its charges and gain another full round attack. Double Wand Wielders turn comes up - he launches two 10d6 fireballs, uses the belt of battle immediately and launches another 2 10d6 fireballs. Thats 40d6 or roughly 140 pts of damage - make 4 saving throws to reduce each individual fireball to half. I figure on average my players would have each taken about 105 points of damage before they could really do anything. Most of them would die right there. The Beefy Lizard Folk Fighter is the only one that would probably have lived and he'd be nearly dead. He might manage to run away before the two thugs go to him - maybe depending on how well he rolled initiative.
But like I said - I had to toss that build, to powerful for my 'I wish I was a munchkin' players.
'Course I mentioned the build after the fight - always good to remind your players that their wannabe munchkins are alive only out of the kindness of the DMs heart and that killing the a player's beloved Paladin character was not me being mean - actually I was being gentle with them...I love this game.
Well, the higher the villian is up on the food chain; the more eleborate the plan and the more survivable they are; my major mortal villains have been around going on 15 years now and have not yet been taken out and have met several parties, but no combat has ever ensued; mostly talk or one side or the other fled.
lowest food chain villians tend to last a round or two it seems in contrast.
I would say the average mortal villian makes a couple to a few appearances on average, I guess you would really have to be in the game to see why; most parties are faily gullible and most bad guys can confuse the issue and talk their way out or offer big cheese to the mice :) at least a time or two.
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oh yeah and a great spell for a higher level villain is Slow. You know the PCs never think about those lower level spells when they are much higher.
Our party was about lvl 17-19 and we fought this guy who used Slow on my fighter. Of course we had not encountered that is so long we dismissed preparing for something so simple. So, needless to say my fighter was taken right out of the battle as I could never catch the guy and attack him.
Since then, we never ever go anywhere without Haste prepared... we learned the hard way.
oh yeah and a great spell for a higher level villain is Slow. You know the PCs never think about those lower level spells when they are much higher.
Our party was about lvl 17-19 and we fought this guy who used Slow on my fighter. Of course we had not encountered that is so long we dismissed preparing for something so simple. So, needless to say my fighter was taken right out of the battle as I could never catch the guy and attack him.
Since then, we never ever go anywhere without Haste prepared... we learned the hard way.
It rarely ceases to amaze how often even seasoned GM's forget about simple little spells at the latter, higher-level stages of a campaign. Players are even worse about it as a general rule.
Funny that you mentioned slow specifically ... since if the BBEG of an encounter can fire off one spell to rain on the entire party's parade, his awe factor just went up a notch or two. ^_^
Problem with the low level standby spells at higher levels is that even those with nominally "weak" Save modifiers have by level 12 racked up save modifiers of app. +10 or better... before helpful buffs (my own warblade, level 7 has atm, through feats picked and only one multiclassing saves of F+8, Rf+11 and W+8, with a 32 point buy as teh base.... now, at level 12 they will be much higher..) - which means saves against Slow etc will only be failed like one third of the time under the best of circumstance.
That is, unless the villain isn't upped by some absurd stats (like the 34 charisma on the Death Knight St. Kargoth in Dungeon #150 - just to up his HP by some hundreds.... jeeez, that is just so.. <no comment> no use for the stat in his former existence, and no real reason why he should have it in undeath... but he needed some extra toughness so someone picked up the barel of parmesan ).
As a result,the villain will have to resort to save-less magics or even better resort to terrain modifications like walls, environmental changes ( fogs of all kinds come to mind) or other effects that affect the characters independetly of a roll under the players' control.
beyond that, I subscribe to the theory that a villain should by all means not react to the characters' actions , but make THEM react to his, seizing and keeping the iniative from the outset of the battle.
And ram it down their throats - after all, he/she/it did not become chief-menace-of-the-universe by being inefficent and easily beaten...
Problem with the low level standby spells at higher levels is that even those with nominally "weak" Save modifiers have by level 12 racked up save modifiers of app. +10 or better... before helpful buffs (my own warblade, level 7 has atm, through feats picked and only one multiclassing saves of F+8, Rf+11 and W+8, with a 32 point buy as teh base.... now, at level 12 they will be much higher..) - which means saves against Slow etc will only be failed like one third of the time under the best of circumstance.
