Looking for bit of advice/tips/whatever for running the seige of the keep.
Im not used to running large group encounters and struggling little bit on logistics of it.
Any one give a few pointers??
Aprreciate all help offered
Pregame preparation is key. Of course, I really like large group encounters so I nixed the module's idea of just assuming half the lizardmen were at a stalemate and added that group to the total anyway. If you're not comfortable with that, however, just stick with the easier, smaller group.
Anyway, decide before game night exactly what the tactics of the lizardmen will be (the module tells you a lot of this). Try to guess what your PCs tactics might be but don't be surprised if they pull some clever idea out of thin air. I like to preroll and note on scrap paper or index cards each lizard squad's attack rolls (& notes on tactics. ie, round 1, squad two moves to such & such place; round 2, attack either garrison soldiers or nearest PC; 14,19,10,5). Then, on game night, when the battle is actually engaged you can just read your attack roll and add any modifiers. This helps speed the battle and doesn't distract you by having to stop and roll a bunch of dice.
Overall, though, I wouldn't stress too much over this battle nor (despite my earlier advice) invest too much time in planning it all out to minute detail. You'll be surprised, I think, how quickly the whole thing is done and over with. This was ranked as one of the cakewalks of the campaign and most previous DMs/players just rolled right through it. It's meant to seem overwhelming and yet be deceptively simple. The battle is a bit of a morale booster for the players. Let them enjoy it!
Despite what the author wrote in the adventure itself, this battle ends up being one of the biggest Cake Walks in the entire adventure path. Almost everyone who's posted here in the past is agreed that the lizard folk are no threat to the PCs, and the PCs win very easily.
That said, here's what I did; I assumed the PCs would win easily once they started fighting - use this battle to demonstrate to the PCs how much more powerful they've become.
- I set the map up, and scattered groups (8 or 12 lizardfolk each) around the map, probably about 6 such groups. I decided each group would move to engage the enemy once they realized there was an enemy to fight; thus, the PCs would be fighting multiple waves of lizardfolk once they revealed themselves.
- I added a small group of "individuals" who consisted of the lizardfolk leader, the lizardfolk druid and animal companion, a couple of "bodyguards" (normal lizardfolk), and then a diplomatic party consisting of a shaman and several warrior lizardfolk from another tribe. They were almost around to the other side of the keep from the PCs, with no stealthy approach possible - the PCs would have to fight their way to that part of the field in order to attack them.
- I had Allustan correctly interpret and explain to the PCs about the diplomatic banner being held aloft by the other lizardfolk - that their garb showed they were a separate tribe, their peace-banner meant they would not take part in the current war, and they were probably there to decide whether or not to join the war that the one tribe was engaged in. Allustan said there was no telling how many tribes had already joined the war, so he was going to teleport to mobilize the garrison, and he assured the PCs that they could handle this situation without his help in the meantime - he had "great confidence" in their abilities.
- The PCs in my group approached from behind a ridge, so were able to decide how and when to launch their attack. Like most others who posted here in the past, my group decided on a frontal assault and charged right down the slope.
- They discovered that the lizardfolk died easily, and managed to kill all the one tribe, but didn't attack the diplomatic party, and then talked with them afterward. The diplomatic party agreed that they did not want to join the one group's war effort - they also were able to give some idea of where the dead lizardfolk's tribal headquarters was located. They did not agree to serve as guides, saying they needed to get back to their tribe with the decision to stop mobilizing for joining this war.
I would suggest you concentrate on trying to describe the situation, rather than try and lay it all out in front of them with figures on a battle mat (or two). When I ran it, I tried to give the impression of a keep under siege by a mini army, and the players never thought for a second that they could take the army on and win (of course, as has been noted elsewhere, they probably could have). Instead, they came up with a plan to do some reconnaissance, and have some of the party storm the entrance under the cover of invisibility, with the rest following on horse-back once the front door was open. All this without needing Allustan's prodding (he never accompanied them in my game).
It worked really well for them, and was not a major for me, I just concentrated on the lizardfolk at the door and used a marker for each other group around the keep to show how they reacted in trying to get to the door, fighting the people in the keep, etc (I didn't run combat for those groups, just made up indicative results for flavour).
