So, my group just went up against Dragotha last night, and, long story short, he went down like a chump. A really weak chump. Like, seriously.
First and foremost, allow me to say that I hate single-opponent encounters. At higher levels, with the resources PCs have access to, it doesn't matter how powerful the bag guy is- unless he's able to kill with a no-save touch, the PCs are gonna kill him.
(Lemme just say a rough party description- it's a 3-member party, consisting of a Paladin/Ranger/Monk/Tempest/Pious Templar/Fighter specializing in two-weapon fighting, a Cleric with a level of Barbarian focusing in self-buffing, and a Savant/Warlock specializing in dealing damage that can't be resisted by pretty much anything. All 20th level.)
The fight began relatively instantly. Rather than dredging through the Tabernacle of Worms and fighting fight after boring fight, the PCs had the idea to simply teleport into the Writhing Sanctum. (After all, Balakarde did it so many years before, and he's there to give a detailed description, so why couldn't they?) They knew that if they were to do so, they would probably be swarmed by all of the other inhabitants of the Tabernacle, but they decided that they wanted to do it anyway (mainly because the idea of doing that scared them, and they liked the thought of actually fighting a ridiculously tough battle). So they buffed up, completely and totally. Not a single buff was spared. They used scrolls of Energy Immunity versus every energy type (15 scrolls altogether); Death Ward; Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Splendor on anyone who wasn't getting a better bonus from an item; Heroes Feast; Heroism; Shield Other; Stoneskin; Displacement; Spell Resistance; pretty much any non-self-only buff you can think of, they had a scroll of it. There were even two or three Miracles thrown in there for good measure. Long story short, it took an hour for them to finish calculating all of their buffs.
Once they were all buffed up, they teleported in. The first round, when the essences of Balakarde gave them their power-ups, the Paladin (who, without the Slayer fragment, wouldn't have been able to hit Dragotha except on a natural 20) full-attacks Dragotha with his eight attacks (all holy, all axiomatic, all undead bane) and deals around 200 points of damage. The Barbarian/Cleric, who normally deals around 100 damage or so per hit, actually missed with every attack. The Warlock shoots two Eldritch Blasts (one quickened) at Dragotha, one and a half of which get reflected back at him due to his ring of Spell Turning (which I sorta cheated and said he already activated). Dragotha, since I knew that they were immune to fire and immune to negative energy (thanks to Energy Immunity and Death Ward) couldn't use EITHER of his breath weapons, so instead he full-attacked the Paladin, only hitting once (which was thankfully a crit) for around 120 damage (which had to contend with his stoneskin, and then shield other). The second round, Mahuudril and six Avolakias arrived, but really none of their spells whatsoever were effective (as none of the avolakias had a high enough caster level to overcome their spell resistance, and even if they did, all of them were rocking +30/+40ish saves), so I had them all basically cast Mass Inflict Light wounds every round, making a feeble attempt at hurting the PCs (which couldn't have succeeded anyway, due to Death Ward) and healing Dragotha for paltry amounts. (I had one of them attempt a Dispel Magic, but all of the spells I REALLY wanted to dispel had far too high of caster levels.) Mahuudril, though, was beefed up slightly- I secretly gave her access to Mass Harm. She cast it, and managed to get through a couple PCs' spell resistance, and then I remembered they had Death Ward on. It still healed Dragotha for 150 hp, though.
But, the PCs were still kicking, and really hadn't taken all that much damage. So the barrage continued, each round the Paladin doing around 200 or so damage. The Barbarian/Cleric was actually purposely fighting the mooks instead of Dragotha- he felt bad for beating Brazzemal in Kings of the Rift in one round. So he dispatched Mahuudril and two of the Avolakia. On the third round, I had Venk and Zyrith show up- but by then, they were less effective than anyone else. Honestly, Dragotha was below 0 hit points after the second round- but, as a DM, I do my best to make baddies SEEM like they had a chance, so whenever a battle goes too quickly (like this one) I secretly add more and more HP to them. After all, the PCs don't know he only has 850 hp, so who's gonna argue? So I let them keep wailing on Dragotha, with him barely even doing anything (once, after he had full attacked the Paladin, and the Cleric, both of which had ACs far too high to really be of any consequence to, he went after the Savant/Warlock, and hit with almost all of his attacks- but still only ended up doing around 150 damage to him (which, remember, was then split, thanks to Shield Other). Once Dragotha had taken a total of 1500 damage, and then the Paladin did a full-attack that ended up doing around 400 damage, I decided he had lasted enough.
Dragotha, the original undead dragon, was dead.
I think, whenever Dungeon releases an encounter with a single big bad guy, they greatly forget that three times as many actions is A BIG DEAL. They also overlook the power of a party that's well-prepared. Anyone else have similar experiences?
I have a question: Regarding your warlock with the quickened eldritch blast - Did he use Quicken Spell-like Ability to do that - and if so, had you house-ruled it to remain effective past 13th level? IIRC, the eldritch blast has an effective spell level equal to 1/2 the warlock's class level, and you can't normally use Quicken Spell-like Ability on a spell above 6th level. I have a warlock in my group who would find that particularly handy later on.
I have a question: Regarding your warlock with the quickened eldritch blast - Did he use Quicken Spell-like Ability to do that - and if so, had you house-ruled it to remain effective past 13th level? IIRC, the eldritch blast has an effective spell level equal to 1/2 the warlock's class level, and you can't normally use Quicken Spell-like Ability on a spell above 6th level. I have a warlock in my group who would find that particularly handy later on.
Actually, Wizards errata'd Eldritch Blast to always be considered a 1st-level spell, rather than half the Warlock's class level. Any Essence or Shape invocation applied to it increases that to whatever the Essence or Shape's level is- so a normal Eldritch Blast is considered a 1st-level spell, but a Vitriolic Blast would count as a 6th-level spell. However, if you take any of the Spell-Like Ability feats (Quicken Spell-Like Ability, for example) with your Eldritch Blast, even if you apply a Shape or Essence invocation to it that raises its level, the feat still applies to it. So once you can Quicken Eldritch Blasts, you can even quicken Brimstone Blasts, Eldritch Cones, and so on, as long as you stay within your 3/day limit. See what I mean?
I am considering either having Dragotha's battle area be draped with an anti-magic field (which also reduces some of his abilities) or having him be accompanied by powerful undead such as Mind-Killer Scorpions, Earth-Cancer Centipedes, Ulgurstata, Kyuss-Favored Chimera, and the like (so that they resist the cold damage.)
