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Upon reading part of the first installment of STAP today, I noticed something new (new to me) in the stat blocks. *Elite* Human Expert, *Elite* Human Aristocrat, and so on...
What is the Elite part, where does it come from, what book?
I know it's probably right in front of my face, but I am missing it anyway.
Thanks.
BTW To you guys at Paizo... and Dungeon specifically... damn you're good! Keep up the great work!
Krome, I believe it indicates that the creature/NPC has the elite array for ability scores as opposed to the usual nonelite array (see pg 290 of the Monster Manual). Compare some of the ability scores of NPCs and you'll see the difference. Pretty much it makes them slightly more challenging.
That refers to the creature's ability array--i.e. nonelite is 13, 12, 10, 9, 8 while elite is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
You'll find this in the Monster Manual, in the section on Improving Monsters...here's a link to the SRD section for reference:
EDIT: steve beat me by 6 seconds, but I got a link in! ;^)
I should pop in here and note as an addendum that standard array is 10, 11, 10, 11, 10, 11 or the reverse - nonelite is not standard for creatures, just very close.
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I should pop in here and note as an addendum that standard array is 10, 11, 10, 11, 10, 11 or the reverse - nonelite is not standard for creatures, just very close.
Thank ya'll much. I've never bothered to use those before. 99.99% of the time my NPCs don't actually NEED stats :) My stat block usually consists of name, class, level, 2-3 skills of note, quirks, and where they can be found. On the almost never chance they will be in combat then I just do the numbers and such on the fly :)
Even the cannonfodder don't get complete work ups. Class, level, 2-3 skills, 2-3 feats, AC, HP, Attack Bonus, Saves. And how much gold they are carrying, let's not forget the gold, now.
Only villains get complete stat blocks. :) And they are customized to the Nth degree.
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So this makes me wonder...
How many people actually use the fully detailed stat blocks as provided by Dungeon?
For cannonfodder NPCs I would be perfectly happy with abbreviated combat stats.
racial info, class and level, AC, HP, Attacks, Speed, Saves, Init, etc, and LOOT, let's not for the loot now, ya'll.
For NonCombat NPCs, that is the barmaid, the cook, the general city folk, etc, Just give me name, elite or whatever race, class and level, a few skills of note, quirks, money and locations.
An example NC NPC (NonCombat NPC)
Brunhilda NonElite Human Expert Level 4, Profession (lawer) 7, Sense Motive 6, Diplomacy 6, long flowing hair gets in her way; speaks in short distracted sentences; found at court house, office, and research library, 100gold
What do you think? Can Paizo save some space with stat blocks that we just don't need?
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An example NC NPC (NonCombat NPC)
Brunhilda NonElite Human Expert Level 4, Profession (lawer) 7, Sense Motive 6, Diplomacy 6, long flowing hair gets in her way; speaks in short distracted sentences; found at court house, office, and research library, 100gold
my groups know that anyone with that profession HAS to be of evil alignment though, so he woud be attacked on principle by the good clerics....
It looks to me like they're already doing this--I don't see any stat blocks in TiNH that aren't for folks that could be involved in combat (Lavinia could get involved in the iron cobra fight). Then, in the Backdrop: Sasserine article the NPCs are listed as Name (Alignment gender race class/level) with some descriptive text.
I don't see anything for the "fodder" like Vark's Thugs or the generic Lotus Dragon Thieves that could be cut--I need Abilities to know how spells (ray of enfeeblement, etc.) work vs. them. Need Languages to see how spells like Command work out...
my groups know that anyone with that profession HAS to be of evil alignment though, so he woud be attacked on principle by the good clerics....
That could make sailing anywhere difficult, needing the profession(sailor) skill to operate a boat.
my groups know that anyone with that profession HAS to be of evil alignment though, so he woud be attacked on principle by the good clerics....That could make sailing anywhere difficult, needing the profession(sailor) skill to operate a boat.
Have faith my young apprentice. The gods weave as the gods will. Other generic fantasy rips. God will watch out for them.