The only other thing I'd say is that my players were amazed at how small the keep actually was (Shoe Box was the description that came to mind) - they had imagined something much bigger until I put the battle-mat down (doesn't help that the picture I showed them as they approached reinforced this impression of a large keep).
Anyway, good luck, you'll be fine if you give your players time to formulate a plan of action, then concentrate on what materially affects the PC's and just gloss over the rest.
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When I ran this encounter for my players, we used miniatures on a hand-drawn battle grid of the tower and its environment. It worked out well in spite of (or perhaps because of) a few incidental decisions:
I somehow managed to misplace my poster map that came with the issue (and there is no smaller copy of it in the magazine for reference), so I drew it up on the fly from memory and my own sense of where things would be. In the process, I gave my players a HUGE tactical advantage by having them looking down on the keep from a tall ridge, with the road to the keep cutting through a narrow pass. The lizardfolk army was spread out below them, with no quick way to engage the PCs in melee.
My party included a mage and psion (in addition to a rogue who felt rather un-needed during this fight based on the way it played out). They left their horses and Beaky (yes, they still have the baby owlbear in tow and yes, it ended up being named 'Beaky') back out of sight and took up positions on the ridge.
Much ranged carnage then took place, as the casters opened fire on the huddled lizardfolk with their most damaging area of effect spells and powers. I had the lizardfolk squads abandon their positions to charge up the pass and up the cliff to the PCs, and some did make it up there to engage them in melee...but they were so badly beaten by the time they got up there that there really was no fight at all. The PCs hardly took any damage in the whole fight. This assault did use up almost all of the psion's power points and all of the mage's best spells, however, and if the army had pressed on in spite of the casualties, they probably would have overcome the exhausted party--but they had no way of knowing that the casters were out of juice, so the survivors routed. About a third of the lizardfolk escaped back into the Mistmarsh (including the druid, though its animal companion wasn't so lucky).
It left the players with a feeling that reminds me of the extended scene in Aliens where the aliens are driven off by sentry guns that have almost run out of ammo: if the monsters come back, they walk right up and knock...but they don't know that, so the nervous heroes can breathe a sigh of relief.
Now, we played this out using D&D RPG rules, but it could actually be beneficial to play it using D&D miniatures rules. If you want to run it with all the miniatures on the table at once, like I did, it could make the fight go more quickly to do it that way.
Anyway, the challenge presented by this encounter depends greatly on the class balance of the party. A strong damage-dealing caster party can make quick work of the low-hp lizardfolk, but I imagine a melee-based party could end up mobbed by enemies in short order. Low attack bonuses don't matter so much if the enemy is rolling 32 of them each round against one surrounded PC. (Claw/claw/bite x 8 lizardfolk around a medium-sized creature = PC hamburger.) If the players know their party's strengths and play to those strengths, though, they should be able to overcome the encounter smoothly.
By the way, WotC has a free paper model of a tower at the following URL that should serve as a nice centerpiece for the battle:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fpm/archive
Look for "Tower, Intact and Ruined."
I have the model built, but it didn't occur to me until after the session that it would have come in handy in the fight. Its about the right size for the keep's aboveground structure. Doh!
I used the above tower for my battle. Basically took a screen shot of it, stretched it to the size I wanted, printed it out on card stock and taped it all together. I then printed out the floorplan maps the same way, then sat them on top of each story. It was sturdy enough that I was able to put miniatures on the balcony (which, although two-dimensional, still looked good) and the roof.
Got some horse miniatures to represent the dead ones (they were used for cover at one point).
I really jacked up the battle by adding different type of lizardfolk (blackscale and poison dusk) as well as a couple dragonkin. We actually had a death in this battle (look for Randalf in the Obituaries).
The best advice I have, if you want to do this kind of battle, is to have the baddies move and act in squads. They should all have the same stats, so you just roll 6 d20s or whatever and count the hits.
If anyone is interested in the statblocks for this mob, send me a hotmail at khays3 and I'll see what I can do.
I was about to start a new thread when I read this thread so I will add what I know and ask further questions that may additionally help the OP.
I ended the last session with the PC's overlooking the situation from a big hill some distance away. What my PC's came up with astounded me and made me think that there is no way this is a challenge what so ever (I had concerns of this before hand but now my worst fears are confirmed).