I think I might have used some form of dimensional lock or desecration effect to prevent the heroes from teleporting right in with Dragotha. Nerfing/Railroading? Maybe....
I have to decide soon how I am going to run the Dragotha fight - my PCs will face him in about two or three weeks.
Actually, Wizards errata'd Eldritch Blast to always be considered a 1st-level spell, rather than half the Warlock's class level.
I was under the impression that the use of an eldritch blast, regardless of its equivelant spell level, was always a standard action.
I was under the impression that the use of an eldritch blast, regardless of its equivelant spell level, was always a standard action.
Well, regardless of anything else, it's a Spell-Like Ability, and thus takes a standard action to use. With the quicken Spell-Like Ability feat, it can be quickened like any other spell-like abilties.
Also, as far as not letting them teleport into the room, I had no problem with it- after all, by the time we got to this point, it was late, and I honestly didn't feel familiar with the rest of the dungeon to want to run all of it. So, to my relief, the players came up with this idea, which I really didn't have any problem with.
I had Balakarde, as a disembodied voice, give a vague enough description of Dragotha's lair that a teleport there was out (his mind was likely on other things at the time, I think). The PCs stilled rocked Dragotha, but this is after like 2 hours of scheming, hashing out tactics over and over, and buffing like mad. Nobody minded that Dragotha didn't last too long, because it was understood that the preparation was 3/4 of the fight, and the PCs had intentionally grabbed every dragon- and undead-bane spell and item they could get their filthy rich little hands on. It also helped that I clued them periodically: when his breath of death shattered against their invisible wall of force across the entrance, I mentioned casually that the spell was the only reason that any of them were still standing. That got their attention quick.
Well, regardless of anything else, it's a Spell-Like Ability, and thus takes a standard action to use. With the quicken Spell-Like Ability feat, it can be quickened like any other spell-like abilties.
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I agree.
There will be plenty more fights in the next (and final) module. Whatever you do, don't let them push Lashonna around! After all, she got over on Dragotha. She has a few surprises in store for my PCs.
(Origianl Post was Swallowed Whole by Advanced Elite Fiendish Web-Monster)
Yikes, I don't know how long I could handle dming a game where characters take an hour to calculate power ups before going into battle (although they spend a good chunk of time doing that now).
Here's a thought for next time. Dragotha has a pretty kicking grapple check, so instead of trying to do damage start grappling. If he could have pinned the two fighters with a claw each he could then focus with his bite and other attacks on the spell caster. Once he'd taken care of the spell caster he could start dishing out damage to the fighters. Or try to sunder or disarm some weapons.
Another alternative would be to bring Dragotha to them. What's to stop him from using some scry and die tactics on the characters. Just when they're about to power up for battle the dragon shows up. That might be a massacre though.
Futhermore, where they making all their own scrolls or buying them. Because if they bought them then you have to consider that by the time they cast all their buffs on their allies a lot of the round/level spells would be close to wearing off before the battle even began. However, it sounds like the battle wasn't more than a couple of rounds anyhow- so maybe that wouldn't have made a difference.
Maybe dms should insititute a rule saying that there can be no more than x many spells active on a character at any given time. Mortal bodies just can't handle that much magic, running through them. Or to make it insteresting you could say that you can use as many spells as you want, but after you go over a certain ammount their is a chance that the spells will interact in some weird way and short out. You could set up a little table to roll on. For instance after 6 spells are active on you each additional spell results in a 10% cumulative chance per round of a spell short out. If the character rolls a short out effects could range from all spells are discharged, to you polymorph into something wierd, to you suffer damage or ability drain- any number of possiblities. Hmmm.. I think I might insitute are rule like that. Anything to keep the characters from bogging down the game casting tons of buff spells on them- I mean my Sunday afternoons are valuable I don't want to waste my day waiting for players to do all that accounting (save that crap for computer games that do the math for you).
okay, there's a few things the dm forgot here and that's understandable under the circumstances. first, any dragon, especially Dragotha, would have a dimensional lock on his lair. and a greater teleport would not work at all.
second. contingency teleport for the Big D himself. you never have to use the module as written, and dragotha would use minion after minion to weaken the party and get those buff spells down before he cam back, fully healed, to destroy the interlopers.
third, you do remember the necromantic aura in the room doing 2d6+x amount of damage to good aligned and healing dragotha for the same amount? seems like that would have weakened the party somewhat.
4th. about the "teleport in and fight him after buffing tactic" high level opponents should have scry abilities by the bucketload. once they figure out what's happening they could go directly to the PCs and fight them there before they could buff. then DM a TPK. Dragotha should have killed them all, he's a cr 27 creature for Io's sake. seems like you forgot a few things that could have made it a more dramatic fight.
oh, and next time, try telling a PC to stop at 3 classes instead of 6. thats one of the problems of this party, too many level dips. but that's just my personal opinion so there's that.
In the 3.5 rules there is a Will save against scrying, so it isn't a given that you could scry the PCs and there is always that spell (mindblank) I think that protects you from scrying type magic.
okay, there's a few things the dm forgot here and that's understandable under the circumstances. first, any dragon, especially Dragotha, would have a dimensional lock on his lair. and a greater teleport would not work at all.
second. contingency teleport for the Big D himself. you never have to use the module as written, and dragotha would use minion after minion to weaken the party and get those buff spells down before he cam back, fully healed, to destroy the interlopers.
third, you do remember the necromantic aura in the room doing 2d6+x amount of damage to good aligned and healing dragotha for the same amount? seems like that would have weakened the party somewhat.
4th. about the "teleport in and fight him after buffing tactic" high level opponents should have scry abilities by the bucketload. once they figure out what's happening they could go directly to the PCs and fight them there before they could buff. then DM a TPK. Dragotha should have killed them all, he's a cr 27 creature for Io's sake. seems like you forgot a few things that could have made it a more dramatic fight.
oh, and next time, try telling a PC to stop at 3 classes instead of 6. thats one of the problems of this party, too many level dips. but that's just my personal opinion so there's that.
While I can't comment on the fight as my campaign is far from this point I can comment on several things.
I, myself, have noticed two things. Single BBEG's are not all they are cracked up to be. One failed save on a major spell and the fight is over. Can't get much more anticlimactic than a player saying "That's it? He's dead?" No matter how you slice it, if a DM is truly neutral this is bound to happen fairly regular. As a DM, the only way I know how to counteract that is to either say, "yeah, he made his save again! Go figure" or perhaps "Wow! Another 20 on the save! He's on fire!" or to just assume he has some buff on that counteracts the spell due to his genius like intelligence. In either case, I don't like doing it and rarely do it.