And Lo, Kord came down and said, "No, pull the thing to your right. More, more, OK. Now take the wheel, turn left..."
Excuse me for dredging up this old thread, but it popped up when I did a forum search when I was planning on asking the same question about the "elite" tag on Lavinia and Vark.
However, I have a lingering question that wasn't answered here: Does giving these two an elite stat range cancel out the -1 to their CR for having an NPC class?
By all rights, a 2nd level warrior would be a CR1 encounter. Does having those higher traits now make them the equivelent of PCs?
My main concern is that I was thinking of offering my player PCs a boost by allowing them a free level of an NPC class in addition to their PC class level. My thinking was that they'd still be the equivelant of APL1 because the NPC class levels are -1 to the APL. At the same time, I figured it'd give them a slight boost with some extra hit points, skill points, maybe some spells or attack bonuses.
If I gave them each an NPC level with their "elite" PC ability scores, would I really be effectively creating 2nd level characters after all?
Creative Director
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An elite character with NPC class levels would indeed effectively negate his/her CR penalty for having NPC levels. According to the rules, at least. Of course, CR is nowhere near as exact a number as it should be. No way a 21st level human commoner is the same threat level as a balor, for example.
I think that granting the PCs a free level in an NPC class is a pretty cool way to give them a boost and some extra hit points, but I'd also consider ignoring that NPC class level when handing out XP. At higher levels, if you treat a commoner 1/wizard 18 as a 19th level character (which is technically correct)... he'll be a lot less powerful than he should be for a 19th level character.
An elite character with NPC class levels would indeed effectively negate his/her CR penalty for having NPC levels. According to the rules, at least. Of course, CR is nowhere near as exact a number as it should be. No way a 21st level human commoner is the same threat level as a balor, for example.
I think that granting the PCs a free level in an NPC class is a pretty cool way to give them a boost and some extra hit points, but I'd also consider ignoring that NPC class level when handing out XP. At higher levels, if you treat a commoner 1/wizard 18 as a 19th level character (which is technically correct)... he'll be a lot less powerful than he should be for a 19th level character.
Actually big guy, I am inclined to flat out ignore a single NPC level in lines with the "CR" rules - since an NPC with NPC levels counts as 1 CR lower, I discount the NPC level pretty much entirely for XP purposes for any PCs that take an NPC level. Amazingly, none have done so thusfar.
I tend to use the same principle across the board - had a player want to play a kobold with PC class levels, told him he had a -2 level adjustment (instead of the -3 CR a kobold with NPC class levels gets). Of course, he died horribly anyway, but had he survived to 4th level, his XP earnings per session would have shot through the roof.
An elite character with NPC class levels would indeed effectively negate his/her CR penalty for having NPC levels. According to the rules, at least. Of course, CR is nowhere near as exact a number as it should be. No way a 21st level human commoner is the same threat level as a balor, for example.
I think that granting the PCs a free level in an NPC class is a pretty cool way to give them a boost and some extra hit points, but I'd also consider ignoring that NPC class level when handing out XP. At higher levels, if you treat a commoner 1/wizard 18 as a 19th level character (which is technically correct)... he'll be a lot less powerful than he should be for a 19th level character.
I am preparing to DM STAP and have essentially done this for my characters. I am calling it a 0th level and it has no effect on any xp earnings or level advancement. The benefits are 4 HP, 6+Int bonus skill points to be used on Profession, Craft, Knowledge(local) and Language skills, and one regional (or district in STAP) feat.
I don't think it will have too much of an effect on the game after about 3rd level, but it will likely increase survivability until then.
Cheers!
I am preparing to DM STAP and have essentially done this for my characters. I am calling it a 0th level and it has no effect on any xp earnings or level advancement. The benefits are 4 HP, 6+Int bonus skill points to be used on Profession, Craft, Knowledge(local) and Language skills, and one regional (or district in STAP) feat.I don't think it will have too much of an effect on the game after about 3rd level, but it will likely increase survivability until then.
