I've just finished running my group through TFoE and there's been a lot of moaning and complaining from my group that i'm being too harsh on them.
I think the thing they find most annoying is the swarm the party tactics described in the magazines (i.e. fight breaks about in room A, bad guys in rooms B, and C hear and come to attack). Just wondering if this is how everyone else ran their dungeons in AoW and what their PC's reactions were.
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I know exactly where you're coming from. The tactics are a little too harsh, but in an equally harsh answer, it's exactly how it should be. When a leader or big enemy is facing the PC's, but they haven't dealt with the other guards, then they will, more than likely, hear the battle and come to assist. The "kill the leader and get out" tactic is sound one, but it leaves the PC's greiviously open to an attack from all sides.
If this happens again, and they say, at least in general terms, "let's go for the leader! Killing him will demoralize the rest!", gently remind them of TFoE and how much success that gleaned.
In EoBK, where this issue is an incredibly important one, make sure that they don't do anything stupid or such. When they are level 5 and there are thirty CR 3 lizard folk waiting to attack, it should sink in pretty fast that the "kill the leader and get out" method will not cut it. One, the leader isn't in Blackwall Keep. Second, to reiterate, there are 30 lizardfolk dressed to kill!
Lastly, if the PC's don't have any idea where to go, and they are close or in blackwall keep, have one of the guards make an observation on the missing people from the keep. Or maybe have a lizardfolk come in capture someone while the PC's and the guard are talking. These are ways to avoid railroading.
Still, regardless of your decisions, it's ultimately up to your players to decide exactly what to do and when. Tactics too harsh? Yes. Not reasonable? No.
The fighting is very heavy through out the whole campaign. If you don't have at least 5 good combat characters you will run into trouble.
Probalby the harshest part to watch for is how deadly some of the encounters are. For example, CR 13's against a group of 9th level characters, right after a handful of 10's and 11's means there probalby low on resources going into the fights.
Try to break things up a bit to give the group more rest. Split up locations into seperate areas to let the PC's be able to take a believable breather between some fights. That way they don't have to sleep in the hornet's nest actually.
I have run this adveture twice now, and one group had only one fighter in it, so they were forced to devise group tactics, and relay on summon spells. The thing was that group did better than the warriors.
I find it all great fun though, and have throughly enjoyed running it both times. We had two PC's die from stupid actions, but mostly the group was capable, because they always posted something to help themselves, simple first level spells, Alarm at the entrance so they had time to prepare for invasion, etc.
You must remember, your not the only one with tactical abilities, your Players are as well.
They also thought the following was harsh of me...
The entrance to the Grimlock cheiftain's lair is only 5 ft wide, and he happened to roll a good initiative. So I had him cast Hold Person on the first PC, thus blocking the other ones in the hallway. Then one of the flunky grimlocks went and delivered a coup de gras against the held PC (who failed his save vs the spell and vs the CdG).
Is stuff like that too harsh? or should you play intelligent bad guys to their most lethal/effective potential?
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They also thought the following was harsh of me...
The entrance to the Grimlock cheiftain's lair is only 5 ft wide, and he happened to roll a good initiative. So I had him cast Hold Person on the first PC, thus blocking the other ones in the hallway. Then one of the flunky grimlocks went and delivered a coup de gras against the held PC (who failed his save vs the spell and vs the CdG).
Is stuff like that too harsh? or should you play intelligent bad guys to their most lethal/effective potential?
Actually, the rules do say one can freely move through a square occupied by a friend as long as you do not end your move in that square. The held guy would not have stopped a friend from passing through.
And no, you should be harsh and play your NPCs smart. I would have done a couple coup de grace so far. It is the smart thing to do.
It was stated some time ago that the first two or three parts were meat grinders. Eric said so himself. Characters gettign out of Diamond Lake alive should feel special.
They also thought the following was harsh of me...