The other thing that you mentioned was party buffing. I have noticed that if the PC's have the drop on the bad guy and buff up, the fight ends pretty quick because now they are technically a few levels higher in terms of power. Of course, the reverse is true. A party out of resources may not be able to manage a fight on the same CR as them.
Anyways, I recognize these as 2 issues with the current system (no flames please ;) ) that a lot authors don't consider in their design.
So to sum it up, yeah I agree with you on these points.
As a suggestion for future DMs of this dungeon (myself included), I'd make Dragotha's death wind do half negative energy damage, half some other form of damage(vile?). It really sucks that his most powerful attack is completely shut down by a 4th level spell that every party will be carrying.
I'd also give Dragotha a quickened bloodwind spell or two (Spell Compendium), lets him use his physical attacks from a distance. I can't remember if its a divine or arcane spell but if its divine it would be easy enough to give him a minor magic item that duplicates the effect, its only a first level spell (I think...)
Honestly, as long as your players had a great time, the rules issues are back seat as far as I'm concerned. If they're willing to put an hour into preparation for what they know is a key fight in the campaign and if they're serious enough that they care about their characters to the point that they want to make sure they survive to the very end by doing all the homework possible, you've done something right as a DM. At least, in my opinion.
okay, there's a few things the dm forgot here and that's understandable under the circumstances. first, any dragon, especially Dragotha, would have a dimensional lock on his lair. and a greater teleport would not work at all.
Actually, I'm afraid you're wrong. Obvious Dragotha didn't have a Dimensional Lock on his lair sixteen years ago, as Balakarde teleported in himself, and was quickly destroyed. Since Balakarde was the last person to try this tactic, and he wasn't even able to lay a finger on Dragotha, there really wasn't any reason for him to change it, was there? If Dragotha had a Dimensional Lock, it would have been listed.
Oh, but it couldn't have been Dimensionally Locked. If it was, Lashonna wouldn't have been able to transport Kyuss' monolith away. But she did. So obviously, there's no Dimensional Lock to speak of.
second. contingency teleport for the Big D himself. you never have to use the module as written, and dragotha would use minion after minion to weaken the party and get those buff spells down before he cam back, fully healed, to destroy the interlopers.
The thing is, the minions could do nothing- I repeat, nothing- to the PCs. Plus, there really aren't THAT many minions to be spoken of. Also, a couple nitpicks: First, if there was a Dimensional Lock on the area, as you said there should be, how could Dragotha teleport away? Second, Dragotha doesn't have Contingency as a known spell, and it's a self-only spell. Third, if they absolutely needed to, the cleric could easily cast Miracle to teleport all of the party members to wherever Dragotha is, or even to bring Dragotha back to them. Remember, they've got 9th-level spells on their side, and Dragotha doesn't.
third, you do remember the necromantic aura in the room doing 2d6+x amount of damage to good aligned and healing dragotha for the same amount? seems like that would have weakened the party somewhat.
Alright, I'll admit, I completely forgot about this. However, the PCs wouldn't have taken any damage from it anyway, as it's Negative Energy (stopped by Death Ward- which is the same reason his Death Wind was inconsequential). Also, 2d6+6 hit points every round doesn't make much of a different when he's dead in three rounds. Even when I doubled his hit points, that still doesn't make a difference.
4th. about the "teleport in and fight him after buffing tactic" high level opponents should have scry abilities by the bucketload. once they figure out what's happening they could go directly to the PCs and fight them there before they could buff. then DM a TPK. Dragotha should have killed them all, he's a cr 27 creature for Io's sake. seems like you forgot a few things that could have made it a more dramatic fight.
I'm quite aware Dragotha is a CR 27- and I'm saying, as many people before me have noticed, CRs really mean nothing at higher levels. A 1st-level party against a CR 5 is definitely a TPK- whereas a 15th-level party against a CR 20 is NOT definitely a TPK. Just because Dragotha's stats award him some arbitrary number doesn't mean that, when the PCs fairly win a battle, something went wrong.
That being said, it's specifically stated in the adventure that Dragotha WILL NOT come out to attack the PCs. True, the DM could change this, but why? If he could just come out and kill them right now, why didn't he come out and kill them once they got his phylactery? Also, jsut because Dragotha CAN scry on them doesn't mean he's scrying on them 24/7. Who's to say he just happened to be scrying on them for the five minutes before they attacked? He's good, but not THAT good. Even still, the PCs all had Mind Blank on, so even if he DID manage to try to scry on them at the perfect moment, it wouldn't work.
oh, and next time, try telling a PC to stop at 3 classes instead of 6. thats one of the problems of this party, too many level dips. but that's just my personal opinion so there's that.
Nobody told Drizz't to stop taking classes. Just because someone isn't single-classed doesn't mean there's anything wrong. There are, after all, lots of feats and books specifically made to benefit people who multiclass, and believe me, there are penalties as well as benefits. Not to mention that the player fully justified all of his class levels within the story.
Just because they had an easy fight doesn't mean I did something wrong. I'll admit, I made some errors (as does every DM), but as anyone else can tell you, any fight with a group against a single foe is going to go in favor of the group. This battle, as well as the lizardfolk battle in the Encounter at Blackwall Keep, only looks daunting on paper- in many cases, it's played out as a complete and total victory. Does that mean someone did something wrong?
No. It means that things didn't go as planned. Do they ever?
I tend to agree with all your points. Although I still think that if Dragotha had made some grapple checks on some of the fighters or spell casters that would help. You can't cast those miracle or mass heal spells if you are pinned by a dragon claw, and you can't dish out 200hp of damage a round with your swords when you are trying to break a grapple check against a gargantuan opponent.
okay, there's a few things the dm forgot here and that's understandable under the circumstances. first, any dragon, especially Dragotha, would have a dimensional lock on his lair. and a greater teleport would not work at all.Actually, I'm afraid you're wrong. Obvious Dragotha didn't have a Dimensional Lock on his lair sixteen years ago, as Balakarde teleported in himself, and was quickly destroyed. Since Balakarde was the last person to try this tactic, and he wasn't even able to lay a finger on Dragotha, there really wasn't any reason for him to change it, was there? If Dragotha had a Dimensional Lock, it would have been listed.