'Course you can quicken them. They might be worthwhile if they are on top of another spell. Mages should also, in general, be taking things to up thgeir spells DC. There is, after all, not that much difference between a low level spells DC and a high level spells DC.
'Course you can quicken them. They might be worthwhile if they are on top of another spell. Mages should also, in general, be taking things to up thgeir spells DC. There is, after all, not that much difference between a low level spells DC and a high level spells DC.
just too bad there aren't actually many items that raise the spell-save DC. 'Veil of Allure' (from Sandstorm, but to enchantments only ) is one, otherwise there are only stat-enhancements, and those don't stack with enhancement-type buffs.
Oh, I forgot the 200k gp "tomes", but buying 5 wishes is cheaper (if either is even a viable option in a world - definitely not in mine. Cast your own wishes if you need them.... )Anything else I missed ?
My own mage character tends to hit oppostion in need of getting struck by some magic at all costs with repeat "enervations", but.... well that is sort of an overkill usually. otherwsie, Save-boni rise totally out of proportion to spell DCs in 3.5, under current multiclass rules. Not even mentioning monstrous' modifiers (looking at Big-D's save modifiers gives me the creeps....)
'Course you can quicken them. They might be worthwhile if they are on top of another spell. Mages should also, in general, be taking things to up thgeir spells DC. There is, after all, not that much difference between a low level spells DC and a high level spells DC.
just too bad there aren't actually many items that raise the spell-save DC. 'Veil of Allure' (from Sandstorm, but to enchantments only ) is one, otherwise there are only stat-enhancements, and those don't stack with enhancement-type buffs.
Oh, I forgot the 200k gp "tomes", but buying 5 wishes is cheaper (if either is even a viable option in a world - definitely not in mine. Cast your own wishes if you need them.... )
Anything else I missed ?My own mage character tends to hit oppostion in need of getting struck by some magic at all costs with repeat "enervations", but.... well that is sort of an overkill usually. otherwsie, Save-boni rise totally out of proportion to spell DCs in 3.5, under current multiclass rules. Not even mentioning monstrous' modifiers (looking at Big-D's save modifiers gives me the creeps....)
Yeah your right of course. I mean the wizard should do what he can - but at the end of the day if the spell must penetrate spell resistance or has a save then against any real opposition it may well not work. Wizard will just have to work around this and thems the breaks. Helps to keep the wizard in line if you nerf 90% of what they can do.
Yeah your right of course. I mean the wizard should do what he can - but at the end of the day if the spell must penetrate spell resistance or has a save then against any real opposition it may well not work. Wizard will just have to work around this and thems the breaks. Helps to keep the wizard in line if you nerf 90% of what they can do.
Hmm, a disconcerting attitude - given that caster's are already behind the curve with ragrd to contribution to combat in high-level play ( a sword can be swung again and again - but there is a finite number of spells/spell-slots / day for casters) I find the massive save modifiers at higher levels much of a deteriment. After all, a throughtfully built fighter will wallop any opponent for (weapon +12-20 points of damage) with 2-4 attacks connecting each round - I really fail to see that damage average on high-level casters, especially continously and without daily limits.
Support magic etc. for melees is abundant and almost omni-present - while effective supporting magic for casters can be counted in single digits. Almost all the physical problems ( illusion magic, flight. incorporealness etc. ) of melee-types can be helped or negated by magic from the casters - who cannot circumvent these problems for themselves, having instead to expend feats for them or pick up a prestigeclass, which then limits other character choices and feat availability.or, to put it this way - since about level 10, the "take-down-stroke" count in my STAP starts listing more and more in the melees' favour, despite by now three of five characters being offensive casters, including the alleged "damage-monster", a warmage. Because SR stops the entire damage from one source, and even it it fails, the target often enough packs a elemental resistance or immunity.... plus nice saves. There are even feats and ability who negate the entire damage from a magic attack with a successful save - but nothing comparable for melee damage....
