Greetings all,
I have a question which I hope you can help me with. The Fighter in my campaign is using a spiked chain, and for reasons which we will not go into, I want to teach him a lesson about not packing a spare weapon.
Since he is an inveterate rules lawyer, I can anticipate that when the moment comes for me to attempt to sunder the spiked chain, he will go a little North Korea on me. I wish to seem erudite, informed and composed during this event, so, without further ado, my question:
What is a spiked chain considered for sundering purposes? It's not a metal hafted weapon, blade, or hafted at all for that matter...
My vote is treating it as a chain (hardness 10, hit points 5) and including the bonus for a +1 magic item to bring it to hardness 12, hit points 15.
Does anyone have any input or opinion regarding this matter?
Thanks in Advance,
-Z
i think you hit the nail on the head there with the way you are treating it. its how i would do it in my game. heck why dont you just Metal to wood or Rusting grasp it? let him argue with that...
i think you hit the nail on the head there with the way you are treating it. its how i would do it in my game. heck why dont you just Metal to wood or Rusting grasp it? let him argue with that...
I love the metal to wood, and then maybe even warp wood (if that's possible) afterwards *evil grin*...
Unfortunately, two encounters ago, I faced the party with a trio of low level NPC's and a Rust dragon and as soon as he got wind of that scenario he played excruciatingly conservative, albeit cleverly, and stayed (staid?) out of the room altogether... Coward *wicked grin*Thanks for the input.
if you dont use the Metal to Wood idea go with Rusting Grasp on a weapon. i have done that before. sadly sometimes you have to teach a player a lesson... ALLWAYS carry a extra weapon... even if it is only a dagger...
There's always rust...
Heat metal also...Teaches people the joy of weilding spears and bows rather quickly.
Yes treat it as a chain.
I like to do the same thing to my players by making them not rely or base their character's lives on "Oh look at this magic/psionic item" by using the wonderful Sunder attacks.
Though I wonder what the hardness rating and hp is for magic items? Like, say, an amulet of health +2? Then, would it have more hardness and hp if it was an amulet of health +4 or +6? Or say, trying to sunder a Cloak of Resistance +5. Magic armor, shields, and weapons gain hardness and HP as they increase in enhancement bonus, maybe magic/psionic items outside that category would gain hardness and HP based off caster level, just like with saving throws?
I might have read somewhere about that, but then maybe I haven't. Does anyone else know? Heck, it'd be one cool Dragon article.
Yup, build up a "monk" who's actually a fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm along with a healthy dose of spiked chain feats.
I am reminded of a post long ago (not sure if it was here or on the WotC boards) wherein someone wanted to know how far his +1 distance javelin would fly when his fighter with Far Shot threw it. I answered his question, and then asked him what he was going to do when his enemy decided, "Hey, I've got 8,301 gp sticking in my chest, and that guy's too far away to chase me down. I'm out of here!" and then went and traded it for a +1 melee beatdown weapon to bring to the next fight. It was somewhat amusing...
TK
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Yup, build up a "monk" who's actually a fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm along with a healthy dose of spiked chain feats.
I am reminded of a post long ago (not sure if it was here or on the WotC boards) wherein someone wanted to know how far his +1 distance javelin would fly when his fighter with Far Shot threw it. I answered his question, and then asked him what he was going to do when his enemy decided, "Hey, I've got 8,301 gp sticking in my chest, and that guy's too far away to chase me down. I'm out of here!" and then went and traded it for a +1 melee beatdown weapon to bring to the next fight. It was somewhat amusing...
TK
Hee-hee. Too cool.
FH
My vote is treating it as a chain (hardness 10, hit points 5) and including the bonus for a +1 magic item to bring it to hardness 12, hit points 15.
Does anyone have any input or opinion regarding this matter?
The 10-foot long chain you speak of weighs 2 lbs. A spiked chain (which is presumably of similar length, certainly not much more) weighs 10 lbs. That suggests a spiked chain, being designed for use as a weapon, is considerably thicker and sturdier than the 10-foot length of chain with 5 hp and a Break DC of 26.
To be fair to your player, I'd triple (maybe even quadruple) the base hit points. Hardness, of course, remains the same.
Although, if you consider the PHB spiked chain illustration to be correct (many don't, but one could argue that illustrations are part of the RAW) then the extra 8 pounds of weight would be those bloody huge spikes.
Personally, I like my spike chain a bit more on the slim side, with half inch spikes running up and down the length of it, weighs 5 pounds, and is weilded at a -2 unless the wielder has a pair of tough gloves or gauntlets.
Course, I go into whether characters sleep in their gear, and it makes the spiked chain fighter a little more cautious about disrobing completely before bed. My last one was more concerned about his gloves than the chain itself!
Well I would probably give Lobo a benefit of +2 to the AC of the item because it isn't rigid. But then I would also probably go after him with an illusion that made the chain appear as a giant serpent and then let the guy sunder it himself - or if the CR on the bad guy was high enough say that the attacks of the snake were the fighter bashing himself with it.
Spiked chain (shudder)- a weapon for demons not PCs imo.
Hey all, thanks for the response.
I had planned to use an advanced Hook Horror to perpetrate the deed, but a Monkly combatant would be nice, perhaps some sort of devil or demon with Monk and/or Fighter levels and improved natural weapon?
I would shy away from tripling the hp and hardness of the weapon because the toughest weapon on the common weapons etc. list is hardness 10, hp 20, and that is a single handed metal hafted weapon like a metal club or mace. I think busting one link in a chain is relatively more easy than going through a few inch thick rod of steel. I may consider doubling hp and hardness for the reasons enumerated.
Since magic items add +2 to hardness and +10 to hp, I better get to it before he gets an upgrade.
What a weird weapon the Spiked chain is...
Thanks all for the input and insight.
I would shy away from tripling the hp and hardness of the weapon because the toughest weapon on the common weapons etc. list is hardness 10, hp 20, and that is a single handed metal hafted weapon like a metal club or mace. I think busting one link in a chain is relatively more easy than going through a few inch thick rod of steel.
Actually, the chain's flexibility would make it much harder to sunder in most situations. Unless you first immobilize the chain against a hard surface (like a stone floor, for example) and THEN chop at it, the chain will simply "give way" and suffer very little damage.
Under ideal conditions, though, doubling (instead of tripling or quadrupling) the HP would be reasonable.
Actually, the chain's flexibility would make it much harder to sunder in most situations. Unless you first immobilize the chain against a hard surface (like a stone floor, for example) and THEN chop at it, the chain will simply "give way" and suffer very little damage.
Hey, that's a good point. Maybe I need to create a creature that duel wields bolt cutters *wacky expression to indicate the facetiousness of my comment*
Use an archer with ranged pin. (Would that even work? O.o Make an attack against the chain like you were going to disarm it, I guess...) Stick his chain to a wall/floor/tree/etc...
Heck, stick it to his chest. Let's see him use it then... lol...
Or, just make it so that he has to willingly give it up. A flooded dungeon for example... force him to decide on either his heavy unwieldy chain, or his life.
Personally, I see the chain making swimming more difficult anyway. I'd give him an additional -2 on the check...
Well, either my friend read this thread or had a scrooge style revalation, and has started carrying a backup heavy flail, which he uses nicely to bash and smash...
I still feel the urge to do nasty things to him from time to time, but its not personal, its just that he can take it better than some of the other players. I think he would be kinda amused to find his spiked chain sticking out of his chest via arrows *evil grin* or going head to head with a hook horror monk.
I will still go for the sunder at some future date, just to be evil, but I think he has, for the moment, learned his lesson... Thanks again for all the creative input!