Oh, but it couldn't have been Dimensionally Locked. If it was, Lashonna wouldn't have been able to transport Kyuss' monolith away. But she did. So obviously, there's no Dimensional Lock to speak of.
second. contingency teleport for the Big D himself. you never have to use the module as written, and dragotha would use minion after minion to weaken the party and get those buff spells down before he cam back, fully healed, to destroy the interlopers.The thing is, the minions could do nothing- I repeat, nothing- to the PCs. Plus, there really aren't THAT many minions to be spoken of. Also, a couple nitpicks: First, if there was a Dimensional Lock on the area, as you said there should be, how could Dragotha teleport away? Second, Dragotha doesn't have Contingency as a known spell, and it's a self-only spell. Third, if they absolutely needed to, the cleric could easily cast Miracle to teleport all of the party members to wherever Dragotha is, or even to bring Dragotha back to them. Remember, they've got 9th-level spells on their side, and Dragotha doesn't.
third, you do remember the necromantic aura in the room doing 2d6+x amount of damage to good aligned and healing dragotha for the same amount? seems like that would have weakened the party somewhat.Alright, I'll admit, I...
tend to agree with all your points. Although I still think that if Dragotha had made some grapple checks on some of the fighters or spell casters that would help. You can't cast those miracle or mass heal spells if you are pinned by a dragon claw, and you can't dish out 200hp of damage a round with your swords when you are trying to break a grapple check against a gargantuan opponent.
I'm a big advocate of the grappling tactic but I think a simple freedom of movement spell counters this. If these PCs powered up like nobody's business then they probably had that as well.
Good point- I hadn't read the spell description recently, I didn't realize you automatically make your attempts to resist grapples when you have that spell cast. Death ward and Freeddom of Movement certainly give a party some serious advantages against Dragotha, and the aren't even all that high level of spells. Dragotha really needs to knock out some of their buffs if he's going to do well. Maybe a rod of cancellation, or a scroll with mordenkeinan's disjunction, would give him the edge he needs to foil those buffed up characters.
tend to agree with all your points. Although I still think that if Dragotha had made some grapple checks on some of the fighters or spell casters that would help. You can't cast those miracle or mass heal spells if you are pinned by a dragon claw, and you can't dish out 200hp of damage a round with your swords when you are trying to break a grapple check against a gargantuan opponent.I'm a big advocate of the grappling tactic but I think a simple freedom of movement spell counters this. If these PCs powered up like nobody's business then they probably had that as well.
Death ward and Freeddom of Movement certainly give a party some serious advantages against Dragotha, and the aren't even all that high level of spells.
Exactly. I have no problem with a party planning up the wazoo for a big fight but if you take those two spells and throw in the Balakarde factor its gonna be a cakewalk. I think Dragotha's stats are bang on, but he's gotta have a little more prep for a full party with access to 9th level spells.
Dragotha really needs to knock out some of their buffs if he's going to do well. Maybe a rod of cancellation, or a scroll with mordenkeinan's disjunction, would give him the edge he needs to foil those buffed up characters.
The players discussed that prior to the fight... they knew that really, the one thing that would probably be their downfall would be a Mordenkainen's Disjunciton spell, and so they considered having the Cleric ready an Antimagic Field spell at least for the first round of combat, in the case Dragotha tried to cast it (as MD only has a 1% chance per caster level of dstroying an Antimagic Field, so if he cast MD, they'd just throw up their readied Antimagic Field to stop it, and then on the Cleric's next turn, he could dismiss the field)- but they eventually decided not to, as that was quite a situational thing, and so instead they just did whatever they could to buff up their Will Saves (including one Miracle that allowed the Cleric a +10 on his Will Save vs. Mordenkainen's Disjunction for one combat). By the time the fight actually began, with Balakarde's bonuses, the lowest will save was around +40 or so (with the highest, I think, being a +60), so the only way they'd lose any buffs or magic items or anything is if they rolled many, many natural 1's.
Also, as for the grappling idea- they actually didn't have Freedom of Movement on (except for the Paladin), but for the last couple adventures I've decided that trying to grapple my party was pointless, as the Paladin's immune to it, the Savant/Warlock has the Flee the Scene invocation (which normally can't be used in a grapple, but I created a Still Spell-Like Ability feat for the Warlock, as it hardly seemed imbalanced), and one of the main buffs on the Cleric was a Miracle-cast Giant Size (Wu Jen spell from Complete Arcane- in short, the Cleric was a colossal creature) which gave the Cleric a better grapple check than Dragotha.
Like I said, this party was quite prepared. I looked over Dragotha's stats for a good minute or two every round, looking for SOMETHING I could use to gain the upper hand, but alas, it never came. Honestly, the biggest factor in the battle- with the exception of one or two buff spells- was Balakarde's bonuses. The Paladin, for example, had the Slayer fragment, which grants a +20 insight bonus on all attack rolls- without it, none of his attacks would have hit except on a natural 20, and with it, all of his attacks had at least a 70% chance of hitting.
All else aside, I'll just take one more opportunity to say that lots of people seriously underestimate a well-prepared party.
A well prepared party is a real menace to society. But based on the descriptions you've given on how they pumped up for battle, it sounds like they earned their easy victory through some excellent use of planning and strategy.
I've noticed when gaming that it is the encounters that catch a party off guard that are the really dangerous ones. Perhaps Dragotha should have teleported away and waited for time to run its course on their buffs and then come back and smack them, but it sounds like he was pretty cocky. Although I'm not sure how cocky I'd be feeling even as a draco lich if I saw a colossal sized titan of a cleric appear in my home. That's got to be a little intimidating. Good old ninth level spells.
However, I should point out that the save on mordenkeinan's disjunction is only for their items. Their spells are negated (no save). So you would have been able to knock down their buffs but maybe not take out their items, and even their item you could probably rule would be render inoperative for 1d4 rounds even if they make the save- if they fail of course they become normal items with no magical power- it's a pretty powerful spell, I still think it might be useful.
If you don't think that could have worked crack open the epic level handbook, and design some epic level spell that would have done the trick and then give him a scroll with that on it, on some other one use magic item that he can use- like a gem of spell storing that unleashes a wave of no save, buff dispelling, suck on that against the party. Of course said party might be a little annoyed that the hour they spent preparing has suddenly been a complete waste, but it is Dragotha.