The entrance to the Grimlock cheiftain's lair is only 5 ft wide, and he happened to roll a good initiative. So I had him cast Hold Person on the first PC, thus blocking the other ones in the hallway. Then one of the flunky grimlocks went and delivered a coup de gras against the held PC (who failed his save vs the spell and vs the CdG).
Is stuff like that too harsh? or should you play intelligent bad guys to their most lethal/effective potential?
I did the same thing in HoHR. Player's didn't complain one bit.
A good DM should have his players showing up to game night wearing DEPENDS undergarments.
I make sure that any and all guests in my home wear Depends. Not that I've had someone soil a seat cushion... I just like the crunchy sound folks make when they walk around in adult diapers not to mention an inner joy I feel when denying a guest directions to the bathroom.
I think the thing they find most annoying is the swarm the party tactics described in the magazines (i.e. fight breaks about in room A, bad guys in rooms B, and C hear and come to attack). Just wondering if this is how everyone else ran their dungeons in AoW and what their PC's reactions were.
That's what makes TFoE actually a tough module; if you try to just waltz through it, your party will get cut to pieces. I was actually harsher than you, hitting the party with the cultists AND guards one round after fighting the bell skeletons before unleashing the Dire Boar. (all applicable listen checks were made. We nearly experienced TPK TWICE in that first room in the Hextor wing after the party, so don't feel bad. My justification is that the party eseentially assaulted a church that uses the tactics of a military encampment. If you just try to muscle through without either subterfuge or hit-and fade tactics, the overwhelming numbers will get you. This scenario is only an issue in the Hextor wing (lots o maze walls or natural caverns tend to muffle sound). MY PCs almost stopped playing Age of Worms after the lashing in that one room, so again, don't feel bad.
These things are hard to judge from a distance; to me, it sounds like your players expect something like a computer game rather than something that makes sense. The tactics you've used are what makes sense, from the bad-guy's point of view - it's not like these are mindless undead or stupid / instinctive animals, for the most part they are intelligent, battle-hardened creatures. Players who complain that their opponents are being played too smart really need to grow up and play smarter themselves :-)
When I ran it, the temple of Hextor was all done in two massive battles, with a big pause and shout-off in the middle. Difficult for my players, yes. Realistic, yes. Did my group survive? Yes, with good play including reasonable caution shown. And they certainly learned a lot too. Like I meant it when I said I'd be running a gritty, realistic style of campaign.
Good luck dude, sounds like your group needs a bit of a chat about expectations...
I do this constantly in my own campaign. I'm pretty sure that the PCs don't like it, but its intelligent. The PCs shouldn't be just strolling through the dungeon making any amount of noise they want without drawing attention to themselves. Battles are loud and if the bad guys hear a battle they are going to either come running themselves, set up an ambush, or start buffing themselves up. The "kill the big bad leader" ploy is only an option if you know that it will cause the lesser villains to run away.
I generally don't have my villains coup de grace downed characters when others are still fighting--unless there is a particular reason why the villain should ignore the still active adversary.
A held person can't block off a hallway, although it wouldn't be completely unreasonable to rule a medium character has to squeeze to get through, with associated penalties.
As far as "swarm tactics," I've played with DMs who didn't use them and felt it was sort of wierd that we're having a big throwdown and the guys in the room next door are still playing cards when we get there. I guess that's how video games work, but that's why I don't play them. When I DM, you'd better think about using stealth tactics if you want to invade the enemy fortress or the evil cultists' temple, otherwise you'd better be ready for whatever comes your way. As a 2nd or 3rd level character, you should still be intimidated by large crowds of mooks, unless you're stupid.
That being said, in some cases, killing the leaders ought to work. My party got trapped in the lizard king's throne room when the king perfidiously attacked them (they were trying to negotiate). When they killed the king and his lieutenant, I had Hishka call off the mooks, because that seemed to be indicated by the way Hishka was characterized in the module. So you don't always have to gang up, but certainly all of the cults in TFOE are organized to repel intruders--they don't even trust each other, so they're on their guard and have elaborate layered defenses. So yes, swarm tactics were appropriate.