While a melee attack only has to beat AC and then may suffer some reduction (which can be circumvented by equipment, not by character-design only ) from DR.
See any pattern ?
Problem with the low level standby spells at higher levels is that even those with nominally "weak" Save modifiers have by level 12 racked up save modifiers of app. +10 or better... before helpful buffs (my own warblade, level 7 has atm, through feats picked and only one multiclassing saves of F+8, Rf+11 and W+8, with a 32 point buy as teh base.... now, at level 12 they will be much higher..) - which means saves against Slow etc will only be failed like one third of the time under the best of circumstance.
That is, unless the villain isn't upped by some absurd stats (like the 34 charisma on the Death Knight St. Kargoth in Dungeon #150 - just to up his HP by some hundreds.... jeeez, that is just so.. <no comment> no use for the stat in his former existence, and no real reason why he should have it in undeath... but he needed some extra toughness so someone picked up the barel of parmesan ).
As a result,the villain will have to resort to save-less magics or even better resort to terrain modifications like walls, environmental changes ( fogs of all kinds come to mind) or other effects that affect the characters independetly of a roll under the players' control.beyond that, I subscribe to the theory that a villain should by all means not react to the characters' actions , but make THEM react to his, seizing and keeping the iniative from the outset of the battle.
And ram it down their throats - after all, he/she/it did not become chief-menace-of-the-universe by being inefficent and easily beaten...
Actually, the main use of Slow at high-level play is not to achieve the actual primary result (although if it does, that's gravy) but to get the 'automatically counters haste' benefit of that spell, slowing down foes and stripping out that additional best-bonus attack roll per round.
Hmm, a disconcerting attitude - given that caster's are already behind the curve with ragrd to contribution to combat in high-level play ( a sword can be swung again and again - but there is a finite number of spells/spell-slots / day for casters)
Well I'd say when it comes to high level play the idea that their is a finite number of spells per day is basically a non-issue for casters. Your not going to run out of spells even if your casting two a round. It just won't happen. You'll maybe run out of your highest level spells but except in the most extreme circumstances your just not going to cycle through all your spells. You have to many to run out.
I find the massive save modifiers at higher levels much of a deteriment. After all, a throughtfully built fighter will wallop any opponent for (weapon +12-20 points of damage) with 2-4 attacks connecting each round
I'd say more like 2 connecting each round. Generally your going to find that the oppositions AC is pretty high for major opponents, they often have things like displacement and DR. Your tail end attacks - the ones with -5 and -10 to hit are unlikely to work and as often as you get lucky and they do get through your going to get unlucky and an attack that has a 2/3rds chance of connecting is going to miss.
- I really fail to see that damage average on high-level casters, especially continously and without daily limits.
Support magic etc. for melees is abundant and almost omni-present - while effective supporting magic for casters can be counted in single digits. Almost all the physical problems ( illusion magic, flight. incorporealness etc. ) of melee-types can be helped or negated by magic from the casters - who cannot circumvent these problems for themselves, having instead to expend feats for them or pick up a prestigeclass, which then limits other character choices and feat availability.
The melee types can be boosted in varous ways but their also very vulnerable to being nerfed by enemy casters. This sort of thing works both ways.
...or, to put it this way - since about level 10, the "take-down-stroke" count in my STAP starts listing more and more in the melees' favour, despite by now three of five characters being offensive casters, including the alleged "damage-monster", a warmage. Because SR stops the entire damage from one source, and even it it fails, the target often enough packs a elemental resistance or immunity.... plus nice saves. There are even feats and ability who negate the entire damage from a magic attack with a successful save - but nothing comparable for melee damage....
While a melee attack only has to beat AC and then may suffer some reduction (which can be circumvented by equipment, not by character-design only ) from DR.See any pattern ?
Sure, and I agree basically with your conclusions. That said I think your very much in the minority - mention TOB and the first thing that its supporters will mention is that its neccisary that the fighter types be beefed up because mages are so much more powerful. I don't agree with that point of view in reality and I've noticed that my mage player has virtually given up on most forms of offencive magic as its too unreliable.