Dragotha really needs to knock out some of their buffs if he's going to do well. Maybe a rod of cancellation, or a scroll with mordenkeinan's disjunction, would give him the edge he needs to foil those buffed up characters.The players discussed that prior to the fight... they knew that really, the one thing that would probably be their downfall would be a Mordenkainen's Disjunciton spell, and so they considered having the Cleric ready an Antimagic Field spell at least for the first round of combat, in the case Dragotha tried to cast it (as MD only has a 1% chance per caster level of dstroying an Antimagic Field, so if he cast MD, they'd just throw up their readied Antimagic Field to stop it, and then on the Cleric's next turn, he could dismiss the field)- but they eventually decided not to, as that was quite a situational thing, and so instead they just did whatever they could to buff up their Will Saves (including one Miracle that allowed the Cleric a +10 on his Will Save vs. Mordenkainen's Disjunction for one combat). By the time the fight actually began, with Balakarde's bonuses, the lowest will save was around +40 or so (with the highest, I think, being a +60), so the only way they'd lose any buffs or magic items or anything is if they rolled many, many natural 1's.
Also, as for the grappling idea- they actually didn't have Freedom of Movement on (except for the Paladin), but for the last couple adventures I've decided that trying to grapple my party was pointless, as the Paladin's immune to it, the Savant/Warlock has the Flee the Scene invocation (which normally can't be used in a grapple, but I created a Still Spell-Like Ability feat for the Warlock, as it hardly seemed imbalanced), and one of the main buffs on the Cleric was a Miracle-cast Giant Size (Wu Jen spell from Complete Arcane- in short, the Cleric was a colossal creature) which gave the Cleric a better grapple check than Dragotha.
Like I said, this party was quite prepared. I looked over Dragotha's stats...
The major problems here are the differences in power between a regular party and a min/maxed party, and the differences between a non-buffed and a fully-buffed party. The same can be said for BBEGs. Give Dragotha time to buff himself (and acquire certain items such as a ring of lifewarding) and he is going to be a hell of a lot tougher than he would be if the party can get the drop on him.
I too, have considered limiting the number of spells a person can have on them at any time. I haven't yet figured a good way to do it however. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Finally, there are a few easy ways to make the Dragotha encounter much more difficult. First, give him or his allies scrolls of MDJ. Also, swap out one of Dragotha's spells for a greater anticipate teleport and antimagic field or a widened antimagic field. Let's see how the fighter holds up against Dragotha's full attack when all of his buffs are surpressed!
Just thought of one more thing only a rat-bastard DM would do: Dragotha could pick up the staff of the magic and break it on one of the PC's heads ;)
Just thought of one more thing only a rat-bastard DM would do: Dragotha could pick up the staff of the magic and break it on one of the PC's heads ;)
Ha! That's beautiful! I may just try that for amusement's sake!
Creative Director
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I think, whenever Dungeon releases an encounter with a single big bad guy, they greatly forget that three times as many actions is A BIG DEAL. They also overlook the power of a party that's well-prepared. Anyone else have similar experiences?
Well... first off: If the PCs enjoyed the encounter, I'm not sure what the problem is. They're supposed to be able to destroy Dragotha, after all; that's the point of the adventure.
As for one-on-one fights, we don't forget that the encounter favors the larger group. That's the reason you see encounters with single foes (especially BBEG foes) at CRs that are higher than the party's level. In the case of Dragotha, nearly 10 higher.
Nor do we overlook a well-prepared party in adventures. We sort of expect it. A party that's not prepared and just walks into Dragotha's lair is dead, even if they're all epic. And the reverse is true as well—a party that has been working together for 19 levels and takes the time to prepare their assault is CERTAINLY going to be able to take out tough foes. That's pretty much the point of the game at high levels. Heck, if anyone in the group can cast astral spell, they can pretty much do everything they can noramlly do and never have to worry about ever actually taking real damage to their real bodies.
One thing to keep in mind as well: Although Dragotha's certainly a tough foe, he's nowhere NEAR as tough as he'd be if I'd designed him using all of the WotC sourcebooks available. He certainly makes use of stuff from a few books, like the Draconomicon, but he can certainly be made tougher. For example, at one point he had Arcane Strike as a feat (you can see evidence of this in his statblock, since I forgot to remove it from his Combat Options). With this feat, he can sacrifice a himself an 8th level spell to gain a +8 bonus on all six of his attacks and a +8d4 damage bonus on all those attacks.
What I'm saying is that a character that takes full advantage of the wealth of character options in the books WotC has put out is going to be tougher than one who uses only the Player's Handbook. There's a bit of the "Pay more $$$ and your character will be better" thing going on here, a philosophy that kind of annoys me as a player but also one I can certainly understand as an industry professional. For Dungeon, I try to make sure that the adventures are challenging for characters who use only the core rules (and perhaps a few other books); designing adventures that take into account ALL of these options would result in adventures that are grossly difficult for most players.
All this is a way of saying: If you allow your PCs to use options from a wide range of rulebooks, you should probably allow your NPCs (at least the important ones) the same.
And again, in the end, if you and your players had fun handing Dragotha his ass, then I don't see his quick defeat as a problem in the first place.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Like I said, this party was quite prepared. I looked over Dragotha's stats for a good minute or two every round, looking for SOMETHING I could use to gain the upper hand, but alas, it never came. Honestly, the biggest factor in the battle- with the exception of one or two buff spells- was Balakarde's bonuses. The Paladin, for example, had the Slayer fragment, which grants a +20 insight bonus on all attack rolls- without it, none of his attacks would have hit except on a natural 20, and with it, all of his attacks had at least a 70% chance of hitting.
All else aside, I'll just take one more opportunity to say that lots of people seriously underestimate a well-prepared party.
I gotta say, I think your party deserves at least as much credit as anything else. They did an amazing job of planning, using resources wisely, and generally kicking ass. You should do a quick search through the various Dragotha war stories. Other than what you've posted, the only one round kill I've read was the group that shoved him through a gate into the positive energy plane, and there was a lot of rules bending for that scenario.
I don't have the iss in front of me, but does Dragotha not have any means of dispelling magic (or was that entirely irrelevant because other than MD, a dispel magic would not have had any effect)? I'm inclined to lay the problem you experienced at the feet of magical buffs. The ability to pile them on and strip them off is what pre-planned high level combat is all about.
Hats off to your players though - they kick ass.
One idea I'm toying with is allowing only one spell of each school to be active on a person at one time. While I understand that buffing is a big part of high level 3ed play, it's an aspect of the game I'd rather not have.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One idea I'm toying with is allowing only one spell of each school to be active on a person at one time. While I understand that buffing is a big part of high level 3ed play, it's an aspect of the game I'd rather not have.
Interesting idea. Rather than break it down by school, I'd probably put a limitation based on the number of spell levels (i.e., each person can have X levels of spells active on them where X is their character level divided by Y).