Before I get into their plans let me just say that I recommend that DM's find a better hook for Allustan than teleporting away to get help ASAP. My group found that to be really weak and no matter the spin I put on it, it sounded lame. In addition, they figured at the very least he could cast some helpful spells before he teleports away (like fly for instance) which further reduces the challenge of the adventure.
In hind sight I think I would have Allustan ask the group to go to Blackwall Keep to fetch Marzena (I think thats her name) while he stays home and would provide some way of communiation with them so they could inform him of any situations that arise on their journey. He could at least mentor them without directly affecting the battle. I would also remove teleport from his known spells so he couldn't pop up whenever they need him.
Anyways, on to the specifics of the seige. I set up 8 groups of 5 lizardmen at various distances around the tower and described them as behind cover from the front and it was angled to prevent arrows from any height. I thought I was smart with this description. Apparantly, I wasn't. My PC's have decided to use some fly scrolls, plus the fly spell from Allustan to take to the battle from the air. Additionally, the druid in the group (and BTW we have a cleric (with travel domain), druid, rogue and ranger which means no true fighter and no true arcane caster) will use several of his entangle spells and summon spells to keep a good chunk of the groups busy. The entangle is particularly bad as it is such a big area that it can affect 2 groups at a time so with 2 castings he can effectively eliminate 4 groups of lizardmen.
With the attacks from the air, potential help from the tower and a few other casted spells to buff the party before the fight this is going to be one lopsided fight. My biggest issue is this: Allustan as per the module teleports away to get help that will arrive in several days but its not really needed as the PC's will clean this up in under 5 minutes of fighting. Very anticlimactic feeling since an 8th level mage takes off to bring support for the keep.
So after saying all that, any ideas on how to turn this into something that isn't a cakewalk? A few ideas I had was 1) a wizard/sorceror is hiding in the bushes a ways away ready to support. A fireball or two or perhaps a dispel magic to lose the flight (only to be surrounded by lizardfolk would be interesting) would spice things up 2) more reinforcements are on their way. The PC's have to leave and are unable to be pivotal in the next battle if they are to save Marzena's life. This option at least makes Allustan's fetching of reinforcements a useful act.
Does anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks.
Rather strangely my original post was before the last but it didn't seem to work. Anyways...
I was thinking of running this as the second module in the AP and running TFoE afterwards. Do you think it would work with weaker characters better. TFoE could easily increase in CR for the third module.
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Interesting idea, Peebo. I suppose it depends partly on the makeup of your group, but I think that 3rd level characters would definately have a real challenge ahead of them taking on Encounter at Blackwall Keep as written. I wouldn't swap the two adventures unless you intended to tone down the mistmarsh encounters a good deal. (The keep encounter isn't as difficult as it could be, but later encounters are quite challenging.)
Strachan, I think the Keep encounter may prove to be more difficult for your players than you or they think. The party doesn't sound like it has a lot of ranged damage potential, so even with the flight magic (duration is only 1 minute per level of caster), I don't think they'll be able to kill the lizardfolk fast enough to prevent significant retaliation. The entangle is a nice idea to control the crowd temporarily, but the lizardfolk will be able to break free and move out of the effected area before the full duration (same duration as the fly spell), and some of them will make the save and be able to enter combat almost immediately.
Important points working against your players:
1) Finite numbers of arrows. Unless your ranger came equipped for a prolonged siege, he or she probably doesn't have enough arrows to defeat all of the lizardfolk.
2) Obvious threat. Flying characters send a very strong message to the lizardfolk: "Kill these guys first!" If the PCs manage to stay out of range of the lizardfolk but can still pick them off, this message changes to "Get under cover fast and come back later!"
If the army slinks away into the swamp and comes back after the spells have worn off but before your casters can prepare them again, the PCs have lost one of their strongest advantages (the element of surprise) and gained only a short reprieve for the soldiers in the keep. Worse, the players might end up trapped in the keep with the soldiers. (Though that could be a very fun way to play this encounter, too.)
If it does turn out that the battle is a cakewalk for your PCs, though, and you feel it's creating an anticlimactic situation, you have a couple of options, as others have mentioned...you can boost the stats of the lizardfolk by giving them all a level or two of fighter (or rogue, or anything else that sounds useful), or you can have reinforcements show up from the swamp just as the PCs are getting really confident. (Or both, but you should be careful that your changes don't swing the encounter too far into the dificult side of things; if you force the PCs to flee, the main plot doesn't advance.)
