There was a recent thread on elves and how one might alter them.
It got me thinking...
Seeing as most, if not all, demi-humans have some form of enhanced vision, usually in the form of low-light or darkvision; would said races have eyeshine?
Would a nearby torch light their eyes up like a racoon peeking out of a dumpster when you shine a flashlight at it?
I'm working with the idea and will most likely be using it in my upcoming game. So far, I'm thinking that the eyeshine would grant a +2 bonus to spot checks made against the character while in the dark. Possibly a +4 if the light was close enough or unusually bright.
Thoughts on this or other racial adjustments?
Another side of the same coin, since there are so many races with superior forms of vision, might it be easier to say that Spot checks against humans in the dark suffer a -2 penalty?
Just a thought.
There are so many things that could be fleshed out and detailed to make the game much more lifelike and interesting, but they come at the cost of complication and slowed gameplay. This keps me from delving into these matters too much. Nevertheless, I look forward to some of the ideas that pop up here.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Seeing as most, if not all, demi-humans have some form of enhanced vision, usually in the form of low-light or darkvision; would said races have eyeshine?
I would say that low-light vision would have 'eyeshine' but darkvision would not. The tapetum lucidum common in cats and other nocturnal animals would certainly be present in the eyes of elves and other 'low-light vision' races in order to explain their unusually canny night vision but darkvision exceeds the normal boundaries into something unnatural (by our standards). No amount of inner-occular reflection would allow a creature to see in total darkness and therefore darkvision must function on something other than visible light (perhaps heat or 'radar'). I would even go so far as to say that darkvision (since it has limited range and cannot perceive color) functions on some sub-spectrum of light (possibly radio waves) that are emitted by all forms of matter. Therefore, the eyeshine created by the tapetum lucidum would be inappropriate for these races.
My $0.02.
I know most of you don't like the R.A. Salvatore references, but in some of his books I have read it mentions that some races (drow and halflings, specifically) can shift their sight from normal to infravison, and that their eyes glow when they are viewing things in the infrared spectrum. But I haven't seen any of the races say that they have infravision in the Player's Handbook, only low-light or darkvision. Is this supposed to be similar? In any case, either eyeshine or the glowing eyes can be used for your argument, unless the player specifically says that their eyes are closed, making for some potentially interesting situations.
Seeing as most, if not all, demi-humans have some form of enhanced vision, usually in the form of low-light or darkvision; would said races have eyeshine?I would say that low-light vision would have 'eyeshine' but darkvision would not. The tapetum lucidum common in cats and other nocturnal animals would certainly be present in the eyes of elves and other 'low-light vision' races in order to explain their unusually canny night vision but darkvision exceeds the normal boundaries into something unnatural (by our standards). No amount of inner-occular reflection would allow a creature to see in total darkness and therefore darkvision must function on something other than visible light (perhaps heat or 'radar'). I would even go so far as to say that darkvision (since it has limited range and cannot perceive color) functions on some sub-spectrum of light (possibly radio waves) that are emitted by all forms of matter. Therefore, the eyeshine created by the tapetum lucidum would be inappropriate for these races.
My $0.02.
Fatespinner - thats is a really cool reply!
I might add such effects for flavor - but I personally tend to stay away from things like glowing eyes - becasue although I like them as a flavor elements they challenge logic - not so much the logic of how magic works - "darkvision" is clearly magical, but the logic of the side effects - in total darkness glowing eyes would draw attention, crush hide checks, and might also impact - diplomacy, intimidate, and other skills that require interaction.
To me the flavor of glowing eyes doesn't offset the penalties that would (logically) ensue to normal interactions and combat in darkness.
NOW that said glowing eyes with penalties as a flaw to balance the benefit of darkvision - that might make some sense.
But darkvision isn't magical. It's extraordinary, which means there's about as much magic at work there as a rhino charging or a snakes poison (which is to say, none). If it was magical, that would bring darkvision into the realm of all the various forms of magical interactions that exist, which is not what the game designers wanted.
I know that darkvision doesn't make a whole lot of logical/biological sense, as there is no explanation provided for it, but it's not magical.
And Fatespinner was pointing out that eyeshine doesn't really make sense for creatures with darkvision. The ability probably doesn't rely on the same bio-mechanics as real world night creatures, since there ability is closer to low-light vision. As Fatespinner said, no creature has the ability to see, as in the typical definition, in absolute darkness.
Not to mention, I don't think darkvision needs penalties for its bonuses. It only allows for an extremely short line of sight. Creatures considered to be playable races with darkvision presumably already have balancing factors somewhere else in their list of abilities/qualities.