Another option would be to limit the number of spell levels a caster can have active at one time. So, a wizard might only be able to have X spell levels active at any one time, where X is based on caster level somehow.
Of course, there would probably be balance issues inherent in these sorts of limitations, but I definitely like the concept. I'm not happy with the way buffs work in D&D, in part because they generally have a lot of text and they effect different variables (some effect AC, some effect saves, some stack, some don't). Right now the buff spells aren't set up cleanly so that it's easy to understand what they do and what happens when they are removed without slowing the game to a crawl to research it.
I think that D&D needs more key words akin to sneak attack. The sneak attack concept is relatively complex (extra damage per attack, only if certain conditions are met, only against enemies with discernable anatomies, does not work with concealment). However, once you learn what sneak attack means, you can apply that concept quickly and easily at the table. Flanking is another similar mechanic. I'd like to see spell effects map out to keywords a lot more than they currently do.
Anyway, that might just be my own issue, and is entirely off topic.
(and people say there's nothing to be done in 4e!)
One idea I'm toying with is allowing only one spell of each school to be active on a person at one time. While I understand that buffing is a big part of high level 3ed play, it's an aspect of the game I'd rather not have.Interesting idea.
Another option would be to limit the number of spell levels a caster can have active at one time. So, a wizard might only be able to have X spell levels active at any one time, where X is based on caster level somehow.
IMO intelligence should effect this formula somehow. Perhaps X + INT bonus, where X is based on caster level.
I think that D&D needs more key words... I'd like to see spell effects map out to keywords a lot more than they currently do.
dito!
Alright... everyoine's had some really good advice, I have to say. Also, all else aside, my players DID have a good time, so I guess nothing went wrong. James Jacobs particularly hit the nail on the head- the PCs used lots of sourcebooks, and went balls to the walls when they buffed up (pardon the expression), so I guess there really couldn't have been another outcome. Once again, the players ARE supposed to beat Dragotha, regardless of how easy or difficult it may be.
However, this got me thinking... and I just flipped through the next (and last) adventure... it sounds to me like Kyuss is gonna be using a couple Miracles of his own...
...Regardless, I am NOT letting the final encounter of the campaign be a push-over, splatbooks or not.
Thanks for the advice, everyone!
Dragotha is supposed to be one of the major encounters of the campaign, so even though the players are supposed to beat him I wouldn't want them to not sweat for it. I mean with an encounter like that I'd want them beaten within a hair of their lives before they finally take him out. They got to work for a win in a battle like that and I wouldn't want all that work to happen before the battle.
However if they were debuffed they'd be slaughtered, so I guess its more fun to beat your opponent with ease than to have your butt kicked.
Alright... everyoine's had some really good advice, I have to say. Also, all else aside, my players DID have a good time, so I guess nothing went wrong. James Jacobs particularly hit the nail on the head- the PCs used lots of sourcebooks, and went balls to the walls when they buffed up (pardon the expression), so I guess there really couldn't have been another outcome. Once again, the players ARE supposed to beat Dragotha, regardless of how easy or difficult it may be.
However, this got me thinking... and I just flipped through the next (and last) adventure... it sounds to me like Kyuss is gonna be using a couple Miracles of his own...
...Regardless, I am NOT letting the final encounter of the campaign be a push-over, splatbooks or not.
Thanks for the advice, everyone!
Perhaps you can only have your level/CR/HD(?) in spells levels of buffs at any one time.
For some reason I like the idea that spells of the same school interact in strange ways so you can only have one spell of each school in effect on a creature.
Although I also like the idea of caster level + relevant ability modifier = total spell levels active at any one time, period. This of course would not include instantaneous effects.
The magic pollution article in this month's dragon might have some ideas relevant to what happens when you get too much magic coursing through your veins at one time.
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Creative Director
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Dragotha is supposed to be one of the major encounters of the campaign, so even though the players are supposed to beat him I wouldn't want them to not sweat for it. I mean with an encounter like that I'd want them beaten within a hair of their lives before they finally take him out. They got to work for a win in a battle like that and I wouldn't want all that work to happen before the battle.
However if they were debuffed they'd be slaughtered, so I guess its more fun to beat your opponent with ease than to have your butt kicked.
Planning the battle for three hours is certainly working for it, and even if the battle's over quickly, it still takes hours of real time to resolve (even if most of that time was the planning stage). In a battle like this, the fact that you get to fight an iconic D&D villian is the key element. If your plan works perfectly, that's just as exciting, I think, as an edge of the seat battle.
One of the most important lessons a DM has to learn is that every once in a while, the PCs are gonna wipe the floor with your favorite villian. I still remember the campaign I ran in college where the PCs faced off against the Four Demons of the Apocalypse; I had huge stat blocks and giant battle tactics for these four, and in one battle, the wizard won initiative and used a polymorph any object to turn the demon into a brick. One failed magic resistance check and nat 1 saving throw later, all that work went down the tubes. The players loved it (particularly the wizard) though, and today that's the only battle I remember the details to.
Sometimes, it's cool if the PCs end up being bad-ass.
I just know from my own perspective as a dm, sitting around for an hour and a half watching characters calculate buffs and figure out which spells they'll cast on themselves isn't that fun. Maybe they get more pleasure from it, so it is selfish of me to complain if they are having fun, but I'm also the one who puts the hours in outside the game table, so that should count for something.
I'm glad you remember that battle with the horse men so fondly, but you've got be a little bitter that they went down so quick after you put so much work into their stat blocks.
One of the battles I remember best was when my PC's were trying to stop this cleric of Talos from realeasing the Tarrasque. The tarrasque was sealed in this massive block of magic "ice", and the cleric had this gem that would cause the ice to melt and the monster to be freed if he was able to stick the gem into the ice block. What made this fight, so fun was that the characters had to fight their way through the minions to get to him (one of which was a red dragon), and all the while he was on the move towards his goal, so they couldn't waste valuable time buffing and planning. They had to think on their feet and move quick. The battle took a long time to play out, but I remember it being the most exciting battle I think I've ever run.
Dragotha is supposed to be one of the major encounters of the campaign, so even though the players are supposed to beat him I wouldn't want them to not sweat for it. I mean with an encounter like that I'd want them beaten within a hair of their lives before they finally take him out. They got to work for a win in a battle like that and I wouldn't want all that work to happen before the battle.
However if they were debuffed they'd be slaughtered, so I guess its more fun to beat your opponent with ease than to have your butt kicked.