I think that Christopher has some excellent points. Flying characters are a pretty big neon sign saying, "Helloooo, we're over here! And we're an obvious serious threat so pay attention to us!" I think that it would be likely that the lizardfolk would stop attacking the keep and assemble a squad to test the mettle of this new threat. After a couple of lizardfolk fell, I can definitely see them running for cover under the eaves of the mistmarsh. Then you're back on track with the adventure, it's just that the PC's are inside with the soldiers. The lizardfolk return with their barricades (providing them some cover from fireballs too!) and they can start pounding on the door. The PCs will still mop the floor with them, but that's fine.
To keep the pressure on and the timing right, you might have a little role-playing with the soldiers before they even let the PC's in. Why should the garrison trust a strike force flying in from out of the blue? Maybe they talk amongst themselves for a minute or two before admitting the PC's. It's only a few minutes after that that the lizardfolk return with barricades and battering rams in hand. Thus, the fly spells have time to expire but the PCs don't have time to explore the basement. The soldiers will have an opportunity to display the chaos which comes from not having a commanding officer (hence the delay and lack of decision about whether to let the PC's in) and a chance to explain about the captives taken during the last attack. So PC's can have a fun and quick battle with the invading lizardfolk and then rush off to save the day as scripted.
Thanks to the last two posters. Good insight there.
After reading your thoughts and giving it some thought I plan to incorporate some of those elements into the game.
Christopher, I believe it was you who mentioned that the entangle wouldn't be such a hindrance but in this case I think it will be. The druid plans to cast entangle twice, spike growth once or twice and sleet storm at least once. Although this takes a while to cast the area of effect is large and will effectively take out large numbers of lizardfolk for the fight.
I do plan to have them retreat and them come back after the party's best spells have been used. My only worry is that they will die before they can.
Anyways I really like the idea of the soldiers not letting them in right away so I will use that.
The other thing I plan to use is once the party gets inside the soldiers will inform the PC's that this is only the first wave and that others are coming. This will make Allustan's retrieval of reinforcements seem necessary.
When I DMed this module, I had Allustan's excuse for leaving be purposely lame. It was suggested in a now-archived thread that Allustan could just be cowardly. I really enjoyed this twist and have appreciated its results since. Not every "good guy" needs to meet the highest standards and his cowardice is also a convenient explanation to why he has dissolved past relationships with his mentor, collegues, and even apprentices (like Marzena). Also one of the characters in the group was his current apprentice and his display of cowardice at Blackwall helped pave the way for the eventual parting of ways. Basically, Allustan likes his magic but doesn't really have the stomach to take his act on the road - which also explains why he hasn't been accompanying the party all along and just hangs back researching and sending them off in various directions for advice from others. In the end, by the time A Gathering of Winds happened, the party was interested enough to rescue him but, at the same time, ready to cut his dead weight off their backs and strike out on their own without any real further input from Diamond Lake's "smartest man".
This whole concept also appealed to me because it adds a touch of realism. When you're a kid (or just kinda young and niave adult) you are impressed and awed by someone but the more time you spend with that person or the more you advance in your own intellect & maturity the less appealing that person becomes and the more apparent that "hero"'s flaws become.
Anyway, I think you're second wave of attackers adds credibility to Allustan's hasty retreat but you might also want to consider a little character flaw in the great wizard to flesh him out fully. Just a thought.
When I DMed this module, I had Allustan's excuse for leaving be purposely lame. It was suggested in a now-archived thread that Allustan could just be cowardly. I really enjoyed this twist and have appreciated its results since. Not every "good guy" needs to meet the highest standards and his cowardice is also a convenient explanation to why he has dissolved past relationships with his mentor, collegues, and even apprentices (like Marzena). Also one of the characters in the group was his current apprentice and his display of cowardice at Blackwall helped pave the way for the eventual parting of ways. Basically, Allustan likes his magic but doesn't really have the stomach to take his act on the road - which also explains why he hasn't been accompanying the party all along and just hangs back researching and sending them off in various directions for advice from others. In the end, by the time A Gathering of Winds happened, the party was interested enough to rescue him but, at the same time, ready to cut his dead weight off their backs and strike out on their own without any real further input from Diamond Lake's "smartest man".