Guess, Infravision was the darkvision of older versions of D&D, which is when Salvatore wrote most of his books. Infravision raised too many logic questions and problems, apparently, which is why it was scrapped for 3.x and replaced with the unexplained, yet still nonmagical, "darkvision."
My personal interpretation is that darkvision was created as an answer to the aforementioned issues with Infravision, and its explanation was intentionally left out of the game to avoid those problems returning in another guise. Thus, I am extremely hesitant to engage in, and would typically recommend avoiding, discussions about how it works, since that was purposefully left out.
That said, I did like the idea that it may be somehow related to radio wave emissions. But I wouldn't go any farther with it.
Just my coppers.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Guess, Infravision was the darkvision of older versions of D&D, which is when Salvatore wrote most of his books. Infravision raised too many logic questions and problems, apparently, which is why it was scrapped for 3.x and replaced with the unexplained, yet still nonmagical, "darkvision."
FYI, the reason infravision was dropped was because clever players like us realized that 'thermal vision' would allow you to see warm spots left by a creature's footprints on cold stone, allow you to see thermal signatures that bleed through thin cover (someone leaning on a door would be visible to thermal vision from the other side), and allow you to very clearly see a warm-bodied creature amongst a bunch of cooler plants and rocks (regardless of how good their stealth skill was). Darkvision takes away all those benefits and leaves us with a nigh-unexplainable alternative.
Meh, I'm going with the radio wave theory.
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Seeing as most, if not all, demi-humans have some form of enhanced vision, usually in the form of low-light or darkvision; would said races have eyeshine?I would say that low-light vision would have 'eyeshine' but darkvision would not. The tapetum lucidum common in cats and other nocturnal animals would certainly be present in the eyes of elves and other 'low-light vision' races in order to explain their unusually canny night vision but darkvision exceeds the normal boundaries into something unnatural (by our standards). No amount of inner-occular reflection would allow a creature to see in total darkness and therefore darkvision must function on something other than visible light (perhaps heat or 'radar'). I would even go so far as to say that darkvision (since it has limited range and cannot perceive color) functions on some sub-spectrum of light (possibly radio waves) that are emitted by all forms of matter. Therefore, the eyeshine created by the tapetum lucidum would be inappropriate for these races.
My $0.02.
I'm in agreement with Fatespinner on this one. In fact, this is pretty much how i describe these abilities to my players in my games.
Thoth-Amon
Have you seen Sean K Reynold's rant on infravision?
Very informative... ( the rant )
No doubt on using the low-light vision eye-shine idea...
As for darkvision, I do agree that there's something "unnatural" about it. Magical, I can't say, but it is clearly different. So no eye-shine there...
What about tremorsense? Highly developed senses? Hyper-active inner ear? A specialized organ? Thoughts?
And, while I'm thinking about it... Blindsense?
-Kurocyn
Blindsense, in the cases of dolphins and bats, is echolocation. Some creatures, such as sharks and platypi (sp?), have the ability to sense the electricity in the muscles and nerves of living creatures. Blindsight is simply a refinement of this ability. I think grells (MM2, detailed further in Lords of Madness) are supposed to have the electrical sense for their perception abilities, as I think there was an optional rule for electrial damage to impair their senses by "overloading" them. Some creatures may rely on chemical reactions; nowhere is it stated, but I can see a gelatinous cube sensing reactions on its surface with organic molecules to determine the location of living creatures (this would make constructs, undead, and certain other things, like elementals and some outsiders, invisible to it, however; but, when does that come up, anyway?)
Snakes actually hear by what we would amount to "tremorsense" (they feel vibrations in the ground). Fine hairs that touch the ground, or any other semi-stiff receptor that transmits vibrations well, would allow for tremorsense. This ability actually makes a great deal of sense, as sound waves travel through denser objects much better than lighter ones. The bullete is covered in large bony plates that would probably recieve such vibrations very well, thus explaining its tremorsense.
Makes sense. ( hooray for bad puns )
So a PC that gained said abilities, i.e. - a high lv scout gaining blindsense, is more of just them being that skilled or experienced in given situations? Not them developing echo-location or cilia?
-Kurocyn
Woops- meant to say that echolocation would be blindsight, not blindsense. I'd rule the scout's blindsense as just being super keen hearing, and a kind of "sixth sense" or "nature sense" that let him instinctively tell the general direction and distance of nearby creatures. Characters with these abilities (gained through class) can be a little harder to understand and explain than animals with actual biological adaptations (unless the class actually states that the character gains some adaptation!).