Planning the battle for three hours is certainly working for it, and even if the battle's over quickly, it still takes hours of real time to resolve (even if most of that time was the planning stage). In a battle like this, the fact that you get to fight an iconic D&D villian is the key element. If your plan works perfectly, that's just as exciting, I think, as an edge of the seat battle.
One of the most important lessons a DM has to learn is that every once in a while, the PCs are gonna wipe the floor with your favorite villian. I still remember the campaign I ran in college where the PCs faced off against the Four Demons of the Apocalypse; I had huge stat blocks and giant battle tactics for these four, and in one battle, the wizard won initiative and used a polymorph any object to turn the demon into a brick. One failed magic resistance check and nat 1 saving throw later, all that work went down the tubes. The players loved it (particularly the wizard) though, and today that's the only battle I remember the details to.
Sometimes, it's cool if the PCs end up being bad-ass.
Perhaps you can only have your level/CR/HD(?) in spells levels of buffs at any one time.
For some reason I like the idea that spells of the same school interact in strange ways so you can only have one spell of each school in effect on a creature.
Although I also like the idea of caster level + relevant ability modifier = total spell levels active at any one time, period. This of course would not include instantaneous effects.
I was just thinking that combat tactics would change slightly. Realizing the opponent was all buffed up the bbeg casts Death Ward at him and his head explodes!
I like the same school interact strange ways also. I guess I'm just wondering what the effects would be. Anyone?
I have three words for the DM who wants to curb buffing in BBEG encounters:
maximized Reciprocal Gyre*evil grin*
I used part of this cycle of Age of Worms in my campaign and one of the players had a cleric who always buffed himself silly, and in one of the encounters before the climactic Dracolich encounter (I did not use Dragotha, as he did not fit with the campaign) I had a caster prepare the above spell, which does 1d12 per currently active, player-targeting buff, and got him for 120 points of damage (it sounds like you would have gotten your party for more) and stunned for one round (which is a freakin' eternity in high level combat. Since then, everybody has been keeping their buffs to a more reasonable level, in every campaign I run *g*
Perhaps you can only have your level/CR/HD(?) in spells levels of buffs at any one time.
For some reason I like the idea that spells of the same school interact in strange ways so you can only have one spell of each school in effect on a creature.
Although I also like the idea of caster level + relevant ability modifier = total spell levels active at any one time, period. This of course would not include instantaneous effects.
I was just thinking that combat tactics would change slightly. Realizing the opponent was all buffed up the bbeg casts Death Ward at him and his head explodes!
I like the same school interact strange ways also. I guess I'm just wondering what the effects would be. Anyone?
Haha, yeah, I was thinking about that too. Of course, they wouldn't know how many more spell levels the BBEG could take, so they might just be helping him by giving him buffs ;)
But, I think with a rule like this one would have to allow a creature to automatically save against (harmless) spells.
As for spells of the same school interacting, I think it might be fun to create a table of spell mishaps.
The Balakarde buffs are a bit too much for my tastes. I'll probably remove them entirely. I also don't allow full access to all spells in the books, and I wouldn't allow "western" PCs taking "eastern" spells, spells they would never encounter in my campaign (FR). I would also NEVER allow PCs to buy and/or create any magical item they want, in whatever quantity is possible by the RAW. I also make sure I limit the free time available for scribing scrolls and item creation. PCs can't just take a load off when the Age of Worms is about to engulf the world. They have things to do. Granted, if someone takes an item creation feat, he/she should be able to use it, but I would severely limit time available (unless they'd prefer to allow the bad guys time to fester and grow in power).
That's me, of course.
Concerning beefing up the Dragotha encounter:
If the PCs still have a piece of the rod, any number of arch fiends could find him/her/itself fed up with sending vassals and slaves to kill the PCs for the rod. That arch fiend (or cadre of pit fiends, etc.) could appear alongside Dragotha, making the encounter twice as deadly. Heck, buy the time the PCs make it to Dragotha, rod or no, they should still have enemies enough to warrant the surprise appearance of a dozen angry pit fiends. ;-)
Create a mob (DMG II) of avolakais that swarm over the PCs in mad devotion to Kyuss and/or Dragotha.
Add templates, character levels, or HD to Dragotha. Make the red advanced, colossal+, with, as Mr. Jacobs suggests, plenty of feats, spells, and perhaps a prestige class from Draconomicon (or even different feats from the PHB).
Have the dragon simply destroy her abode, sending the entire structure down atop herself and the PCs. Unless they can shrug off thousands of tons of stone (or use teleport, dimension door, gaseous form, or some other spell with shattered bones, pulverized organs, completely immobile), they'll be hindered severely if not killed.
Add another dracolich. Add TWO additional dracoliches. Make them all two-headed dracoliches. ;-)
Make Dragotha's breath weapon a force breath weapon that can't be avoided with energy immunity. Give him an automatic gaze attack, forcing a save every round to avoid insanity, stoning, fear, etc. Surround him in a constant nauseating stench effect, forcing another save each round.
Definitely use Mord's disjunction. Unless the cleric readies an action, Dragotha will hit with the disjunction, rendering all spells instantly nulled, and possibly nullifying magical items as well. That cleric with the readied action will be ineffective while he/she waits for Dragotha to use Mord's. Even if the dragon uses it, and the cleric uses anti-magic to avoid it, the PCs would have to be within 10' of the cleric to avoid the disjunction. Then have Dragotha "bring down the house" on the PCs, using a quickened disintegrate or her own strength to bury the PCs, who are huddled together in a convenient bundle.
I wouldn't recommend limiting PC spell buffing. At least not in game rules' terms. Make it a story thing. If you find your PCs buffing heavily, have monsters attack them. Even if buffing takes one minute's time, powerful spellcasters, fiends, undead, etc. might notice and investigate. Dragotha (or the avolakais) might even have spells in place to detect such spellcasting... or the very presence of intruders, for that matter. Wherever they are, there are ways to explain unexpected attacks, regardless of how that might annoy min/maxing players.
If I knew my party would buff heavily (which they often do), I would make darn sure that they couldn't just wipe the floor with a boss like Dragotha. Unless I wanted them to wipe the floor with a boss, they would not wipe the floor with him/her/it. It's as simple as that. The Dungeon modules can't possibly account for all party possibilities. I never leave the modules as is.
Or you could give Dragotha a scroll of Reaving Dispel.
I talked to my players about limiting buffing, and even they agreed that the concept of buffing a PC with 10 or so spells was pretty silly and too much like a videogame. We still haven't decided on a solution, but I'm sure we'll come up with something.
