Director of Games
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I don't know if I would say "stuck". Suffice to say, there is a CR 24 version in the Book of Vile Darkness. If neither of these are meaty enough for your group, the Fiendish Codex offers some good guidelines for pumping up your 6-fingered demon lord.
Jason Bulmahn
Managing Editor of Dragon
and whether it's 353, 357, 361, or some future issue, Demonomicon is likely to pick him up at some point regardless. :)
and whether it's 353, 357, 361, or some future issue, Demonomicon is likely to pick him up at some point regardless. :)
I would be willing to bet that Graz'zt is coming fairly soon, but I think that James will finish the newer demon lords (Malcanthet, Pale Night & Obox-Ob) first. After that, he will probably move on to Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, etc...)
My guess is that Demogorgon will come in around CR 32 since he's the strongest and Graz'zt will be about 31. Same with Orcus. Yeenoghu and Jubilex will be about 22 or 23 since they are considered the weakest. Dagon was a 30 which is about right considering his place on the scale.
Next must come the yugoloths. Must have yugoloths. Yugoloth lords... Sorry. Kind of lost myself there. :)
Next must come the yugoloths. Must have yugoloths. Yugoloth lords... Sorry. Kind of lost myself there. :)
no, it's quite understandable, really. :)
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and whether it's 353, 357, 361, or some future issue, Demonomicon is likely to pick him up at some point regardless. :)I would be willing to bet that Graz'zt is coming fairly soon, but I think that James will finish the newer demon lords (Malcanthet, Pale Night & Obox-Ob) first. After that, he will probably move on to Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, etc...)
My guess is that Demogorgon will come in around CR 32 since he's the strongest and Graz'zt will be about 31. Same with Orcus. Yeenoghu and Jubilex will be about 22 or 23 since they are considered the weakest. Dagon was a 30 which is about right considering his place on the scale.
Next must come the yugoloths. Must have yugoloths. Yugoloth lords... Sorry. Kind of lost myself there. :)
I fully expect Demogorgon to be the one after this next one. So the one in issue 357 I guess. The reason I think that is they are almost certain to do a Demo one to tie into the STAP in dungeon. In fact, there was a letter in Dragon 347 Scale Mail that pretty much confirms there will be a Demonomicon article done on Demogorgon to coincide with the STAP.
I fully expect Demogorgon to be the one after this next one. So the one in issue 357 I guess. The reason I think that is they are almost certain to do a Demo one to tie into the STAP in dungeon. In fact, there was a letter in Dragon 347 Scale Mail that pretty much confirms there will be a Demonomicon article done on Demogorgon to coincide with the STAP.
Okay. Cool. I would love to see Demogorgon done ASAP. I just surmised that since so much has been done on "the big five," they might opt to finish the "new nine" first. Your theory is probably right. I guarantee he won't be in 353 as CR 28 (assuming James was not yanking our chains which I don't think he was...)isn't anywhere close to the "PRINCE OF DEMONS!"
I wonder who's gonna appear in #666?
how many of us will still be playing D&D in 2032 to find out? :)
I hope to be! I'll only be fifty-two, for the gods' sake.
Though, it will actually be the April 2033 issue that's numbered 666.
Question: If the FC I lists a demon as a DR 22, and the BoVD list it as a 24, and then the Demonicon in Dragon lists it as a 32...what the heck is the real CR? Which is considered "official" and why are they so different? They should be the same in each one, right?
those chaotic demons like to be confusing. ;)
the correct answer is: whichever version, if any, your DM wants to use. :)
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Creative Director
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Question: If the FC I lists a demon as a DR 22, and the BoVD list it as a 24, and then the Demonicon in Dragon lists it as a 32...what the heck is the real CR? Which is considered "official" and why are they so different? They should be the same in each one, right?
They're all official.
Basically, if you want to have your PCs fight demon lords, they should be among the toughest foes they'll face. They're great for end-campaign bosses. And since everyone's game ends at a different level, it's counter-productive to peg down demon lord CRs at one number. A CR 23 demon lord is a great end-boss for a campaign that ends at level 15 or 16. For a campaign that ends at level 20, the CR 26–28 works better. And so on.
In my view, the demon lords from FC1 are best thought of as baselines. A demon lord won't be less powerful than those stats, and in fact, those stats were intended to represent aspects or avatars of the demon lords (a concept that was woefully understated in the book, alas). As far as I'm concerned, the actual Demon Lords themselves are best represented by the stats in the Demonomicon articles, in a range of CR 24 to CR 32.
That said, once CR goes above the 20s, it starts to break down. PCs have a huge amount of resources by the time they get close to 20th level, and a lot of those resources include instant-kill type attacks. With this increase in randomness (no matter how tough you are, a natural 1 is still a failed save), it makes high CR creatuers MUCH harder to estimate how tough a fight with them will be.
Humour me for a moment and slightly off the point but -
In SCAP the main villian Adimarchus has a direct rivalry with our six fingered friend. It is his son Anthux who decieves the fallen angel and eventually imprisions him, sending him mad and sparking the Cauldron campaign.
Is Anthux written up anywhere?
What would his CR be?
Does he (or do you believe he should) share any of his fathers unique powers/abilities?
Thanks
Delvesdeep
Humour me for a moment and slightly off the point but -
In SCAP the main villian Adimarchus has a direct rivalry with our six fingered friend. It is his son Anthux who decieves the fallen angel and eventually imprisions him, sending him mad and sparking the Cauldron campaign.
Is Anthux written up anywhere?