That said I definitely feel that a mage is an essential member of the party. A good mage or sorcerer does not need to blast the opposition to smithereens to significantly contribute the the parties success. They can significantly contribute to the parties success by casting spells that do not interact with either saves or SR. Spells like Wall of Stone, Teleport, Solid Fog, a wide range of calling and summoning spells. These spells will help the party by controlling the battlefield itself allowing the martial types to do their thing more effectively. Beyond this when things go completely fubar its the mage the players should be turning to to fix the problem - fixing problems is the mages job description - anyone can do hp damage but the mage can actually shape the environment and manipulate the laws of reality for the parties benefit. Ultimately I think this is actually a good thing - if the mage, on average did more hp damage then the martial types and had the ability to dramatically shape the conditions surrounding the battlefield as well I'd consider them to powerful. While I think their pretty close to just right if their best approach is to help the martial players make the opposition suffer from an acute case of being dead.
Of course Warmages can't effectively do this - I'm of the opinion their not a particularly useful class though as a backup mage their OK. When their spells do work they are pretty friggen impressive after all.
I find that most people complaining about a publication's alleged unbalanced-ness haven't either read the rules with any degree of afterthought or are notoriousl gripers, hehe
six years of playing online MMORPGs has also taught me, that most players consider their own class "underpowered" and others to be dramatically UBAR..... while conveniently overlooking any limitations, roleplaying necessities, mechanisms applicable or countermeasures.
As for mages.... well, given their alleged UBAR-ness, they tend to become pretty fragile and helpless at higher levels, except when tall tales are being spun.
Just my 2 cents
It's all in the build and, of course, the eyes of the beholder vikingson. :)
The crusader being 'test driven' in the STAP now is in for a world of hurt - there are some things maneuvers can't help a crusader with ... such as gaze attacks ... which they may well encounter this very next session...
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I've got a relatively "effed-up" main bad guy for our Eberron campaign I'm running...
The group got together due to Sending spells that they each recieved telling them that one of their parents (or uncle, brother, etc) was being honored in a small town because of how they had saved the town 20 years ago. Now that the former adventurers are all dead or missing, their next of kin have been contacted to be their as proxies at the ceremony, which involves a big unveiling of a carved darkwood statue showing all of the members of the former party.
So the new group gets thrown together and occasionally recieves another Sending from this barrister who contacted them, leading them to the town.
See, here's the deal.
The barrister is locked away in a basement, along with a house Sivis gnome who has the Greater Dragonmark that allows him to do a Sending once a day. They're being charmed to do the bidding of the main bad guy.
He's the one who got the new gang together. He's pissed at their ancestors who screwed up his plans the first time around and got him killed, so, he's decided to take it out on their decendents. It's personal to him. Of course, his main problem is that he hasn't been born yet. He's this misshapen fetus growing inside of one of the women in the town they're heading towards.
I decided that he's going to be a Daelkyr Half-Blood (Magic of Eberron), and I've added the Unholy Scion template (Heroes of Horror) to him. He also is a 9th level Totemist (Magic of Incarnum), and the cleric of the group is going to deliver him into the world at some point when the rest of the group is dealing with all sorts of other chaos that he's got going around them.
I love the idea of a member of the party being the person who actually brings the main bad guy into the world. MuHAH HAH HAH HAH!!!
What Unholy Scion does, is the fetus is extremely intelligent, aware and able to percieve things going on around him through his mother's senses from the moment he's conceived. He is also granted quite a repertoire of powers, all of which can be cast through his mother. Oh, and she has to do his bidding, because she's under a constant Charm Person spell.
And this is what I love. That a fetus has been manipulating them from inside the womb, that they will have been jerked around by this little bastard for 7 or 8 levels or so, and then they get to deliver this beautiful little baby into the world, and.. "AHHHHHHHHH! Get it off my FAAAAAACE!!! Olladra, SAVE ME!!!"
... While the world is going to hell around them.