My PCs are a long way from this encounter, but I definitely plan on making Dragotha the toughest battle, probably even tougher than Kyuss. For one, he'll be a great wyrm, so I can use my colossal dragon mini (nothing miniature about it, really). And I'll make sure he's buffed at a level appropriate to the party, especially if they do the death ward thing.
As an aside, anyone who uses BBEGs as written without taking the skills & resources of the players & PCs into consideration deserves to be disappointed, whether it results in a TPK or your favorite villain going down in two rounds.
Of course, all the prep in the world doesn't do jack for bad die rolls, so everyone's gonna be disappointed at some point or another.
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Creative Director
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The problem, alas, isn't with too many buffing spells. The problem is that at high levels like these, the game is incredibly difficult to prepare proper challenges for a party. I mean... Dragotha, by the rules, is a CR 27 or something monster. That's 7-8 above the expected party level, yet still, even without the Balakarde buffs, the encounter doesn't play out NEARLY the same way as a 5th level party versus a beholder would play out. It's a fundamental flaw in the game, to be honest.
If your players have fun with it though, it doesn't matter if it's a flaw. And while I can understand that the DM might not be having fun during the hour or two when the PCs are talking tactics, keep in mind that the same thing hits the PCs during combat. Especially in high level combat, where a single character's turn can take 5-10 minutes or more at times. Five to ten minutes of play once every hour isn't the definition of fun either.
And in any event, if you feel that the PCs are taking too long to talk tactics, you're perfectly within reason of assuming time passes in real time and game time equally during such talks. If Dragotha knows the PCs are on their way (and he does, since they've already tangled with his minions in the previous adventure), simply have him send a few wormdrakes to attack them during the middle of their tactical discussion.
My game has experienced the power curve James has talked about. Our cleric can gain an AC of well over 50, is under a persistant Greater Blink affect, and has about 15+ spells on him most of the time. As you might expect, he takes great pains to prevent others from removing them by way of greater Dispel Magic: we wears a ring of counter spells with GDM in it, and another ring with spell turning if the first ring is triggered by dual simultaneous castings against him.
Every round thereafter, he will cast GDM into the ring as a standard action, even in lieu of helping his friends in combat - this is his only real weakness. He has to know that he will be the subject of MD spells very soon....
I also don't allow full access to all spells in the books, and I wouldn't allow "western" PCs taking "eastern" spells, spells they would never encounter in my campaign (FR). I would also NEVER allow PCs to buy and/or create any magical item they want, in whatever quantity is possible by the RAW.
This whole thread has just make me look forward even more to running Dragotha for my party. I've kept them to 28-point buy in this campaign, but I've given them action points, and their tactics are pretty solid. However, Dragotha is an excellent candidate for villain points.
In this campaign we've implemented a house rule recommended by someone else on these boards that PCs can take a max of one non-core option (race, class, feat, spell, item) per level. That way they and I will really know their options better.
If the PCs do need to buy dozens of spells, you should certainly make them spend days hunting them down. Dawn of a New Age suggests that one of the Blessed Angels might spend a few hours hunting for a talisman of the sphere.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The problem, alas, isn't with too many buffing spells. The problem is that at high levels like these, the game is incredibly difficult to prepare proper challenges for a party. I mean... Dragotha, by the rules, is a CR 27 or something monster. That's 7-8 above the expected party level, yet still, even without the Balakarde buffs, the encounter doesn't play out NEARLY the same way as a 5th level party versus a beholder would play out. It's a fundamental flaw in the game, to be honest.
My issue isn't with the power level of buff spells, so much as the complexity and accounting difficulties they create. When a dispel magic hits a buffed character, you have to calculate a series of target numbers, make the checks, then back out the effects of the spells. It's a horrendous process that makes me shudder to even consider, particularly when it gets the whole party. I think the game would benefit from streamlining or limiting buffs so that they are easier to put up and take down in combat.
That being said, I might be barking up the wrong tree entirely if the amount of complexity created by buffs pales in comparison to the rest of high level combat. I honestly haven't played enough beyond level 15 or so to say for sure.
How about you can only have buff spell levels equal to your level + 1/2 racial HD? It would force players to really strategize about which buffs to use for which characters, instead of just laying them all on.
At last they made it! The party in my first Age of Worms Campaigns (I'm currently running three separate AoW campaigns - I'm in love with this AP!!!) defeated Dragotha this morning. They used the tactic described at the beginning of this thread: they teleported in, fully buffed. They teleported in just after the end of Kings of the Rift (another adventure in which they jumped to the end, thanks to Etherealness and Mordenkainen's Disjunction spells), so they didn't have any one piece of Balakarde's soul to help them.
They were LVL 19. Dragotha's stats were exactly those described in DUNGEON. In the first round, the cleric Dimensional Locked the place, and the wizard Greater Dispelled all Dragotha's buff spells, plus he cast a Quickened Wall of Force to cut off reinforcements for the Undead Dragon. Dragotha used Greater Dispel, but all party members had a Ring of counterspells with that spell, and then used Quicken Breath (party immune to effects due to Death Ward). Then the spiked-chain fighter (Attack +41 only!) and the dual-sword rogue surrounded Dragotha. In the second round, the party did about 300 DMG to him, mostly due to the fighter's Robilar's Gambit and Deft Opportunist Feats. Dragotha full-attacked, causing about 350 DMG to the fighter, but the fighter (as all other party members) had Delay Death on (what an impossibly strong 3rd LVL cleric spell from Miniature Handbook!). Third round: Dragotha's is at about -500 HP from full health, when the wizard uses a Split Ray, Split Ray, Empowered, Sudden Maximized Disintegrate (Arcane Thesis) Spell. One ray misses, another doesn't pass SR. The third hits, and Dragotha botches the Fort save, losing more than 300 hp in the hit. Dragotha is finally dead!
The players were all exceptionally proud of this easy-seeming, but exceptionally well-prepared battle. And then, at this level of play it is exceptional that a fight lasts more than two rounds.
James, Erik, really really thanks for this incredible game experience of the Age of Worms Adventure Path.
My fight with Dragotha is going down in three hours. I've made a few changes to the fight to compensate for bad guy weaknesses and minions I didn't like...My PCs are going to teleport in! The whole thing will be pushing an EL 29-30, but what a fight its gonna be! I'll post when all is said and done. (Unless they back out at last minute, some of the players have been fiercely debating to NOT teleport in.)