This whole concept also appealed to me because it adds a touch of realism. When you're a kid (or just kinda young and niave adult) you are impressed and awed by someone but the more time you spend with that person or the more you advance in your own intellect & maturity the less appealing that person becomes and the more apparent that "hero"'s flaws become.
Anyway, I think you're second wave of attackers adds credibility to Allustan's hasty retreat but you might also want to consider a little character flaw in the great wizard to flesh him out fully. Just a thought.
I like that. I like that a lot. I think I will try to portray the ideas you presented. Allustan, isn't a hero, but that doesn't mean he won't try to help out. Hence, his decision to get help from the town guard. And like you said it fits with why he is in Diamond Lake and not somewhere else.
Tonight is my next session so I'll let you know how it goes.
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I agree that the "cowardly Allustan" concept has a lot of merit (adds realism, shines more spotlight on PCs, etc), but in my campaign I needed to make him more valiant during Three Faces of Evil to help advance the plot.*
So, when it came time to start Blackwall Keep, I purposely kept Allustan from looking like a coward. Because he had lied to get a squad of soldiers from the garrison to accompany him on a mission that caused some of their deaths (see below for more info), he needed to deal with the ramifications. When word came from Marzena about the worms, he had to go the otherway--to the Free City--to answer an inquiry about the event and clear the name of one of the survivors (a guest PC at the time) who had been accused of dereliction of duty because of it. Thus, he asked the PCs to go to the keep and talk to Marzena, so they were on their own for the siege and the rest of the adventure. It worked out well; none of them has questioned Allustan's courage (just his competance), and his nobility in trying to make things right for the surviving soldier seems to have maintained their respect for him. (Even though the PCs are anything but noble, themselves.) I think will be important later on, when they have to save his butt again in "A Gathering of Winds".
So, if you don't want to make Allustan a coward, give him some unavoidable and significant business elsewhere that just can't wait. Maybe even another clue regarding this 'Age of Worms', that is distant enough and urgent enough that he has to use his teleport to get there, leaving the PCs to head to the Mistmarsh alone.
* In my campaign, the players didn't take the hooks for 3FoE (their desire to leave town was greater than their curiosity about Dourstone Mine), so I had to improvise. One night when they went to visit Allustan, they found his home empty, with a crumpled note on the floor that appeared to be a letter from his apprentice (my in-party NPC) asking him to come to a location outside of town and bring the green worm the PCs had given him. This was a trick set up by the Ebon Triad to recover the evidence of their activities that had been stolen by Smenk and delivered to Filge. Damage control, basically. Allustan didn't fall for it (he knows his apprentice's handwriting very well) but he did misinterpret it as a sign that the PCs had been captured, so he left the worm in a secure place and gathered a squad of soldiers from the garrison (using some deceptive pretences--he claimed his brother the governor-mayor had sent him) and went to the rendezvous. He and the soldiers were overcome by a mix of humans and grimlocks from the Dark Cathedral (silence spells suck when you're a caster being ambushed), and taken to the Temple of Hextor. The PCs arrived shortly thereafter, and because of how close they had grown to Allustan and the fact that he had been trying to save them when he was taken, they ended up going head-first into the rest of the adventure--not to investigate, but to rescue.
Hey Christopher,
That'a another pretty good take. Although I am still taking the cowardly route my PC's still have some respect for him. They have gone to him many times and they know that he knows his stuff. Quite often he has provided more info than they could find out themselves, particularly with the Wind Dukes of Aaqua. In fact the relationship has gone so far that Allustan had offered to cast spells for free (materinal components not withstanding) if the PC's would help him in the future. Of course his request was to be escorted to Blackwall Keep which actually gave them a good reason to start this adventure.
I think using the angle that Allustan is not a hero, but a true sage who can always assist them still makes it a strong hook when it comes time to save him in the future. Anyways, with me now knowing Allustan's role better it allows me to portray him in the proper light.
So my advice to everyone - understand Allustans role in your campaign and it will help you to portray him properly.
Thanks again everyone.
I could never make Allustan a coward.
In my game, however, he does have flaws. He's loyal to his brother, despite evidence that Governor Neff isn't the most devoted public servant. He's vain about his chess playing abilities. He's almost irrational in his insistence that the players avoid contact with the members of the cult of the Green Lady. And he's given to bouts of melencholy (probably pining for his sorceress friend up at the Blackwall keep).