Hi.Question concerning Paizo's (or WotC's [I don't know which]) multiple Demonomicons.
Question #1: Why wasen't the epic stats for Kostchtchie and Dagon as well as the prestige class Thrall to Kostchtchie in the WotC book Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. I could be wrong but am I correct in my assumption that WotC specifically left out stats for Prestige Classes and Epic versions of the Demon Lords for the sole purpose of forcing us to find them by purchasing the Demonomicons of Dragon Magazine sold by Paizo?
Hi.Question concerning Paizo's (or WotC's [I don't know which]) multiple Demonomicons.
Question #1: Why wasen't the epic stats for Kostchtchie and Dagon as well as the prestige class Thrall to Kostchtchie in the WotC book Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. I could be wrong but am I correct in my assumption that WotC specifically left out stats for Prestige Classes and Epic versions of the Demon Lords for the sole purpose of forcing us to find them by purchasing the Demonomicons of Dragon Magazine sold by Paizo?
First off, Demonomicon started in the pages of Dragon Magazine. Eventually, WotC informed their staff to write a book on demons. However, WotC has a problem with making their books bigger than 160 pages so the content in FCI had to be new and shouldn't overlap too much with existing material.
Also, FCI is a guide as opposed to Demonomicon which is a detailed article on one specific demon lord. FCI did not have any room at all for prestige classes. And you can run the demon lords without Dragon Magazine, but if you want a more powerful and more detailed demon lord then Demonomicon helps with that. Otherwise, FCI alone is fine by itself.
Creative Director
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Since I write the Demonomicon articles and I wrote about 40% of FC1 (with Erik, the guy who buys the Demonomicon articles writing another 40% of FC1), the two of us decided we didn't want the two sources to really overlap. FC1 was short, so we couldn't put everything in. And I had no interest in simply repeating myself between the articles and FC1. And I assumed that most of the Demonomicon readers wouldn't like to just see those articles repeated ad nauseum.
Each of the Demonomicon articles is quite long, and if I were to do a Demonomicon-length writeup for each of the 14 demon lords in FC 1, that'd take up nearly the entire length of the book, which leaves no room to talk about normal demons or the Abyss itself.
FC1 and the Demonomicon articles are, by design, intended to supplement and support each other. I can't help but think it was, in fact, the Demonomicon articles that helped convince WotC to do FC1 in the first place, since we were already about a year into the series before they came to Erik and I to write the book. We were more or less given a blank slate to work with, and the decision on what to put in the book was more or less left up to us. The choice to have the Demonomicon articles and FC1 not repeat much information was, in fact, our choice, not WotC's.
Of COURSE we want you to buy both FC1 and Dragon magazine. That's the way it works in a business. And if FC1 had been increased in size so it was twice as large, we would have made the same choice; we simply would have put in more Abyssal layers and new demons and other new stuff rather than repeat the Demonomicon articles. If that stinks of greed to you, I'm sorry you feel that way, but RPG products cost a lot of money to make.
I agree with you, James, that if you guys had more space to work with that the material should still be new. I am very glad only a miniscule of material from Demonomicon made it into FCI. You guys did a great job with what you were given so major kudos to you guys.
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My take on this, is that both are immensely useful to any campaign. The fact is, I hope that both Paizo and WotC are make gads of profit on their products, so that they will continue to make those products. In truth, I think both companies are very good at what they do. WotC is the king of sourcebooks, and Paizo the king of adventures and support materials. Think of it this way. For roughly the price of one sourcebook, you can get 12 issues of either Dungeon or Dragon. For the price of two sourcebooks, you can get both. I guarantee you that the content in the 12 issues of the mag is far more than you are getting from 2 sourcebooks, so I say that in terms of bang for your buck it is worth giving up 2 sourcebooks a year to get the full magazines. I personally don't really fully understand the irritation over the Demonomicon articles and FCI. They really don't cover the same things, and even from the perspective of stats for the Demon princes, one gives you a good creature for a BBEG in a 20th level campaign and the other a more powerful version for epic play. Both are useful depending on what role you want the Demon princes to play in your campaign. Additionally, let me point out that all the flavor material from the Demonomicon articles could never fit into a single sourcebook for all the reasons James pointed out. So the two really support one another very well. I for one hope they continue the amazing articles in the magazine, especially because I bought FCI. I feel like I am getting a ton of added value out of my dollar on FCI because the same author who wrote it is writing the Demonomicon articles and I am getting them as part of my subscription (which I would have gotten anyway).
Total sweetness.
My take on this, is that both are immensely useful to any campaign. The fact is, I hope that both Paizo and WotC are make gads of profit on their products, so that they will continue to make those products. In truth, I think both companies are very good at what they do. WotC is the king of sourcebooks, and Paizo the king of adventures and support materials. Think of it this way. For roughly the price of one sourcebook, you can get 12 issues of either Dungeon or Dragon. For the price of two sourcebooks, you can get both. I guarantee you that the content in the 12 issues of the mag is far more than you are getting from 2 sourcebooks, so I say that in terms of bang for your buck it is worth giving up 2 sourcebooks a year to get the full magazines. I personally don't really fully understand the irritation over the Demonomicon articles and FCI. They really don't cover the same things, and even from the perspective of stats for the Demon princes, one gives you a good creature for a BBEG in a 20th level campaign and the other a more powerful version for epic play. Both are useful depending on what role you want the Demon princes to play in your campaign. Additionally, let me point out that all the flavor material from the Demonomicon articles could never fit into a single sourcebook for all the reasons James pointed out. So the two really support one another very well. I for one hope they continue the amazing articles in the magazine, especially because I bought FCI. I feel like I am getting a ton of added value out of my dollar on FCI because the same author who wrote it is writing the Demonomicon articles and I am getting them as part of my subscription (which I would have gotten anyway).
Total sweetness.
Extremely well put. Now everybody go out and buy FC2 so that they'll make FC3 "Mercenaries of Gehenna!" Please? Seriously, please!
yeah, i might just have to get FC2 for that reason alone, if none other. :)
but we'll see - there might just be enough in there for me to like!
If they don't consider an FC3 on Yugoloths I'll...I'll...I think I'll send a really nasty letter...yeah...something like that
I just ordered FC2 in my FLGS today. I´m curious, even anxious to see all that hellish goodness in there, even if I probably will never use it. But I liked FC1 so much, I decided that I just have to buy FC2.
Stefan