What would his CR be?
Does he (or do you believe he should) share any of his fathers unique powers/abilities?
Thanks
Delvesdeep
Athux is noted as a prominent offspring of Graz'zt in Hordes of the Abyss, but no stats or levels are given. I would assume that since he was the child of Graz'zt and a powerful drow, he should have a pretty hefty challenge rating, just below his father.
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Creative Director
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Is Anthux written up anywhere?
Not yet.
What would his CR be?
I'd guess it'd be something around 22-23.
Does he (or do you believe he should) share any of his fathers unique powers/abilities?
Graz'zt actually doesn't have many unique powers, as far as demon lords are concerned. You could probably do a pretty good Anthux by making him simply a half-fiend. Keep in mind also that one of Graz'zt's sons ended up becoming a demigod as well, so that indicates to me that any of his sons could have any number of unique powers of their own.
Does he (or do you believe he should) share any of his fathers unique powers/abilities?
If they're unique abilities, doesn't that sort of imply that nobody else has 'em? ;)
If they're unique abilities, doesn't that sort of imply that nobody else has 'em? ;)Does he (or do you believe he should) share any of his fathers unique powers/abilities?
There's one on every thread! Next you'll be picking me up on my speling erors.... ;)
Thanks James and James. I'm hoping to throw Anthux at the party near the conclusion to the SCAP so I'll have to have a think about what possible powers/abilities to give him.
Thankyou once again
Delvesdeep
Okay, here are a few more questions for you James: We've been through the "can't tell 'ya who's up next" thing, so can you tell us if you are going to finish the "new three" lords before the "old five?"
Also, any word yet on Fiendish Codex III "Mercenaries of Gehenna?" (my concept title - let the royalties flow...) jk
Any thoughts on what Cabiri would look like or be statted at? (other than the many eyes)
Thanks
Also, any word yet on Fiendish Codex III "Mercenaries of Gehenna?" (my concept title - let the royalties flow...) jk
Thanks
I agree! Bring on FC III!!! (and IV, and V, and...you get the picture)
Question: If the FC I lists a demon as a DR 22, and the BoVD list it as a 24, and then the Demonicon in Dragon lists it as a 32...what the heck is the real CR? Which is considered "official" and why are they so different? They should be the same in each one, right?They're all official.
Basically, if you want to have your PCs fight demon lords, they should be among the toughest foes they'll face. They're great for end-campaign bosses. And since everyone's game ends at a different level, it's counter-productive to peg down demon lord CRs at one number. A CR 23 demon lord is a great end-boss for a campaign that ends at level 15 or 16. For a campaign that ends at level 20, the CR 26–28 works better. And so on.
In my view, the demon lords from FC1 are best thought of as baselines. A demon lord won't be less powerful than those stats, and in fact, those stats were intended to represent aspects or avatars of the demon lords (a concept that was woefully understated in the book, alas). As far as I'm concerned, the actual Demon Lords themselves are best represented by the stats in the Demonomicon articles, in a range of CR 24 to CR 32.
That said, once CR goes above the 20s, it starts to break down. PCs have a huge amount of resources by the time they get close to 20th level, and a lot of those resources include instant-kill type attacks. With this increase in randomness (no matter how tough you are, a natural 1 is still a failed save), it makes high CR creatuers MUCH harder to estimate how tough a fight with them will be.
James, thank you very much. I've always felt the higher DCs were more "realistic". Of course we're talking about a fantasy game so I put it in quotes.
You bring up a good point regarding natural 1s and 20s. I am seriously considering a house rule that would treat saves and attack rolls the same as skill checks and thus there would be no automatics. Let's face it, there is no way Farmer Brown would have a 5% chance to hit Demogorgon no matter what! I know, damage reduction, blah blah, but you get my point.
Does anybosy else feel the same way?
dont care if u can or cant tell me if its gonna happen, dont care if its in a few issues, or a year or so down the line, dont care if the big five or the whichever are finished or not, all i know is i seriously seriously want a Demonomicon article on Rhyxali, Queen of the Shadow Demons..
so get to it!!
so, does this mean that Malcanthet is CR 28? :)
You bring up a good point regarding natural 1s and 20s. I am seriously considering a house rule that would treat saves and attack rolls the same as skill checks and thus there would be no automatics. Let's face it, there is no way Farmer Brown would have a 5% chance to hit...
I believe otherwise. Chaos exists everywhere, especially combat. The chance for anything to happen in a fantasy game can be slimmer than the smallest molecule...but it's still a chance it will happen.
The natural 1 and 20 represents that random factor that no mortal should ever control and can be the cause of about anything. Which is why deities do not automatically fail their attacks or saves when they roll a 1.
As expected, Demogorgon is next.
Posted on ENWorld:
Dragon 357
This month’s issue delves into the deep wilderness, with articles on arcane botanica, falconry, hunting dogs, and primitive totems. The Demonomicon of Iggwilv turns its blasphemous attention to Demogorgon, the Prince of Demons, and The Ecology of the Titan sheds new light on one of D&D’s most mysterious (and powerful) creatures.
of course - what have i been saying all along? ;)
As much as Graz'zt and Orcus, being the other two "big boys" among the Demon Lords, deserve their due eventually, for my money it would be better to space them out - I'd love to see Obox-ob, Pale Night, or even some of the demon lords mentioned in Faces of Evil such as Alvarez, the Purging Duke.
Another contender is Juiblex, of course. Heh, maybe we could get a 3.5 oozemaster prestige class to go with it, hmm? ;)