And because of his Unholy Scion powers, and some symbiotes, and being a Totemist, he's going to be prepped for the fight the moment he clears the womb. His DEX & Str are going to be crap, but he's still going to be a Tiny sized raving maniac who can use any of his Scion powers through his mother, even after his birth.
And he makes sure that he's delivered in a room that has a small enough crack in the floors that he can slurp away after they've hit him enough times that he needs to escape, and then the next time the encounter him, he'll be attached to a Varak (MM 4) as a Symbiont creature (Savage Species), and then they get to deal wih him again...
And when they finally corner him someday, they're going to have to decide what to do. Kill a baby? Even one that's as about as evil as they come?
I just realized how much I suck, after having read what I just typed.
Wow.
I almost feel guilty.
Almost.
- Rebis
Lol, balance, in this game; not likely; just have fun and forget about balance between classes; it is hopeless. To say we who believe this havent read the rules is a very strained arguement. As in any game like this one; there is always going to be a few best classes, few best feats, few most necessary skill and so on; a balanced game would not be like that as there would be balance between such things as feats so no one feat would be necessarily better than any other. As for notorious griping; well, I would like to hear a well thought out arguement that the game is balanced; any arguement I have heard that the game is inherently balanced so far is so full of holes it is like trying to bail water with a seive. The way I see it; the gm has to bring balance to the game or it does not exist, but then, this has always been true. Any class or race can be balanced to any persons game just by adding simple things like gear, henchmen, followers, organizations, and out of combat influence. So maybe the Moon Mage isnt going to blow you up; maybe it is not a good player class, but that doesnt mean it isnt effective. Take a look at your own game; count the books that you play with and the classes that people are playing; go back a few years and look at all the classes nobody would touch with a 10ft pole - that was once in pc standard gear for adventuring - now try to come up with an arguement of why these classes that nobody finds attractive are balanced to the ones people do play; throw in some statistics to jaz it up; maybe a graph or who; heck a whole powerpoint presentation. Now consider favorite classes at various levels, I have heard a few decent arguements, in the classical sense, that classes vary in balance at differing levels so as to create an atmosphere whereas the power in a group shifts between players ,which can of course be offset or increased by gear. Also, a discussion on spells would take months; sheesh, spell effectiveness varies like wind direction; though I agree that a plethora of spells have been gimped from 2nd ed or even 1st; I still think mages are pleanty powerful at any level, but that takes us to the whole idea of saving throws which can make all the difference to whether a spell is effective or not. Balanced, I think not; workable, usable - sure, I dont like to think of this game as centered all around rules and would rather have a player not worry about balance at all and just roleplay their character well and let me as the gm balance things out.
sigh,
havent thought about balance,
meh.
hehe first time I ever used meh; hope i used it right.
I find that most people complaining about a publication's alleged unbalanced-ness haven't either read the rules with any degree of afterthought or are notoriousl gripers, hehe
six years of playing online MMORPGs has also taught me, that most players consider their own class "underpowered" and others to be dramatically UBAR..... while conveniently overlooking any limitations, roleplaying necessities, mechanisms applicable or countermeasures.
As for mages.... well, given their alleged UBAR-ness, they tend to become pretty fragile and helpless at higher levels, except when tall tales are being spun.
Just my 2 cents
<--- gets off his soapbox, nods, waves, and ports back to the untitled thread.
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after many readings I do agree that BBEGs run bythe book are often little more than cannon fodder . My solution; first' rampup the HP to 75%of HD or more if party is larger than 4 (my group has six).second add potions to the arsenal , if tghe players get them they are one use not disrupting balance , typically Bulls Strength, Bears endurance , or Armor can adjust the outcome slightly. @ higher levels go to 100% of HD and Add some minor magic such as a rinmg of fire resistance to use against a heavy fire throwing mage.Also (free plug to Wizards )the magic item compendium has bunches of new minor magic items to trhow PC's for a loop. one last note if a BBEG KNOWS this is his last stand why not toss an explosion or collapsing passage that traps his enemies in a stony grave with him?