Cheers!
Cool. Consider doing an "introductory encounter" with each player's character. It should probably be something related to their 1st-level choice for classes, maybe as a nice justification for their adventuring role.
Say the zero-level halfling is dirt poor on the streets in Azure District, and has to figure out how to feed his bedridden mother. Well, looks like if he can't steal that delicious-looking swordfish the Whaler's Guild was going to offer up to Procan, he--and his mama--might starve. Rogue, anyone?
Cool. Consider doing an "introductory encounter" with each player's character. It should probably be something related to their 1st-level choice for classes, maybe as a nice justification for their adventuring role.
In addition to giving a little oomph to their 1st level characters, I was also going to treat it as a reward for a good backstory.
The plan is to let them make their characters and when they present their backstories, I, as DM, will give them the NPC class that I think they were talking about.
A character with ties to the community or exciting history might deserve to be an expert, aristocrat, or warrior. "Hi, I'm Baub the fighter" would be lucky to rate a level of commoner.
I am preparing to DM STAP and have essentially done this for my characters. I am calling it a 0th level and it has no effect on any xp earnings or level advancement. The benefits are 4 HP, 6+Int bonus skill points to be used on Profession, Craft, Knowledge(local) and Language skills, and one regional (or district in STAP) feat.I don't think it will have too much of an effect on the game after about 3rd level, but it will likely increase survivability until then.
Cheers!
Cool. Consider doing an "introductory encounter" with each player's character. It should probably be something related to their 1st-level choice for classes, maybe as a nice justification for their adventuring role.
Say the zero-level halfling is dirt poor on the streets in Azure District, and has to figure out how to feed his bedridden mother. Well, looks like if he can't steal that delicious-looking swordfish the Whaler's Guild was going to offer up to Procan, he--and his mama--might starve. Rogue, anyone?
Thats very similar to what I am doing. I like to work with the players to create their backstory. In my general campaigns I use this information to set up subplots and to foreshadow my main story arc where possible. My goal is to give them stake in the campaign early. In the case of STAP, I am going thru the same process with the target being an event in the characters life that makes them stand out in Sasserines public eye briefly and the final goal the invitation from Lavinia. From there I plan to let the STAP continue to draw the party in. Of the two characters I have started backs on, both have the STAP plotline foreshadowed. If I end up writing a Campaign Journal, I may include my backs as an intro.
In principle I like the idea of players writing up their own characters, and being rewarded for good work. The problems I have with basing the 0th level class base on this 'performance' is that since not every player has the desire or time to write up an elaborate back there is some inequity if one only gets a commoner class versus another getting an expert or warrior class. Also, if the player has no foreknowledge of the setting and surroundings, their back may not 'fit'. Finally, I made my 0th level a hybrid of commoner and expert, essentially to ensure that the Saves and stuff like that wouldn't interfere with normal level advancement but still have more skill points than a plain commoner class.
Cheers!
The problems I have with basing the 0th level class base on this 'performance' is that since not every player has the desire or time to write up an elaborate back there is some inequity if one only gets a commoner class versus another getting an expert or warrior class.
To be honest, where I see the weakness of my plan is not in difference in creativity, but in "poor" selection of backstory.
My standards aren't so high that someone who only says "I'm the son of one of Sasserine's noble families" won't get aristocrat. He's still tying himself into the setting and that's what I'm trying to reward.
Where it looks to be unfair is for the player who has a good background that just honestly describes him as a commoner.
My instinct, however, is to say "dude, I just gave you free hit points. Shut up."
Something that one might want to consider is that the NPC classes are no where near equal. Aristocrat is almost good enough to be a PC class. Thats fine and all but if I'm picking up an npc class that's where I'm heading. With one player this is probably no problem - when the entire party decides that the obvious answer is aristocrat - well that might be more of an issue. Especially if they do it every campaign or for every new character they bring in (for those of you who have a streak of Killer DM).