It sure appears that so many people have not read one of the first lines in the monster manuals that states that the monsters therein are the weakest of their kind. Unless your pc are also the weakest of their kind; then your monsters are to weak on out of balance for their CR.
It sure appears that so many people have not read one of the first lines in the monster manuals that states that the monsters therein are the weakest of their kind. Unless your pc are also the weakest of their kind; then your monsters are to weak on out of balance for their CR.
Well the Monster Manual is telling you that the Monsters can be advanced, IMO. There are obviously rules for making them stronger but not rules really for making them weaker.
That said if you make them stronger by following the guidelines set out in the Monster Manual you tend to also increase their CR.
Beyond this the monsters are pretty much designed with 'standard issue' players in mind. Thats players with a 25 point buy and probably not min-maxed.
This does raise something of a conundrum if you choose to have more potent PCs. If their point buy is significantly better, if their hps are better, if their choosing classes and races from a wide assortment of books that are boosting their abilities all of this makes your PCs more powerful vis a vis the monsters which in turn forces the DM to either boost the power level of the monsters they are facing or in some other manner make the monsters more potent.
The problem is that if you boost the monsters power level you increase the XP the players are getting really more or less for free. Thats fine if you want level advancement to go even faster but its pretty fast even under the current system, having the PCs skyrocket up a level after only two or three sizable fights might well be seen as much to fast for many DMs - after all it often seems like the PCs just made a level, like, three rooms ago and now their going to jump another one?1?
One handy tip I have noticed with the XP system. If you raise the CR of a creature by 2 it doubles its XP. That obvously works in reverse as well. If you figure you let your players make PCs that are a bit too powerful you can pretty easily rebalanced things by halving the XP they get and pitting them against creatures of about 2 CRs more powerful then the ones they would normally face.
In general I would mix the systems up a bit. If you use some kind of a method that increases your PCs hps I'd do something mathematically equivalent to all monsters. I'd also generally look over all of their feat choices and spell choices. If the PCs have access to books so do you and swapping around feats and spells is fairly easy and provides a fair bit of bang. Lots of monsters seem to have alertness - its an OK feat but especially with creatures with huge spot and listen there are better choices out there.
For encounters with creatures with class levels or with monsters that are important enough to have names I'd do the above giving them more hps and swapping out spells and feats but I'd also give them the equivalent of the PCs point buy. The Monster Manual shows how to apply the elite array. You can make a 'super elite array' for any point buy and just slot that in instead of the elite array. For example an Enhanced Elite Array for a 36 point buy might well be +8, +6, +4, +0, +0, -2. If your players have a 36 point buy then their important opponents should as well.
try reading the first few pages of the manual again and see if that changes your mind; to me it means that these monsters are given with the lowest stats; skills, hps, ac, and little or no gear; all of which you can upgrade rather than add more size or hit dice. There is nothing wrong with having some orcs or hobgoblins in leather and some in plate armor or some with magic items without changing their hd for example.
try reading the first few pages of the manual again and see if that changes your mind; to me it means that these monsters are given with the lowest stats; skills, hps, ac, and little or no gear; all of which you can upgrade rather than add more size or hit dice. There is nothing wrong with having some orcs or hobgoblins in leather and some in plate armor or some with magic items without changing their hd for example.
I'll generally agree that you can give monsters that use equipment different equipment, within reason, and not bother with changing the CR. Though that can pretty quickly spin off into some place rather absurd.
The danger is the CR 10 monster with absurd numbers of hps. Now if I take that monster and put it in full plate barding and change the AC from a fairly reasonable (for a 10th level party) AC of 25 to an extremely difficult AC of 33 can I reasonably claim that the CRs are identical? I don't really think so.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The danger is the CR 10 monster with absurd numbers of hps. Now if I take that monster and put it in full plate barding and change the AC from a fairly reasonable (for a 10th level party) AC of 25 to an extremely difficult AC of 33 can I reasonably claim that the CRs are identical? I don't really think so.
You're right. In published adventures (none of which I can recall right now) I think I've seen CRs get a bump if the critter has an unusually high HP or better than average equipment, or some combination thereof.
They're just plain deadlier.
do you bump your parties CR if they have good armor or weapons or other gear? Whatever you do you should do for both and adjust accordingly.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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do you bump your parties CR if they have good armor or weapons or other gear? Whatever you do you should do for both and adjust accordingly.
Yeah, which gets us into that endless discussion over game balance and sticking to treasure tables, etc. etc.
I see both of your points - if a party has outrageous equipment, they are going to breeze through "standard" CR monsters appropriate to their "normal" level.
But, conversely, if you have an "average" party and pit them against a super-monster, you have to realize that the monster is inherently more dangerous.
It's all part of the ebb and flow of the game. You just have to adjust accordingly.
do you bump your parties CR if they have good armor or weapons or other gear? Whatever you do you should do for both and adjust accordingly.
Well technically I think we would actually be bumping the players level adjustment not CR, don't really think players have a CR - at least not one that interacts with the XP system.
But in the end we are not that far apart in our theories. My players have roughly speaking 75% of max hps - so my monsters do as well.
My PCs have better then a 25 point buy - so monsters with class levels or ones I have have named (including Dragons) get a kind of upgraded elite array (dragons with enhanced elite array or freaken nasty).
My players equipment is pretty much spot on for their level so I usually leave my monsters equipment more or less alone - except that my players have access to the MIC, so their opposition does as well (great book for NPCs, the MIC - loaded with cheap stuff to keep bad guys fighting - Third Eye Freedom gets special mention - half my bad guys have one of those).
My players have access to a fair number from which to choose feats and spells - so I often swap out monsters feats and spells for stuff from other books.
My players have access to lots of books to choose races and classes - these books are open to my bad guys as well but swapping races and classes for adventures is a lot of work - I rarely swap races and classes, instead I halve the XP my players get (equivalent of a +2 level adjustment).
In the end I think I'm a little tough on my players. Many of their benefits I give to the bad guys as well and yet I still dock them XP - plus I don't allow them to bring characters back from the dead nor do I allow anything that circumvents a character being dead - so you can't roll back the clock if a character dies - the spell just fails.
That said I'm not sure this is actually being mean in the grand scheme of things. My experience with raise dead type magic is it often costs a fortune. Players that use it a lot start to really drop behind the wealth by level curve. Bring a whole new character in looses one a level but the XP system is such that you mostly catch up after a few levels. Furthermore a character that is built mid campaign is generally specifically designed to deal with the kind of challenges that the campaign presents - meaning more effective min-maxing. Its been my experience that even with a level loss the new character is usually at least as powerful at doing whatever it is the party is doing as the dearly departed.
Lol, balance, in this game; not likely; just have fun and forget about balance between classes; it is hopeless. To say we who believe this havent read the rules is a very strained arguement. As in any game like this one; there is always going to be a few best classes, few best feats, few most necessary skill and so on; a balanced game would not be like that as there would be balance between such things as feats so no one feat would be necessarily better than any other.
In the end the desire for a perfectly balanced game might fall into the realm of 'be careful what you wish for'.
There was a MMORPG that came out a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name know and I never played it but a bunch of my players did. So they get into this MMORPG and their harping on and on about how wonderfully balanced it is.
Well about a month or six weeks later the topic of this MMORPG omes up again and I ask them how their doing. The answer is pretty much unanimously - it blows chunks and we are not playing any more. The problem is that its perfectly balanced - you can choose between various skills and powers at new levels but its irrelevant what you choose, all your options are just as good and suddenly it no longer seems worth choosing in the first place. If ability A will help you exactly as much as ability B you might as well close your eyes and choose blindly because in the end your choice just does not matter.
So a little bit of imbalance is actually good for the game. It makes your players choices meaningful.
Meaningful choices are really the heart and soul of a game like D&D. A lot of the fun is in the interesting choices they get to make both at the game table and between sessions when they level up their characters.
This is part of why its often so hard to get newbies to have fun at the game - they're to new to understand that they have meaningful choices they can make (and the vets generally tell them what to do anyway) and their too inexperienced to understand all the options available to them.